The eternal purpose of Christ pt2

[DHK]

Brother,

No two siblings could be raised in truly "identical atmospheres" as every sibling has different circumstances to some degree. For example we all know different people and even if both siblings knew only the same people it is a matter of fact nobody treats everybody identical. We all have different life adversities (one siblings health isn't going to be identical to the other's. They will have different cholesterol readings, blood pressure readings, etc.), we all have different triumphs, are taught different things. Also, no parents on earth say the same exact things at the same identical times to each child in the child's life. Further, different things happen to different people at different points in times of their lives, thus atmospheres are always different for each person, thus your answer to my question by giving me the example of the siblings is not a true like kind analogy. However, unlike the atmosphere of siblings that is always different, you would have to agree that both siblings sin natures are the same, otherwise you would have to conclude that some people inherit natures that are less depraved than others and we know this isn't Biblical. Identical causes on identical things cause identical reactions, the reason one believes the gospel and the other doesn't is simple, one is already born again, the other is not! If you contend this is not the case, please provide an explanation of what causes one's will to be believe the gospel and another person's will not to? Paul asked this question indirectly when he said, "For who maketh thee to differ from another? " (1 Corinthians 4:7) The answer he was looking for is obvious-God.

However, we all differ from one another. So why do you want to force an answer out of me when you know we are different from one another. Some will choose to rebel and others will not. It is their choice.
God forces no one.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

However, we all differ from one another. So why do you want to force an answer out of me when you know we are different from one another. Some will choose to rebel and others will not. It is their choice.
God forces no one.

Brother,

Yes we do all differ on our response to the gospel, some believe and some do not. The gospel regeneration position cannot provide a logical explanation as to why this is, nor have you offered one. The reason why can only be explained if regeneration precedes faith, thus some believe and others who are not will not believe. I do not contend their is no choice, but was showing you that the fact that people make different choices on the matter proves my premise that their natures must not be the same to begin with (one is already born anew before they hear the gospel, those that do not believe are not).

 

[Iconoclast]

However, we all differ from one another. So why do you want to force an answer out of me when you know we are different from one another. Some will choose to rebel and others will not. It is their choice.
God forces no one.

So in the book of Daniel King Nebuchadnezzar wanted to eat grass?

 

[SovereignGrace]

You sound more like a J.W. than a believer in Christ.

This post was reported monsieur. You do not believe we, any Calvinist, are saved, but you have not the testicular fortitude to come right out and say it. Quite the unbecoming behavior coming from a forum Moderator.

 

[DHK]

Brother,

Yes we do all differ on our response to the gospel, some believe and some do not. The gospel regeneration position cannot provide a logical explanation as to why this is, nor have you offered one. The reason why can only be explained if regeneration precedes faith, thus some believe and others who are not will not believe. I do not contend their is no choice, but was showing you that the fact that people make different choices on the matter proves my premise that their natures must not be the same to begin with (one is already born anew before they hear the gospel, those that do not believe are not).

The Bible makes it abundantly clear that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
It does not say that faith comes by regeneration. Nowhere is such a statement made, inferred, implied or taught.
When a person hears the Word, understands the Word, then he has a choice. He can either accept it or reject it. He is made in the image of God with the power of reason (unlike animals) with that will to so choose. It indeed is his choice.
The Calvinist makes God the big bad monster selecting some to heaven and damning the rest to Hell even though he could have saved them. Thus God is the author of evil. He creates wicked and is fully involved in every wicked work that goes on in this world. It is a wicked God that man has created.

The non-Cal says no. Man brought sin into this world. Man is corrupt, responsible for his sin and his decisions. He makes wicked decisions. If he rejects Christ that is his decision. But if he accepts Christ that is also his decision. The Word of God is a living Word and able to work in the hearts of men. We are born of God through the Word of God and the Spirit. We are not forced by God.

 

[DHK]

This post was reported monsieur. You do not believe we, any Calvinist, are saved, but you have not the testicular fortitude to come right out and say it. Quite the unbecoming behavior coming from a forum Moderator.

On the contrary, there are many Calvinists here who have forthrightly and publicly said that no one can be saved outside of Calvinism. I have not said that anyone is unsaved. I referred to someone's logic being more like the J.W.'s. Both believe only a specific number can be saved. Is that not a true comparison?

 

[DHK]

So in the book of Daniel King Nebuchadnezzar wanted to eat grass?

Can you show me where he "wanted" to eat grass.
The eating of grass by Nebuchadnezzar was a judgment.

 

[steaver]

The Bible makes it abundantly clear that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
It does not say that faith comes by regeneration. Nowhere is such a statement made, inferred, implied or taught.
When a person hears the Word, understands the Word, then he has a choice. He can either accept it or reject it. He is made in the image of God with the power of reason (unlike animals) with that will to so choose. It indeed is his choice.
The Calvinist makes God the big bad monster selecting some to heaven and damning the rest to Hell even though he could have saved them. Thus God is the author of evil. He creates wicked and is fully involved in every wicked work that goes on in this world. It is a wicked God that man has created.

The non-Cal says no. Man brought sin into this world. Man is corrupt, responsible for his sin and his decisions. He makes wicked decisions. If he rejects Christ that is his decision. But if he accepts Christ that is also his decision. The Word of God is a living Word and able to work in the hearts of men. We are born of God through the Word of God and the Spirit. We are not forced by God.

It's refreshing to see the scriptures represented as written. :thumbs:

 

[SovereignGrace]

DHK,

I am going to show you how dis-jointed your theology is. I will do so in a civil manner, and I expect the same manner from you.


You say that salvation is an opportunity that God gives to people. First off, salvation is a gift, a calling, and never an opportunity. Now, how does anyone receive salvation? It is by grace. How does anyone obtain salvation. It is through the preaching of the gospel. Now, it takes faith being exercised while hearing the gospel to be saved.


Now, you state that all men without exception have faith. You also state that faith comes by hearing the word of God(of which I agree with you here).Then in another thread you stated that not everyone has heard the gospel. So, if faith comes by hearing the gospel, and not everyone has heard the gospel, then how can everyone have faith?

That is why, mon ami, it is ever so hard to discuss, debate, with you because I do not know how to take your posts at times.

 

[SovereignGrace]

On the contrary, there are many Calvinists here who have forthrightly and publicly said that no one can be saved outside of Calvinism. I have not said that anyone is unsaved. I referred to someone's logic being more like the J.W.'s. Both believe only a specific number can be saved. Is that not a true comparison?

And any and all of them should be banned, too.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The Bible makes it abundantly clear that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
It does not say that faith comes by regeneration. Nowhere is such a statement made, inferred, implied or taught.

Acts 16:15. 'Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira who worshipped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.'

Lydia was a 'God-fearer,' a gentile who attended the synagogues, but she still needed to be saved. So, did she open her own heart when she heard Paul's preaching? Nope! Did Paul open her heart with his wonderfully persuasive words? That's not what it says. 'The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.'

You might also consider Acts 13:48 and Eph. 2:5 but unfortunately your mind seems to be entirely closed. Pity.

 

[DHK]

DHK,

I am going to show you how dis-jointed your theology is. I will do so in a civil manner, and I expect the same manner from you.

Okay.

You say that salvation is an opportunity that God gives to people. First off, salvation is a gift, a calling, and never an opportunity. Now, how does anyone receive salvation? It is by grace. How does anyone obtain salvation. It is through the preaching of the gospel. Now, it takes faith being exercised while hearing the gospel to be saved.

Salvation is a gift. It is a gift that is given or offered. The opportunity is there for all to either receive or reject it. There is no contradiction between gift and opportunity. If you give a gift to a child she may not take the opportunity to open it for whatever reason. Maybe she has enough already. She has denied herself both the opportunity of taking the gift and the gift itself.
In Romans 10:17 the context of faith is faith to salvation, or faith in the gospel. It speaks specifically of the faith it takes to be saved.

Now, you state that all men without exception have faith. You also state that faith comes by hearing the word of God(of which I agree with you here).Then in another thread you stated that not everyone has heard the gospel. So, if faith comes by hearing the gospel, and not everyone has heard the gospel, then how can everyone have faith?

As I just said, the context of Romans 10:17 is specific to salvation.
Everyone has faith. Faith is faith.
Children have faith before they have an understanding of the gospel. Jesus testified to that.
An unsaved Centurion had more faith than all that were in Israel.
Ten Lepers had faith, but only one was saved.
Many came to Jesus to be healed. They were healed according to their faith but that doesn't mean they were saved.

It is the Bible states that faith is necessary to be saved.
"For by grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves.."
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
For whosoever will may come.
Salvation is by faith. That point is made abundantly clear in the Scriptures.

"Not everyone has heard the gospel" That may be true."
But is that an excuse not to be saved.
Cornelius had never heard the gospel. He desired to be saved. God sent to him Peter. He was saved. That pattern has been repeated hundreds of times throughout the centuries. Get in some conversations with missionaries and find out.

Find out how many times a pagan without God will prayer a similar prayer: "God if there is a God show me the way".
That type of prayer God has honored countless of times.

All the world has no excuse not to have faith in God. Why?
1. God has written in every man's heart His law; that is, His revelation about Himself.
2. He has given to every man a conscience. He knows when he has done wrong.
3. Man knows through creation that God exists.
4. It is written that man has no excuse for not knowing Him and believing in Him.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

They are without excuse to believe (have faith) in God. God has declared this much to us. And if man desires to know more (as Cornelius did), God will not refuse such a man that knowledge. Thus we have the great commission.

I have heard such testimonies myself: "I was praying that God would send someone to tell me of the truth just last week, and here you are."
I believe in a God who answers prayer--spectacular prayers. I have no need to doubt him. He said he would save all who call on his name. Why would I doubt him?

 

[DHK]

The Bible makes it abundantly clear that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
It does not say that faith comes by regeneration. Nowhere is such a statement made, inferred, implied or taught.

Acts 16:15. 'Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira who worshipped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.'

Lydia was a 'God-fearer,' a gentile who attended the synagogues, but she still needed to be saved. So, did she open her own heart when she heard Paul's preaching? Nope! Did Paul open her heart with his wonderfully persuasive words? That's not what it says. 'The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.'

You might also consider Acts 13:48 and Eph. 2:5 but unfortunately your mind seems to be entirely closed. Pity.

The question you need to ask yourself is this:
Did God force her heart open?
What does it mean when it says: "God opened her heart"?
Does that mean she was regenerated right then, before then, or after then?
The Bible is not specific on that, and you may be reading more into that expression than is warranted.

 

[SovereignGrace]

See DHK, that is why I can not keep up with you. You say faith is faith, and then turn around and say that faith in Romans 10:17 is pertinent to salvation. Then you also said that not all faiths save, so I am taking that to mean you believe there is more than one kind of faith. But then you say faith is faith?

 

[DHK]

See DHK, that is why I can not keep up with you. You say faith is faith, and then turn around and say that faith in Romans 10:17 is pertinent to salvation. Then you also said that not all faiths save, so I am taking that to mean you believe there is more than one kind of faith. But then you say faith is faith?

Okay.
Grace is grace. It is unmerited favor and that is all.
But not all grace saves.

Mercy is mercy. Not all mercy is from God.
Man is commanded to be both merciful and gracious.

If you are consistent in your arguments you will continue to object and say that this is not possible because salvation is by grace therefore it is not possible for a man to be gracious without God giving man grace first. But we know that is not true.
The very first definition of Webster's 1828 edition of his dictionary is:

1. Favor; good will; kindness; disposition to oblige another; as a grant made as an act of grace.

However, by your logic, it is impossible for a man to have grace until he is regenerated.
God has given man all of these qualities: love, grace, mercy, faith, etc.
Man is made in the image of God; in the image of God made he man.
We can see these qualities in some men more than others. The spiral decline of sin is evident in some men more than others. The reason for that is clearly given in Romans chapter one, as man continues to give himself to idolatry and the abject rejection of Christianity.

Our nation was built on what we call the "Christian-Judeo" ethic. It is far more civilized than those nations that are built on the principles of Islam or Hinduism. They have rejected God and their deeds can be seen as described in Romans one.

Back to faith. I have said repeatedly that faith has an object. Unless the object of one's faith is Jesus Christ, it has missed the mark of salvation.
The devils have faith.
Children have faith.
The rich young ruler had faith.
The Ten Lepers had faith; only one was saved, but all were healed.
All have faith. But what do they put their faith in? That is the question.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Okay.
Grace is grace. It is unmerited favor and that is all.
But not all grace saves.

Mercy is mercy. Not all mercy is from God.
Man is commanded to be both merciful and gracious.

If you are consistent in your arguments you will continue to object and say that this is not possible because salvation is by grace therefore it is not possible for a man to be gracious without God giving man grace first. But we know that is not true.
The very first definition of Webster's 1828 edition of his dictionary is:

However, by your logic, it is impossible for a man to have grace until he is regenerated.
God has given man all of these qualities: love, grace, mercy, faith, etc.
Man is made in the image of God; in the image of God made he man.
We can see these qualities in some men more than others. The spiral decline of sin is evident in some men more than others. The reason for that is clearly given in Romans chapter one, as man continues to give himself to idolatry and the abject rejection of Christianity.

Our nation was built on what we call the "Christian-Judeo" ethic. It is far more civilized than those nations that are built on the principles of Islam or Hinduism. They have rejected God and their deeds can be seen as described in Romans one.

Back to faith. I have said repeatedly that faith has an object. Unless the object of one's faith is Jesus Christ, it has missed the mark of salvation.
The devils have faith.
Children have faith.
The rich young ruler had faith.
The Ten Lepers had faith; only one was saved, but all were healed.
All have faith. But what do they put their faith in? That is the question.

Thank you for your attempt at explaining your thought process to me, mon ami.. I think you had to jump through several hoops to get to your conclusion(s), so I will leave it there.


Merci beaucoup. :thumbsup:

 

[SovereignGrace]

DHK,

You never answer a portion of that scenario if you had an unruly child.


At the end of your rope, after doing everything you could do, spending every dollar you had until you are broke, and they will not relent, would you toss your child, one of your creation, into a fire?

 

[DHK]

DHK,

You never answer a portion of that scenario if you had an unruly child.


At the end of your rope, after doing everything you could do, spending every dollar you had until you are broke, and they will not relent, would you toss your child, one of your creation, into a fire?

Under OT law a rebellious child would be stoned.
As a human parent I would continue to pray and cry out to God for the child. With God there is always hope.
I am not God. Therefore I cannot answer your question. In his omniscience God knew what would happen. But he didn't make the decisions for them. They made their own decisions bringing upon themselves their own judgment.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Under OT law a rebellious child would be stoned.
As a human parent I would continue to pray and cry out to God for the child. With God there is always hope.
I am not God. Therefore I cannot answer your question. In his omniscience God knew what would happen. But he didn't make the decisions for them. They made their own decisions bringing upon themselves their own judgment.

You keep talking about God and man being an example of a father and son, and I do agree with that. Yet, God is going to cast many of His creation into a fiery furnace.


That is why none of us can truly comprehend Him. We can glean from His words He left us, but never can we truly comprehend Him at His deepest level. No father would do their child that way, but God will be casting many into a fiery furnace.

 

[Iconoclast]

The Bible makes it abundantly clear that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
It does not say that faith comes by regeneration. Nowhere is such a statement made, inferred, implied or taught.

Acts 16:15. 'Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira who worshipped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.'

Lydia was a 'God-fearer,' a gentile who attended the synagogues, but she still needed to be saved. So, did she open her own heart when she heard Paul's preaching? Nope! Did Paul open her heart with his wonderfully persuasive words? That's not what it says. 'The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.'

You might also consider Acts 13:48 and Eph. 2:5 but unfortunately your mind seems to be entirely closed. Pity.

:1_grouphug:
Well done....nothing to add here. Everyone can see this is the truth as SG has been posting..thus post answers the objection completely.:1_grouphug::applause: