The Effects of Calvinism

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Joseph, I am speaking of the passages in Romans 1 and 2.

Romans 1 says people are without excuse because they can see the creation, which reveals God to them. So they are without excuse for rejecting God.

But they cannot be condemned for rejecting Jesus, of whom they have never heard. And they cannot be condemned by the Law, of which they had no knowledge. So how will they be judged? Since "they are a law unto themselves" (2:14), that is, they have their own moral code, or sense of right and wrong, that is the basis of their judgment. And since they cannot adhere perfectly to their own law, they will be condemned.

That's what I was trying to say in my earlier post, but it needed setting up better.

Tom

Tom,

I am not a great Bible Scholar, but I think that I would argue that when they rejected God, they also, in turn, rejected Christ, who is God.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Tom Butler]

Joseph, I see your point. I'd like to pursue this, but we're getting off the OP,so I think I'll start a new thread on this subject and see where it leads.

 

[skypair]

Jarthur001,

First let me say that was a fine defense of Calvinism's 5 points as I have ever seen! Perhaps another thread we can talk about that.

However (topic at hand), my huge issue with Calvinism in the area of witness/missions is the same one we see in their churches -- that technically they have no authority to invite people to receive Christ as Savior. Have you ever noticed that?

Because they aver that no one can save themselves and praying to receive Christ would be classified as a "work," there just is no way to either invite someone nor to assure them thereby that they are saved. Are you familiar with ANY Reform or Calvinist church that invites people to receive Christ. Oh, I've seen them invite people to join the church, alright. And my neighbor (Presby) went on mission to Argentina recently and remarked about those who had "become Christians." Hmm. Baptist call it "receiving Christ," right?

AND YET salvation does demand one thing -- actionable BELIEF! Whereas belief is NOT a work, Rom 4:5, it is God's requirement for salvation. Yes, God gives faith, etc. but He does NOT "give" belief. This, I believe, is the key to getting Calvinists and free willers on the same page doing the same job in evangelism. There has to be an act of commitment to Christ, don't you think? A "becoming engaged" so to speak.

Calvinists way of "commitment" (just reading Boice last night on this) is "living a holy life." This PROVES that you are saved. Oh yeah? Don't many Catholics and Mormons and Muslims live "holy lives?" How holy? Doing what? God gives better "PROOFS" -- the indwelling Spirit, love of brethren AND OF THE WORD OF GOD, keep His commandments, etc -- 1John.

skypair

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

My new pastor is reformed in his theology and preaching and gives a salvation invitation at the end of his sermon. Calvinism says that we are incapable of choosing Jesus without the regenerating power of God working in our lives. Once that occurs, we will call on the Lord and he will save us. It begins with God working in the lives of the elect. Since we do not know beforehand who the elect are, we always leave the alter open for the Holy Spirit to convict people of sin and bring them to God.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[webdog]

Calvinism says that we are incapable of choosing Jesus without the regenerating power of God working in our lives.

...so we can't respond to God (Jesus) without God regenerating us prior? The Word is powerless to respond to on His own?

 

[skypair]

Joseph,

Well, I admire your pastor. And I find that more Reform preachers are theoretical Calvinists but practical Baptists/free will types mainly due to better knowledge of the scriptures.

The "regeneration" Calvinists talk about is not nearly as mystical as their paradigm makes it out to be, though. It is the Spirit that "quickens," gives life to, both the word and the flesh. If then, the Spirit enters with the word, there is the "quickening" of an individual who believes the word -- a giving of life and action to the flesh via the mind/spirit.

Breaking it down, we do this every day with things we hear. I hear there is a sale at Macy's -- I go right down and shop because I believe it! If I think it is a rumor (unbelief) or I think I don't need to shop (doing nothing about that belief), by and by the bird comes along and takes away the seed, my desire (Mt 13), right? It's not like God didn't spread that seed EVERYWHERE -- it's that some soil won't BELIEVE and RECEIVE the seed --- for it's own part, won't be "quickened."

skypair

 

[4His_glory]

And I find that more Reform preachers are theoretical Calvinists but practical Baptists/free will types mainly due to better knowledge of the scriptures.

It sounds like you are equating Baptist theology with free willism, yet historically the majority of Baptists have been calvinistic.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

...so we can't respond to God (Jesus) without God regenerating us prior? The Word is powerless to respond to on His own?

The Word of God is in no way of no effect to accomplish the will of God for his elect.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Joseph,

Well, I admire your pastor. And I find that more Reform preachers are theoretical Calvinists but practical Baptists

You say that as if the two ideas are mutually exclusive. Nothing could be further from the truth. As a matter of fact, John Piper, who claims to be a seven point Calvinist, would probably argue that preaching the Word of God and allowing the sovereign will of God to take its course is always the most practical and best outcome:

The "seventh" point, the best-of-all-possible worlds, means that God governs the course of history so that, in the long run, His glory will be more fully displayed and His people more fully satisfied than would have been the case in any other world. If we look only at the way things are now in the present era of this fallen world, this is not the best-of-all-possible worlds. But if we look at the whole course of history, from creation to redemption to eternity and beyond, and see the entirety of God's plan, it is the best-of-all-possible plans and leads to the best-of-all-possible eternities. And therefore this universe (and the events that happen in it from creation into eternity, taken as a whole) is the best-of-all-possible-worlds.

What does John Piper mean when he says that he is a "seven point" Calvinist?

/free will types mainly due to better knowledge of the scriptures.

All Calvinists I know teach free will inasmuch as lost man is free to follow the will of his master, which is the sin nature, and the elect / those whom God regenerates, are free to follow the will of their master, who is God.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[webdog]

The Word of God is in no way of no effect to accomplish the will of God for his elect.

Joseph Botwinick

Are you saying that Jesus is powerless?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Are you saying that Jesus is powerless?

Of course not.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[webdog]

Of course not.

Joseph Botwinick

Then what did your response mean?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

It meant exactly what it said.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[webdog]

It meant exactly what it said.

Joseph Botwinick

Thanks for the circular non answer. It's evident you don't even know what you mean.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Thanks for the circular non answer. It's evident you don't even know what you mean.

And it is evident that your reading comprehension skills are what we would call on the standardized tests in the public schools, below basic.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[webdog]

And it is evident that your reading comprehension skills are what we would call on the standardized tests in the public schools, below basic.

Joseph Botwinick

My reading skills are just fine, thank you. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones! "...in no way of no effect..."? What kind of sentence structure is that...below basic?

Do you wake up on the wrong side of the bed EVERY day?:tear:

 

[webdog]

Since Joseph won't elaborate on his post, anyone else like to untangle this mess of a sentence and explain what it means?

The Word of God is in no way of no effect to accomplish the will of God for his elect.

I read this to say that Christ only has power over His elect. Since my reading skills have been questioned, what exactly does this mean then?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

My reading skills are just fine, thank you. Do you wake up on the wrong side of the bed EVERY day?:tear:

Ok. I will attempt to give you the benefit of the doubt if you will read my statement again and then explain to me how I implied in any way that Jesus was powerless.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Since Joseph won't elaborate on his post, anyone else like to untangle this mess of a sentence and explain what it means?



I read this to say that Christ only has power over His elect. Since my reading skills have been questioned, what exactly does this mean then?

Ok. Now I think I understand your question. God's Word condemns the non-elect and redeems the elect. God is omnipotent and is over all supremely. Perhaps, I should have been more clear. My apologies.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Salamander]

Ok. Now I think I understand your question. God's Word condemns the non-elect and redeems the elect. God is omnipotent and is over all supremely. Perhaps, I should have been more clear. My apologies.

Joseph Botwinick

Isn't Jesus still the Word??

Jesus came not into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.raise: :Fish: raise:

Something WRONG with your theology.raying: