The eternal purpose of Christ pt2

[Iconoclast]

DKK :"One of the most dangerous things a person can do is to place his theology in an opinioned translation of the Bible. This is one man's opinion of how the Bible should be translated. It is not inspired. He is fallible. To stake your doctrine on this one man's translation is foolish." (12/10/2012)

God is angry with you for repeating the same old untruth about him DHK.

The Bible clearly tells us that God is angry. It is not his sole quality --but it is a biblical fact. For you to compare His anger with that of a human is faulty. Human anger is normally sinful --though there is a place for righteous anger.

God does not "lose control" as you put it. He is always in control. As a matter of fact --He is sovereign over everything and everyone.

The Scriptures tell us that God is a jealous God. Are you going to also claim that He is not a jealous God?

Your understanding of God is too finite and unbiblical.

You think God's election is at random.

You think God's love is equally spread out over everyone.

You think all people are not depraved.

You think all people are drawn to the Lord.

You think that all people have faith.

You think that someone comes to a saving faith that it is all of their own doing --because of their keen perception, intelligence and ability although the Holy Spirit may have been a witness to it.

You think God doesn't give anyone saving faith.

You think a person without the Spirit of God is a Christian.

I could go on and on.

Do you actually think DHK? You need to submit yourself to the actual authority of the Word of God.

:applause::applause::applause::applause:

 

[SovereignGrace]

God is love.

That is the favorite quote of the LGBT community, mon ami.

It is evident in Luke 14:26 that when Christ commands his own disciples to hate their parents and brothers and sisters, that he is not telling them to literally hate them. It is a comparison of degrees. One's love for Christ should be so great that the love for the family would seem as hate in comparison. IOW, the meaning is simply "love less."

He was telling them that they had to forsake all and follow Him, even if it meant to leave their families behind. There was one who said Then a teacher of the law came to him and said, “Teacher, I will follow you wherever you go.” Jesus replied, “Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head.” Another disciple said to him, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.” But Jesus told him, “Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead.” He was calling Jews to leave all they knew behind, just like God did Abram. There were many who rejected Him as their Messiah, and I am sure those that chose to follow Christ, lost their whole family in the process. It would be like someone leaving the RCC. I am sure many had their family disown them. But God is a 'Me and only Me God."

There is more than one meaning to a word. Context often gives that meaning. That is what I keep repeating. What is the definition? Look at the context! Why do you guys keep ignoring context??

Yes. God hates sin. God hates all workers of iniquity. But that is poetical language, to you. To me, it is the inspired words of God and ALL SCRIPTURE is All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.[2 Tim. 3:16] Even the poetical language verses fit that bill, mon ami.

Of course everyone has faith;

Not per the bible.

even demons have faith.

When it was too late.

The Bible states as much.

Yes the demons believed and shuddered. They believed because they saw God, being in heaven with Him before they rebelled. That is not faith. Faith is believing in something that you can not prove, have not seen. I have not seen God, I can not prove God exists, yet, without a shadow of doubt, I know He exists. None of us can prove God exists. Too many will not believe anything they can not see. None of us can see God.

But not all faith with save.

Then there IS more than one kind of faith. I thought you said 'faith is faith'? See what I mean. You will say something in one post and then flip ends on another.

It is the object of "faith" that saves.

Uhhhh, grace saves. Faith is the conduit with which it travels.

The object of one's faith must be Christ. He is the only one who can be saved.

No disagreement here.

I simply stated what the Bible said; the very words of Christ, and astoundingly, the Calvinists here reject the words of Christ!!

No, you mangle what Christ said. You 'copied and pasted' and then mangled.

Here they are again:
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

--I didn't write those words: Christ said them!

If someone is not baptized in water before they die, they die lost? That is the literal interpretation, mon ami.

Do you believe them?

Yes, I believe every word in the bible, just not your mangling of them.

The basis of one's salvation is their faith;

One's basis of one's salvation better be Christ. People have faith in themselves, in their parents, in their companion, in their abilities, &c. That is a carnal faith...those who believe in vain.[1 Cor. 15:2] That faith comes from 'self'. Saving faith comes from God.

the basis of their condemnation is their unbelief.

Unless God wroughts a work in their hearts, they will remain in unbelief.

It is that simple.

Yes your theology is.

Those are the words of Christ.

Yes they are, but you mangle them.

You either believe him or not.

Unless God first works in their hearts, they will never believe.

What part of that verse do you need me to explain to you?

I am quite good here, thank you.

You like to play your word games.
Can he also create a rock so big he cannot lift? If he can't he is not omnipotent is he? These are the word games you are playing--the same basic word games that atheists play. Sad!

You have said God will not save someone against their will, yet God is not willing any should perish. That means man's will is stronger than God's. How can you not see the logical end of your theology, mon ami???

Yes, God is omnipotent.

Yes.

Yes, God can save all and everyone.

Yes.

However, God will save, as he promised, all who come to him; all who believe on his son.

Yes.

He has said that in his word over and over again. Even a verse so simple and common as John 3:16 teaches this very simple truth.

God will save all who come to Him. Yes. But why do they come to Him?

Again I ask you, what is so difficult about this verse that you need further explanation on:
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

And the literal interpretation is those who are not baptized die lost. The CoC love that verse and also Acts 2:38.

The doctrine of regeneration has never changed, especially since Pentecost. The Book of Acts is a history of the acts of the Apostles. It is a transition period for the nature of the churches, for the decline of spiritual gifts, etc. Salvation for the NT believer from Acts 2 onward has never changed.

Yes. No disagreement here.

What Peter preached in the house of Cornelius:
Act 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
--is the same message that we preach today. It was under that message that Cornelius got regenerated/saved. That is what the account says.

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
--The expression "heard the word" is the same expression used in Acts 2:41:
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
--They received the word and were saved.

To be honest, I have not really studied Acts that much. I have been doing an intensive study on Romans. I need to study this book a lot more before I can truly engage you or anyone for that matter.

This is the ridiculous way that you portray God--angry, mad, out of control--and the world sits back and laughs. Who will believe in a God like this they ask themselves. Not me. That is not my God. You have a very disturbed view of God.

God is not out of control, go berserk, &c. But He did say vengeance was His.

vengeance: infliction of injury, harm, humiliation, or the like, on a person by another who has been harmed by that person; violent revenge; an act or opportunity of inflicting such trouble; the desire for revenge.


The word used for 'vengeance' from Rom. 12:19:

revenging, vengeance, punishment

That is the same greek word used in 2 Thess. 1:8, by the way.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Time out!! DHK, time out!!

We are both getting unseemly somewhat in our postings. Let us not go down that road. I will bow out before I do. I am having a hard time following what you are conveying.

You have said before that 'faith is faith' and then turned right around and said 'but not all faith will save'. How can I reconcile those two trains of thoughts mon ami?


You say God is love, and I agree with you. But you say God loves everybody and then turns around on the day of Judgment and gives the worst possible punishment that could ever be by casting them into the lake of fire forever.

If you had an unruly child, I am sure you would go to the ends of the earth and use every fund necessary to help them out, even give your life for them. But at the end of your rope, would you toss them into a fiery furnace? Absolutely not. Even though you did all you could do to save them, you would never get that disgusted with them. Yet, God will do that to many of His own creation. That is not any 'out of control' God, a berserk God, but a righteous and holy God who must punish sin. He either punishes sin in the sinner or the Sinbearer.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Adam Clarke:

Psalms 5:5

The foolish shall not stand - He is a fool and a madman who is running himself out of breath for no prize, who is fighting against the Almighty; this every wicked man does; therefore is every wicked man a fool and a madman.

Thou hatest all workers of iniquity - Some sin now and then, others generally; some constantly, and some labor in it with all their might. These are the Workers of iniquity. Such even the God of infinite love and mercy hates. Alas! what a portion have the workers of iniquity! the hatred of God Almighty!

Thomas Aquinas

Psalms 5:4-6


Verses 4-6

First is declared that a person watches. Those who are hindered from hearing are exposed, and their obstacles. Such impediments are evil persons. Hence is declared: "And watch." (Verse 3). Because: "For thou art not a God who delights in wickedness. Evil may not sojourn with you." (Verse 4).

Here two ideas are noted. First, evil persons are excluded from good persons. Second, evil persons lead themselves into the affliction of punishments. There: "You hate all evil-doers. You destroy those who speak lies; the Lord abhors bloodthirsty and deceitful men." (Verses 5-6).

Concerning evil persons excluded from good persons, God is here mentioned. It speaks of God like to a certain good person, who seeks out some persons, and abhors others.

There may be a threefold gradation of all persons. First, among some persons the sin one is committing as pleasing. Second, for another person the personality of some persons is pleasing. Third, for some persons neither the sin or the person sinning is pleasing. And all such good persons view this threefold situation without any indignation.

However, such a threefold gradation may have no reference to God. For sin neither pleases God nor does God look down with any familiarity upon a sinner. Thus, within the first gradation (the sin one is committing is pleasing), "...and watch" (Verse 3)."...for thou art not a God who delights in wickedness." (Verse 4).

Regarding the second grade (the personality of the person sinning is pleasing), there is said: "Evil may not sojourn with thee." (Verse 4). For: "No man who practices deceit will dwell in my house." (Psalm 101:7). 'And: "I hate the company of evildoers, and I will not sit with the wicked." (Psalm 26 [25]:5).

As to the third grade (for some persons neither the sin, nor the person sinning, is pleasing). For: "The boastful may not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers." (Verse 5). Namely, all sinners, before thy eyes, lack approval. For: "You who are of purer eyes than behold evil and cannot look on wrong, why do you look on faithful men and are silent when the wicked swallow up the man more righteous than he?" (Hab 1:13).

Here is shown in what many evil persons are led to their punishments. Such is exposed in a threefold order. Since, there is a triple gradation of ways a person hates another person.

First, a person holds another person in hatred, by wishing evil to one in their heart. Second, hatred may be carried out by an infliction of punishments. Third, as when a person is punished, yet the one punishing will reconcile the person punished to himself. Thus, God first hates, so is said: "You hate all evildoers" (Verse 5). Because: "Equally hateful to God, are the ungodly man and his ungodliness." (Wis 14:9).

Yet, on the contrary: "How would anything have endured if thou hast not willed it? Or how would anything not called forth by thee have been preserved?" (Wis 11:25). I (Thomas) reply: Whatsoever God, the Creator, creates, he never hates. God did not either create or produce evils. Yet, if God's creature wills, or insists on evils, then God, the Creator, does indeed allow the evils of such a creature. But God allows such evil-doing creatures, insofar as they do not reform or repent. Thus, God the Creator ordains his divine abhorrence, or hatred, by his punishments. Even, God, the Creator, infers an evil creature's guilt. So is declared in Verse 6: "You destroy those who speak lies. The Lord abhors bloodthirsty and deceitful men." For: "And a lying mouth destroys the soul." (Wis:1:11).

Note here that all lying is threefold. First, lying is pernicious, as it results in harm. Such harm can be a spiritual or a temporal harm to a person. For instance, in relation to a pernicious teaching, or doctrine. Second, lying can be jocose or humorous. Such harmless lying is done to delight some person. Third, lying can be official. Here a person lies to profit either mentally, or temporally. And one must here understand Augustine, who claims: "There is no official lying, minus a sin: Thus, if anyone lies to free another person, such is not a good deed." And, the Apostle Paul states: "And why do evil that good may come? - as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just." (Romans 3:8). Any evil could occur even through a good deed. So, an "official lie," is often times a venial fault. And a jocose lie is also a venial fault. Thus, truly the pernicious lie, resulting in real harm, is a mortal fault and sin, and is so understood here in Verse 6.

The Lord God abhors evils' in a third manner by inferring evil to a sinner; who is not yet reconciled to God. Hence is said: "The Lord abhors bloodthirsty and deceitful men." (Verse 6). Because, God abominates the evil that one does, even in their thought. Thus is declared: "bloodthirsty and deceitful men," whose thought is to shed blood. "For their feet run to evil and they make haste to shed blood" (Prov 1:16). Also: "And Shimer said as he cursed, 'Begone, begone, you man of blood, you worthless fellow.'" (2 Sam 16:7).

A sad person is one who speaks amid sorrow. In Verse 6, one proceeds orderly, since a person first simply wills evil within their thoughts of evil. God abhors such a person, When such persons continue to follow into evils, they then provoke God to punish them. As they persist in such evil, God is abandoned by them. Because: "The way of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord, but he loves him who pursues righteousness."

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Isn't it a wonderful truth.
God made all the world guilty before him, that all the world might see their guiltiness. In so doing all the world would see their need for a Savior.

Brother DHK,

All the world does not see their need for a savior, did the Pharisee who went to the temple and cited all his good works of what he believed he had done for God and thanked God that he was not like the publican see his need for a savior like the publican did?

 

[Rippon]

This is not worthy of an answer.

Hmm...

Protestant had said :

God is holy.

God's holiness will not allow sin to go unpunished.

Yes, God is love.

He loves holiness and righteousness and justice.

This is why He will judge the reprobate in holiness, righteousness and justice when He casts them all into the Lake of Fire.
_________________________________________________________________

And you have the temerity to tell him that his post was unworthy of an answer.

Answer him point-by-point. I don't see how any Christian can possibly object to anything he said. How can you claim to be a missionary yet deny such fundamental propositions from the Word of God?

You owe an answer, or rather an apology for your non-answer.

 

[DHK]

Hmm...

Protestant had said :

God is holy.

God's holiness will not allow sin to go unpunished.

Yes, God is love.

He loves holiness and righteousness and justice.

This is why He will judge the reprobate in holiness, righteousness and justice when He casts them all into the Lake of Fire.
_________________________________________________________________

And you have the temerity to tell him that his post was unworthy of an answer.

Answer him point-by-point. I don't see how any Christian can possibly object to anything he said. How can you claim to be a missionary yet deny such fundamental propositions from the Word of God?

You owe an answer, or rather an apology for your non-answer.

No apology was needed since that is not the entirety of his post.
No need for you to be deceitful.

1. God is holy

Of course God is holy; who ever said otherwise.

2. God's holiness will not allow sin to go unpunished.

I never said he wouldn't.

3. Yes, God is love.

It is a statement in the Bible.

4. He loves holiness and righteousness and justice.

No is holy, righteous, and just.[/quote]

5. This is why He will judge the reprobate in holiness, righteousness and justice when He casts them all into the Lake of Fire.

This is a foolish statement to make. The word "reprobate" is not found in the Bible, but in the works of Calvin and perhaps Augustine.

As I asked SG:
What part of Jesus' words do you not understand?

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

At one point in your life you did not believe.
Did that make you part of the "reprobate"?
Had you continued in your unbelief would you then be part of the reprobate?

Salvation is by faith and faith alone.

 

[DHK]

Brother DHK,

All the world does not see their need for a savior, did the Pharisee who went to the temple and cited all his good works of what he believed he had done for God and thanked God that he was not like the publican see his need for a savior like the publican did?

So what is your point? Many see their need for a Savior and still reject him.
Did Christ die for them? Yes. He died for all. Or do you question his omnipotence, his ability to die for all? Did he not have enough blood to share?
It is a fairly weak God that you portray. What do you say to others if you witness?
Christ died for the elect, but I am not sure if your one of them. His blood may not cover you. He only had enough to cover the sins of a certain number of people (like the 144,000 of the J.W.'s), but just in case I will give you the plan of salvation anyway. You sound more like a J.W. than a believer in Christ.

 

[DHK]

Adam Clarke:


Thomas Aquinas

So what do you want? A battle of commentaries? Do you think that will change my mind?

Wesley:

Thou hatest all workers of iniquity - All that do wrong. He refers here, also, to a general characteristic of God, but still with an implied and immediate reference to his enemies as sustaining this character, and as a reason why he appealed to God to defend his cause. Nothing is more constantly affirmed in the Scriptures than that God hates all forms of evil.

 

[DHK]

Time out!! DHK, time out!!

We are both getting unseemly somewhat in our postings. Let us not go down that road. I will bow out before I do. I am having a hard time following what you are conveying.

You have said before that 'faith is faith' and then turned right around and said 'but not all faith will save'. How can I reconcile those two trains of thoughts mon ami?

I have stated this consistently, many times, defining what faith is.
The little children came to Jesus. Jesus said you must be like them to enter the kingdom of God. He was referring to the simplicity of their faith--the nature of the faith.
--The little children were not saved. Yet they had faith. All men have faith.

The ten lepers came to Jesus. They had faith to be healed. But only one was saved. He returned and put his "saving faith" as you would call it, in Christ. Faith is faith. The others put their faith in Christ to heal (as he did), but then he returned and put his faith in Christ to heal spiritually or to save.

Faith always has an object. The object of my faith, in order to be saved, must be Christ.
The unsaved Roman Centurion had more faith than any one else in all of Israel. Why? He did not ask the Lord to come to his house to heal his daughter but had faith that he could heal her from afar. This took faith. But he was not saved. After his daughter was saved, while on his way home, the account says, "then he believed." That is when he put his faith in Christ.

Faith is faith. It is confidence or trust in another. Saving faith is when a person puts their confidence or trust in Christ alone for salvation. The rich young ruler put his faith in his riches rather than in Christ.

You say God is love, and I agree with you. But you say God loves everybody and then turns around on the day of Judgment and gives the worst possible punishment that could ever be by casting them into the lake of fire forever.

God said that he does not take pleasure in the wicked. He pled: "Why will ye die..."
He loved them though he knew the outcome. He knew they would stand in the Great White Throne Judgement, yet plead with them in loving kindness.
He loves all, and likewise pleads with all to come unto him. He will never reject anyone.
The reason anyone will go to hell is because of his justice, not because of "hatred," because he has no other option. They rejected his son. He does not love the action; gleefully throwing people in hell as you depict him. It is a somber perhaps even sorrowful occasion. He has no other option.

If you had an unruly child, I am sure you would go to the ends of the earth and use every fund necessary to help them out, even give your life for them. But at the end of your rope, would you toss them into a fiery furnace?

Christ went to "the fiery furnace on order to save mankind. He did all he could. His offer of justice was rejected. He went to the ends of the earth to save all mankind.

Absolutely not. Even though you did all you could do to save them, you would never get that disgusted with them. Yet, God will do that to many of His own creation. That is not any 'out of control' God, a berserk God, but a righteous and holy God who must punish sin. He either punishes sin in the sinner or the Sinbearer.

You have depicted him as out of control. You have depicted him as one that gives the "reprobate" as absolutely no chance to be saved even if presented the chance, the ability to be saved. You have gone against your own scenario. Your picture of God just throws them into Hell with no chance of ever being saved. That is terrible. That is not what the Bible teaches. Whosoever will may come.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

You have depicted him as one that gives the "reprobate" as absolutely no chance to be saved even if presented the chance, the ability to be saved. You have gone against your own scenario. Your picture of God just throws them into Hell with no chance of ever being saved. That is terrible. That is not what the Bible teaches. Whosoever will may come.

Brother DHK,

I am sorry in your theology you present to others God has left salvation up to "chance"? Do you take odds on their souls for betting purposes as well? Does everyone get an equal "chance" or some more than others?

 

[DHK]

Brother DHK,

I am sorry in your theology you present to others God has left salvation up to "chance"? Do you take odds on their souls for betting purposes as well? Does everyone get an equal "chance" or some more than others?

Did I say God has left everything up to chance? Can you quote those exact words? Or do you just take things out of context because I happen to use that word in a different context? Typical for Calvinists. Context means nothing.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Did I say God has left everything up to chance? Can you quote those exact words? Or do you just take things out of context because I happen to use that word in a different context? Typical for Calvinists. Context means nothing.

Brother DHK,

You did not say God has left everything up to chance, however you clearly implied that salvation is a "chance" experience by complaining to Brother Sov Grace that in his theology God gives the reprobate "no chance to be saved even if presented the chance" and "throws them into Hell with no chance of ever being saved", don't such statements imply that the salvation you teach is a chance experience? What determines the odds, man or God? Are the odds increased if God gives the sinner more chances to hear the gospel? If so, how is that fair? Also, scripture teachers us all the players are equal as their natures are all inherited by their same father Adam, thus how come some players end up believing the gospel presentation while others do not? I would expect all to respond the same if they have equal ability. Do they have equal ability in their nature, yes or no?

 

[DHK]

Brother DHK,

You did not say God has left everything up to chance, however you clearly implied that salvation is a "chance" experience by complaining to Brother Sov Grace that in his theology God gives the reprobate "no chance to be saved even if presented the chance" and "throws them into Hell with no chance of ever being saved", don't such statements imply that the salvation you teach is a chance experience?

Then simply change the word "chance" to "opportunity" and you will have a more accurate rendition of what I was trying to say. It seems you have a problem with words.

What determines the odds, man or God? Are the odds increased if God gives the sinner more chances to hear the gospel? If so, how is that fair?

Don't have a clue what you are talking about. Like I said it seems you have a problem with words. There is no gambling involved here as you imply. God gives people the opportunity, even the responsibility, to be saved. Are you holding God hostage if man rejects His free offer? It seems now that you have depicted God both as a gambler and then a victim of man at the same time? It is not a very good picture of God that you paint.

Also, scripture teachers us all the players are equal as their natures are all inherited by their same father Adam, thus how come some players end up believing the gospel presentation while others do not? I would expect all to respond the same if they have equal ability. Do they have equal ability in their nature, yes or no?

All have inherited sin natures, yes? Are you married? How many children do you have? Do they all end up as successful as each other in life--equally successful, or are some more successful than others? Why would that be?
Do you know parents that have raised children: some submissive and obedient, and others for some inexplicable reason turned out to be rebellious? Why would one be obedient and the other rebellious?
If you have all the answers to life please tell. There are many parents that would like to know.

In the light of the above I consider your question to be foolish, as God has not created two individuals the same. Even the finger print of every person ever created has been different from one another. No two persons are alike. Thus the answer to their offer of salvation is dependent entirely upon their will. Will they decide for Christ or not. Not every one is created the same. You assume they are. Are there two of you?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

In the light of the above I consider your question to be foolish, as God has not created two individuals the same. Even the finger print of every person ever created has been different from one another. No two persons are alike. Thus the answer to their offer of salvation is dependent entirely upon their will. Will they decide for Christ or not. Not every one is created the same. You assume they are. Are there two of you?

A man's will is determined by their nature within them that influences their choices, but you have man's will determining if they receive a new nature when scripture clearly states becoming born again is determined by Gods will, "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:13). One cannot will their physical birth into this world, likewise one cannot will their spiritual birth, rather in both instances the Father is responsible for both. What influences the will to choose as it does, circumstances in a person's life, God, their spiritual nature, or something else, if something else what?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Then simply change the word "chance" to "opportunity" and you will have a more accurate rendition of what I was trying to say. It seems you have a problem with words.

Thanks for the clarification. I don't have the problem with words brother, you are the one who incorrectly used the word "chance". From the article titled "Difference Between Opportunity and Chance" from here http://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-opportunity-and-vs-chance/

"Chance and opportunity are two words that are used commonly in our daily lives. Though having nearly same meanings, they are used in different contexts and have different usages. Many people tend to use these words interchangeably which is a wrong practice. This article will attempt to highlight the subtle differences between opportunity and chance."

 

[DHK]

A man's will is determined by their nature within them that influences their choices, but you have man's will determining if they receive a new nature when scripture clearly states becoming born again is determined by Gods will, "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." (John 1:13).

Is it convenient to forget about verses 11 and 12

Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
--Israel rejected him without the Spirit.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
--Man does not need the Spirit to force him to be saved. In this you are wrong.
Verse 13 simply shows the process in which a person is saved. It does not mean that a person must have his heart opened by the Spirit in order to be saved. You are wrong here.

One cannot will their physical birth into this world, likewise one cannot will their spiritual birth, rather in both instances the Father is responsible for both. What influences the will to choose as it does, circumstances in a person's life, God, their spiritual nature, or something else, if something else what?

One is born physically and one must be born spiritually. You take the analogy too far.
What you don't get is "the how."

What did Jesus mean when he said:
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
--There are only two elements mentioned here, both of which are necessary to the new birth or salvation.
One must be born of the Spirit. We all agree on that.
But what does it mean to be born of "water"? Many theories have been offered. Obviously we reject the RCC idea of baptismal regeneration.
Instead of going through the various theories, I will simply tell you what I believe and why.

"Water" is symbolic of the "Word."
Nicodemus was probably standing in sight of the Temple where he could view the many ceremonial cleansings of the Jews.
The most common purpose of water is for cleansing.
Jesus said in John 15:3:
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
--Water cleanses; the Word cleanses.

Nicodemus knew this from the OT.
Psa 119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
--It is the Word that cleanses our way. Nicodemus knew that.

Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
--Here James uses the word "begat" or "born". We are "born" of the Word.
The Word of God is imperative in the New Birth.

And even more clearly in 1Pet.1:23,
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
--It is abundantly clear that one is born again by the Word of God.
Water cleanses. The Word cleanses. Water is symbolic of the Word.
There are two and only two elements necessary for the new birth: (water and the Spirit) or The Word and The Spirit.

One is born again by the Spirit of God.
One is born again by the Word of God.
Both are necessary. If the Word of God is not preached the person cannot be born again. There must be belief in that Word (and conviction by the Holy Spirit) in order for the person to be born again).
The ministry of the Holy Spirit is clearly spelled out in John 16:8-11.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Brother DHK,

As usual I have enjoyed our debate and as usual we will have to agree to disagree! I am going to be off the board at least until Monday, but would be interested in your reply to the question I posed you before, but did not get a reply. I will bow out of this thread at least until Monday and give you the final word for the weekend!

What influences the will to choose as it does in regards to salvation, circumstances in a person's life, God, the individual's spiritual nature, or something else? If something else, then what?

 

[DHK]

Brother DHK,

As usual I have enjoyed our debate and as usual we will have to agree to disagree! I am going to be off the board at least until Monday, but would be interested in your reply to the question I posed you before, but did not get a reply. I will bow out of this thread at least until Monday and give you the final word for the weekend!

I answered that question in much detail using families and children as illustrations. You never answered that part of the post.
Let me ask again:
Two children raised in an identical atmosphere: same parents, same environment, etc.
Why does one become a carpenter and the other a preacher?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

I answered that question in much detail using families and children as illustrations. You never answered that part of the post.
Let me ask again:
Two children raised in an identical atmosphere: same parents, same environment, etc.
Why does one become a carpenter and the other a preacher?

Brother,

No two siblings could be raised in truly "identical atmospheres" as every sibling has different circumstances to some degree. For example we all know different people and even if both siblings knew only the same people it is a matter of fact nobody treats everybody identical. We all have different life adversities (one siblings health isn't going to be identical to the other's. They will have different cholesterol readings, blood pressure readings, etc.), we all have different triumphs, are taught different things. Also, no parents on earth say the same exact things at the same identical times to each child in the child's life. Further, different things happen to different people at different points in times of their lives, thus atmospheres are always different for each person, thus your answer to my question by giving me the example of the siblings is not a true like kind analogy. However, unlike the atmosphere of siblings that is always different, you would have to agree that both siblings sin natures are the same, otherwise you would have to conclude that some people inherit natures that are less depraved than others and we know this isn't Biblical. Identical causes on identical things cause identical reactions, the reason one believes the gospel and the other doesn't is simple, one is already born again, the other is not! If you contend this is not the case, please provide an explanation of what causes one's will to be believe the gospel and another person's will not to? Paul asked this question indirectly when he said, "For who maketh thee to differ from another? " (1 Corinthians 4:7) The answer he was looking for is obvious-God.