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The eternal purpose of Christ pt2
- Thread starter PreachTony
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Perhaps PT has taken his bag of marbles and went Home. It is easier to do that then to give a real answer I guess.
He had to eat grass because it was given to Daniel to state what God decreed would happen.
You will be driven away from people and will live with the wild animals; you will eat grass like the ox and be drenched with the dew of heaven. Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over all kingdoms on earth and gives them to anyone he wishes. The command to leave the stump of the tree with its roots means that your kingdom will be restored to you when you acknowledge that Heaven rules.[Dan. 4:25]
Immediately what had been said about Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled. He was driven away from people and ate grass like the ox. His body was drenched with the dew of heaven until his hair grew like the feathers of an eagle and his nails like the claws of a bird.[Dan. 4:33]
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Perhaps you should look at this way.
According to Calvinism (as we see it) has predestined all things. There is a certain number that will be elected to eternal life and a certain number reprobated to eternal damnation, and nobody can do anything about it. God's terms have now been set. Everything has been put into motion.
This of course, makes God:
1. the author of evil.
2. The Great Puppeteer, and we the puppets.
3. A monster.
That God would reprobate his own creation into the Lake of Fire even when they could have the opportunity and enablement to be saved is irreprehensible.
According to the non-Cal,
God may know all things for He is omniscient, but He does not force anyone against their will. He is not the author of evil. He gives free will within the scope of his own sovereignty.
After pouring out his love on the cross for the sins of all humanity: defeating sin, death, hell and Satan, he arose from the dead and sits at the right hand of the Throne of God, ever making intercession for the saints. So great is his love.
He does not delight in the death of the wicked.
His blood is sufficient to cover all the sins of all mankind of all ages.
But in order for man to go to heaven he must accept the free gift of God. Only then does the gift become efficacious.
God is perfectly just and fair in turning in to hell those who have rejected his son, out of their own will. The great love of the cross they have spurned and rejected is the greatest sin anyone could commit.
The Calvinist has God condemning his creation before the Fall ever happened, before man ever sinned.
The non-cal believes God does not condemn anyone until after he has rejected Christ. He himself is responsible for his own sin.
Which God is more a God of love. Who is more loving. How do you depict God? These are the questions that the non-Cal bring to the table.
Yet we can read [The Great Multitude in White Robes]
After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying: “Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!” Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?” I answered, “Sir, you know.”And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore,“they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence. ‘Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat down on them,’ nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; ‘he will lead them to springs of living water.’ ‘And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.’”[Rev. 9-17] Whether you see it my way or your way, we both see a number already settled. This was an account that has yet to happen in linear time, yet John saw it in heaven as an already done deal. It has yet to happen in time, but in eternity it is already determined. We both see a multitude of peoples that have already been in heaven as John laid it out for us.
This is not the way we see it, nor do we display Him in such a horrible fashion. God placed Adam and then took Eve from his rib and placed them in the Garden. He also placed in there two trees, the Tree of Life and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. In either camp, God knew the outcome. So if He knew the outcome before He uttered the first word to create all we see, then He had to desire the outcome, seeing the way it came to pass.
Man reprobated himself when Adam sinned, and his whole posterity, including you and I, were cutoff from God. That is why Christ came as a Man to repair that breach that separated us from God. The thing that needs to be noted is that man has no desire to serve God outside the Spirit's drawing. Mankind is running from His face and not to Him. I had no desire to serve Him until after He came and drew me. I did not want to go to hell, but my love of sin and self overrode that desire of not going to hell. The love of my sin and myself was greater than my fear of dying lost. God came and change that desire. I wanted to serve Him, and not suffer for eternity.
If God does not change their wills, they will not come. Sinners' wills are to themselves, to serve themselves, to love themselves, more than they do God. As Jesus stated "yet you refuse to come to me to have life."[Jn. 5:40] There was nothing stopping them from coming to Him. What I mean is God was not holding a hand to their face and pushing them away from Him. They were deafened to His words, they were blinded to His beauty, their sin filled hearts were hardened and could not receive His words. This was do to their sins. Their sins But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.[Isa. 59:2] This was they.
Agree.
Adam ruined that for us. If our wills are free then why did Jesus say "Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”?[Jn. 8:32] Our wills were not free. We were bound by sin and Satan as Paul stated For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin[Rom. 6:6] and then also But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you have come to obey from your heart the pattern of teaching that has now claimed your allegiance[Rom. 6:17] and then finally When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness.[Rom. 6:20] Satan had our allegiance and not God. Unless God comes and breaks that yoke that Satan has upon us, we can not exercise any move towards Him whatsoever. We are bound, ensnared, entangled in sin by Satan's yoke of bondage. We are Satan's slaves, in other words, mon ami.
Who is He making intercession for, again, monsieur? :thumbsup:
Agree.
It could, yes. It does not, but it could.
Ah yes. It is efficacious because it is received. You have that backwards. It being received by those who at one time opposed Him shows how efficacious it really is. You have the effect effecting the cause.
Well, you said that not everyone will hear the gospel. Without the gospel no one will be saved. I am sure we agree that no one is saved outside the gospel. Is He fair to cast them into hell, even though they never heard it?
That is another topic, mon ami. That is the supra- vs sub- lapsarian debate. God chose us in Christ before the creation of the world, He chose the sheep before the creation of the world. I rest in that.
You have God reacting to what man does as if He is sitting there wringing His hands. He already knows those who are going to heaven and to hell and does not have to wait. He is patient with the vessels of wrath only because He is not willing that any of His sheep will die lost.
Man is the sole person responsible.
The One who actually saves His sheep and not calls them and lets them die lost.
The One who actually saves His sheep and not calls them and lets them die lost.
He who actually saves His sheep and not calls them and lets them die lost.
He who actually save His sheep and not calls them and lets them die lost.
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savedbymercy
New Member
There is no such word as 'irreprehensible' but I certainly get your repugnant drift.
You are fashioned your own god.
The God reflected in the Bible is perfectly just in all He does.
No one can possibly blame Him for any perceived injustice.
People without the Spirit of God do not want to have anything to do with God.
You, a mere mortal have no right to judge God with any notion of unfairness --putting Him in the dock, as you are in the habit of doing.
God has the omnipotent authority to do anything He chooses with His own creation.
He has made them, given them breath and a host of benefits.
He has not chosen everyone for salvation.
There is no equal distribution of love that He dispenses over all humanity.
No one is without excuse. Everyone is a sinner deserving eternal torment.
The Lord does not force anyone to sin.
They are fully responsible for their own sin.
Their sin can be paid in one of two ways:
1) either Christ saves them by His sacrificial death
Or,
2) they pay for their sins eternally in the Lake of Fire.
I WAS fashioned by God, but perhaps you meant "Calvin fashioned his own God." according to his own precepts which he learned mostly from his mentor, Augustine, and not the Bible. Pity you follow him.
This is true according to the Bible; according to Calvinism I can't be so sure.
This is general statement which when absolutely stated as you have becomes false. This is demonstrated in Cornelius. Cornelius never heard the gospel until Peter came. He was unsaved previous to that time, and yet God answered his prayers.
You are in no position to take away from the attributes of God those attributes which he has given to man who is made in the image of God, and reflects his glory. This is how thwarted your view of God is. You demonstrate that you don't even know what his attributes are.
God has demonstrated that he cannot do anything he wants.
He cannot take his creation and destroy it with a world-wide Flood. It would make him a liar.
He must wait for an appointed time to destroy the world by fire.
You have no regard for: the promises of God, the attributes of God, the nature of God, etc. You portray him as a monster out of control who can do as he pleases. That is not the God of the Bible.
He chooses those who believe on His name.
"There is no one in this earth that God loves any more than you. You are the object of his love."
That statement is true no matter who it is said to. He equally loves each one of us alike.
True. The same holds true of you.
No, and yet we are accountable.
No one ever said that Christ doesn't save by his sacrificial death.
DHK correctly pointed out that 'irreprehensible' is indeed a word. It means blameless or innocent.
Therefore, when DHK said :"That God would reprobate his own creation into the Lake of Fire even when they could have the opportunity and enablement to be saved is irreprehensible." He meant that God is blameless for reprobating his own creation into the Lake of Fire.
Thanks for setting me straight on that DHK.
Therefore, when DHK said :"That God would reprobate his own creation into the Lake of Fire even when they could have the opportunity and enablement to be saved is irreprehensible." He meant that God is blameless for reprobating his own creation into the Lake of Fire.
Thanks for setting me straight on that DHK.
Your ignorance regarding Calvin is palpable.
You will have to demonstrate that any Calvinist here or elsewhere has complained about the injustice of God. You will not be able to do so. Therefore do not bear false witness.
I have done no such thing as you very well know. Your insincerity is quite evident.
By not adhering to DHKism? For nearly a decade on the BB I have demonstrated that what you have sinfully stated is absolutely false.
What you have just said ought to banish you from the BB. You are the out-of-control monster DHK. You should not be allowed to say such vile things.The administration should come down hard on you for it. If it was anyone else saying that kind of stuff --out they would go.
No, He does not. Does He love those who He hides saving truths from? Does He love those He does not know? Does He love those in Perdition?
DHK objected to this post of mine:"You have rattled off a number of untruths...statements deliberately made to slander someone else."
Well, I certainly don't want to distort what someone believes. If my statements above do not reflect what DHK believes then the opposite must be true.
Therefore:
Your understanding of God is not finite but quite biblical.
You think God's election is not at random.
You do not think God's love is equally spread out over everyone.
You think all people are depraved.
You think some people are drawn to the Lord.
You think some people have faith.
You think that someone who comes to saving faith is not of their own doing. It is of no consequence that they have keen perception, intelligence and ability. The Holy Spirit is not merely a witness but the agent of regeneration.
You believe that God does give saving faith.
You believe that a person without the Spirit of God is not a Christian.
It is instructive that DHK has said the above in response to my statement :"God has the omnipotent authority to do anything He chooses with His own creation."
How DHK can possibly extrapolate wickedness on my part and apply all the vile things he says about me from my statement is mystifying.
No, I will just admit that the word I was looking for was
"reprehensible."
http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/2263/is-irrehensible-or-irrehensibly-a-word
Let's just say that I believe I have a biblical understanding of God and leave it at that.
God's purpose in election is always according to the purpose for the believer, and has nothing to do with the unbeliever. For example he has chosen the elect "to be to the praise of His glory who first trusted Christ." This has nothing to do with electing some to salvation and others to damnation. And there is nothing random about it.
I stay as far away from the unbiblical concepts of Calvinistic election as I can. Sometimes what I portray as Calvinistic election you take as my position which is wrong.
God made man as an object of his love. There is no one on this earth that he doesn't love any more than the other. God does not play favorites. Rippon, you are not God's favorite pet.
And you don't? Or were you also born of a virgin?
When Christ died he drew all men to Himself. That was the purpose of the cross.
Faith is innate. All men have faith. The important thing to note about faith is that faith has an object. What is the object of your faith? Concerning salvation, if the object of your faith is not Christ you cannot be saved.
Faith is faith. The Bible doesn't use the term "saving faith."
Faith is not a work according to Rom.4:3-5.
Concerning the gospel, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
The ministry of the Holy Spirit is given in John 16:8-11.
Faith always precedes regeneration; it is not a product of it.
God does not give faith to the unregenerate. In the Bible faith is portrayed either as a spiritual gift or as fruit of the Spirit. God would never give either one to the unregenerate. He would no more give faith to the unregenerate than he would give the gift of miracles, the gift of healing, etc. Do the unsaved have all the spiritual gifts? Is that what you believe? Do they demonstrate all the fruit of the Spirit in their lives before salvation? Is that your belief? Then why faith?
Where did I say that?
When a person becomes saved the Spirit of God, by the power of Christ, comes and indwells him. (1Cor.6:19,20).
Clear enough.
I Timothy 3
This statement is trustworthy: If a man is reaching out to be an overseer,+ he is desirous of a fine work. 2 The overseer should therefore be irreprehensible,...
Yep, sure is a word! :laugh: Even the J.W.'s say so.
It just wasn't the one I was looking for.
DHK,
Here is why I believe we have no free will. When Adam sinned, he sold everyone of us out to sin. We are conceived an enemy with God seeing as Paul wrote The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.[Rom. 8:7] I would fall into the Traducianism camp.
http://www.theopedia.com/traducianism
God told Adam and Eve to “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it."[Gen. 1:28b] So they, and conversely all mankind, now create life. It is like trees. How do trees grow now? Does God plant them Himself, or do acorns fall and end up in the ground to bring forth another oak? Do we take saplings and plant them and allow them to grow? That is how trees grow now. Look at a peek-a-poo. Did God create a peek-a-poo or do a Pekinese and a poodle procreate to make them or did God create them? So God has rested from His labors since He entered into His Sabbath.
Now to get to my point. Seeing that we now create life via procreation, that shows that our sinfulness is passed down from our natural father, our dad. https://carm.org/why-wasnt-jesus-born-original-sin
So we possess the exact same will our first father, Adam, had post-fall. Our will is ensnared, enslaved, entangled in sin, our allegiance was to Satan, who was our master.
Here is where I think you faux pas, se tromper(err), DHK, in regards to us possessing the necessary faith that salvation requires. We are justified by faith, or better, justification by faith. I am sure we agree with that term, but disagree with how each views how we get there.
Here is theopedia's definition of and how justification works:
Justification
Justification is the doctrine that God pardons, accepts, and declares a sinner to be "just" on the basis of Christ's righteousness (Rom 3:24-26; 4:25; 5:15-21) which results in God's peace (Rom 5:1), His Spirit (Rom 8:4), and salvation. Justification is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ apart from all works and merit of the sinner (cf. Rom 1:18-3:28).
So if we possess this much needed faith even while sinners, unregenerate peoples, then we have pardoned ourselves, we are just on the basis of Christ's righteousness while unregenerate.
http://www.theopedia.com/justification
So if men's wills, as sinners, are free, then how are we referred to as slaves to sin?[Rom. 6:6, 16, 20, & 7:14, Jn. 8:34]
As Jesus stated Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.[Jn. 8:34]
Here is why I believe we have no free will. When Adam sinned, he sold everyone of us out to sin. We are conceived an enemy with God seeing as Paul wrote The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.[Rom. 8:7] I would fall into the Traducianism camp.
http://www.theopedia.com/traducianism
God told Adam and Eve to “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it."[Gen. 1:28b] So they, and conversely all mankind, now create life. It is like trees. How do trees grow now? Does God plant them Himself, or do acorns fall and end up in the ground to bring forth another oak? Do we take saplings and plant them and allow them to grow? That is how trees grow now. Look at a peek-a-poo. Did God create a peek-a-poo or do a Pekinese and a poodle procreate to make them or did God create them? So God has rested from His labors since He entered into His Sabbath.
Now to get to my point. Seeing that we now create life via procreation, that shows that our sinfulness is passed down from our natural father, our dad. https://carm.org/why-wasnt-jesus-born-original-sin
So we possess the exact same will our first father, Adam, had post-fall. Our will is ensnared, enslaved, entangled in sin, our allegiance was to Satan, who was our master.
Here is where I think you faux pas, se tromper(err), DHK, in regards to us possessing the necessary faith that salvation requires. We are justified by faith, or better, justification by faith. I am sure we agree with that term, but disagree with how each views how we get there.
Here is theopedia's definition of and how justification works:
Justification
Justification is the doctrine that God pardons, accepts, and declares a sinner to be "just" on the basis of Christ's righteousness (Rom 3:24-26; 4:25; 5:15-21) which results in God's peace (Rom 5:1), His Spirit (Rom 8:4), and salvation. Justification is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ apart from all works and merit of the sinner (cf. Rom 1:18-3:28).
So if we possess this much needed faith even while sinners, unregenerate peoples, then we have pardoned ourselves, we are just on the basis of Christ's righteousness while unregenerate.
http://www.theopedia.com/justification
So if men's wills, as sinners, are free, then how are we referred to as slaves to sin?[Rom. 6:6, 16, 20, & 7:14, Jn. 8:34]
As Jesus stated Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.[Jn. 8:34]
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