The eternal purpose of Christ pt2

[SovereignGrace]

God poured out his wrath upon his Son, true.
Was God angry? No. God was not angry.

After reading this again, this stuck out to me. Do you read your posts before hitting 'submit'? I do not mean this in a snarky manner, mon ami, but can someone pour out their wrath on anyone without having anger? This statement is rather odd. Please elaborate what you mean here, please.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Those pics you editted out were not offensive to anyone who is a christian, monsieur. The LGBT community's chant of 'God is love' resonated all the way to D.C. and the supreme court's ruling allowing them to have wedded bliss. They truly believe God is love. Where is this love as God casts them into the lake of fire, mon ami?

 

[savedbymercy]

Yes God hates sin. It is a false conclusion to draw that he hates those that commit sin.
God poured out his wrath upon his Son, true.
Was God angry? No. God was not angry.
Was his wrath poured out? His wrath was appeased with the death of his son.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Ps 5:5 ! God hates all the workers of Iniquity!

 

[DHK]

Hebrews 12:29 is a reference from Deut. 4:24. Now, I will give you some verses from Deut. 4 to show you what 'consuming fire' means...

You saw with your own eyes what the Lord did at Baal Peor. The Lord your God destroyed from among you everyone who followed the Baal of Peor.[Deut. 4:3] Now the Hebrew word for 'destroyed' means annihilate, exterminate, devastate, destroy. Can God do this while not in anger?

The Lord was angry with me because of you, and he solemnly swore that I would not cross the Jordan and enter the good land the Lord your God is giving you as your inheritance. I will die in this land; I will not cross the Jordan; but you are about to cross over and take possession of that good land. [vss. 21,22]

Here is an example of sin not going unpunished. God commanded Moses to guide His people, and held him personally responsible for their wrongdoings. Moses did not do what they did(yes he smote the rock twice), yet God held him accountable for their sins. Sound famaliar? Christ was held responsible for His sheep's sin. He suffered, paid for their sins in death.

Be careful not to forget the covenant of the Lord your God that he made with you; do not make for yourselves an idol in the form of anything the Lord your God has forbidden. For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.[vss. 23,24]

This is the context of what is meant by the Hebrew writer's meaning of God being a 'consuming fire'. He was angry at the Jews for having other gods, other idols they worshipped, and not Him. That was why the Hebrew writer also wrote So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall never enter my rest.’[Heb. 3:11] These Jews were in unbelief, worshipping other idols and God, in His anger, swore 'They shall never enter my rest(sabbath)'.

Sinners are serving sin and self, not worshipping God. Unless God has mercy, His wrath is never rescended, going all the way to Him casting them into the lake of fire.

I suppose if you compare the uninspired LXX to the Greek you may have some good comparisons. However, the NT was written in Greek and the OT was written in Hebrew and it is difficult to say when one is a direct quote of the other. You are simply depending on a translation.

Furthermore, one must take into consideration the difference between the two covenants. Vine says:

Ὁ θεὸς ἡμῶν is not our God as compared with the God of the Jews. He is the God of both covenants (see Heb_1:1, Heb_1:2, and notes); but though now revealed in Jesus Christ, and offering all the privileges of the new covenant (Heb_12:22-24)

The Jehovah of the OT is depicted far differently than the meek and mild Lamb of the NT. Continually taking the "angry metaphors" from the OT does your case no good. It doesn't give one an accurate picture of God.

The context of Heb.12:29 is verse 28, obviously. It is not the OT. It is the NT, specifically the Book of Hebrews. It is a warning to believers, not unbelievers. Look at the "we" in verse 28. I ask you again, is the author of Hebrews an unbeliever? Does the author, as well as you, not believe in eternal security, as your interpretation would have us believe?

 

[DHK]

Ps 5:5 ! God hates all the workers of Iniquity!

Do you work iniquity? Ever?

 

[DHK]

Those pics you editted out were not offensive to anyone who is a christian, monsieur. The LGBT community's chant of 'God is love' resonated all the way to D.C. and the supreme court's ruling allowing them to have wedded bliss. They truly believe God is love. Where is this love as God casts them into the lake of fire, mon ami?

The discuss it. We don't need pictures of it.

 

[savedbymercy]

The discuss it. We don't need pictures of it.

We're not talking about me, but what Gods word says! God hates the workers of Iniquity Ps 5:5 ! Do you believe that?

 

[DHK]

After reading this again, this stuck out to me. Do you read your posts before hitting 'submit'? I do not mean this in a snarky manner, mon ami, but can someone pour out their wrath on anyone without having anger? This statement is rather odd. Please elaborate what you mean here, please.

I can think of a father who could mete out corporal punishment (give a spanking) to his small child in love. It would indeed "hurt him as much as his son."
More often than not, however, I have seen a father mete out the same type of punishment "in anger," which often results in our modern day definition of child abuse.
God metes out justice, calmly, deliberately without anger.

 

[DHK]

We're not talking about me, but what Gods word says! God hates the workers of Iniquity Ps 5:5 ! Do you believe that?

Do you believe you ought to pray the same psalm, the same prayer:
Psa 5:10 Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee.
--Is this what you want for your neighbor?

 

[SovereignGrace]

From Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definitions:

אכל

1. to eat, devour, burn up, feed
a. (Qal)
1. to eat (human subject)
2. to eat, devour (of beasts and birds)
3. to devour, consume (of fire)
4. to devour, slay (of sword)
5. to devour, consume, destroy (inanimate subjects - ie, pestilence, drought)
6. to devour (of oppression)
b. (Niphal)
1. to be eaten (by men)
2. to be devoured, consumed (of fire)
3. to be wasted, destroyed (of flesh)
c. (Pual)
1. to cause to eat, feed with
2. to cause to devour
d. (Hiphil)
1. to feed
2. to cause to eat
e. (Piel)
1. consume
Gesenius' Lexicon - H398

This is the Hebrew word used for 'consuming'...




Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definitions

אשׁ

1. fire
a. fire, flames
b. supernatural fire (accompanying theophany)
c. fire (for cooking, roasting, parching)
d. altar-fire
e. God's anger (fig.)
Gesenius' Lexicon - H784

Hebrew word used for 'fire'...

Who said anything about the LXX? Not I. I use the NIV, KJV, YLT, and I also use the Greek and Hebrew Interlinears by Jay P. Green, Sr. I usually quote the NIV, but I use other translations too. You use the antiquated KJV. Forsooth?

You still are displaying a schizophrenic God. God deals with the sins of the Jews in the same manner he does the Gentiles now. Those who Christ never suffered for, will be consumed by God as He casts them into the lake of fire.

http://studybible.info/IHOT/Deuteronomy 4

 

[savedbymercy]

Do you believe you ought to pray the same psalm, the same prayer:
Psa 5:10 Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee.
--Is this what you want for your neighbor?

Don't evade! Does God hate the workers of Iniquity according to Ps 5:5 ?Yes or No!

 

[SovereignGrace]

I can think of a father who could mete out corporal punishment (give a spanking) to his small child in love. It would indeed "hurt him as much as his son."
More often than not, however, I have seen a father mete out the same type of punishment "in anger," which often results in our modern day definition of child abuse.
God metes out justice, calmly, deliberately without anger.

So you are equating spanking a child with God killing His own Son? You are equating a few swats with an open palm on his 'bum bum' with spikes being driven in Christs' wrists and feet? You are equating a belt across you child's legs with a cat o'nine tails ripping out our Savior's flesh upon His back?

God did not spank Him and send Him to His room for 'time out', monsier.

God killed His Son. God poured His wrath out on His Son. God was angry with His Son. You can not biblically refute this. You may refute it, but not biblically.

When Christ 'became' sin, God spared Him not. How sobering is that thought?

 

[DHK]

So you are equating spanking a child with God killing His own Son? You are equating a few swats with an open palm on his 'bum bum' with spikes being driven in Christs' wrists and feet? You are equating a belt across you child's legs with a cat o'nine tails ripping out our Savior's flesh upon His back?

God did not spank Him and send Him to His room for 'time out', monsier.

God killed His Son. God poured His wrath out on His Son. God was angry with His Son. You can not biblically refute this. You may refute it, but not biblically.

When Christ 'became' sin, God spared Him not. How sobering is that thought?

Yes, it is sobering. But one must be careful with our words, especially when using a Bible translated 400 years ago and using language that is very much outdated with most of the words having changed meaning at least somewhat.

Today, when someone is angry, they have lost it. They have lost their temper, and are emotionally distraught.

Many say Jesus was angry here:
Matthew 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

or here:
Mark 11:15 And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;
16 And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.
17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.
--There is no word of Jesus being angry here. It doesn't say he is. We simply read that into his actions.
Jesus does not get angry. He is always in control of his emotions. To be angry would be sin. In our definition of the word angry is to "lose control." Jesus was deliberate in his actions. He knew what he would do, when he would do it, how he would do it, etc. Nothing was random or done out of raw emotion.

Today "anger" is that raw emotion which is the basis of murder.
"Whoso is angry with his brother..."

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yes, it is sobering.

:godisgood::jesus:

But one must be careful with our words, especially when using a Bible translated 400 years ago and using language that is very much outdated with most of the words having changed meaning at least somewhat.

Then why quote it as much as you do, monsieur?

Today, when someone is angry, they have lost it. They have lost their temper, and are emotionally distraught.

But God is not someone who looses it when He gets angry, mon ami. God showed His anger upon His own Son. The word 'angry' used in Psa. 7:11 means to denounce, express indignation, be indignant, to have indignation, be indignant, be angrily indignant, be defiant, to be abhorrent, to express indignation in speech, denounce, curse; to show indignation, show anger.

Indignation: anger or annoyance provoked by what is perceived as unfair treatment.

Abhorrent: inspiring disgust and loathing; repugnant.

denounce: publicly declare to be wrong or evil.

Curse: a solemn utterance intended to invoke a supernatural power to inflict harm or punishment on someone or something.(remember Christ became a curse for us when He hung, bleed, and died monsieur.)

Many say Jesus was angry here:
Matthew 21:12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

or here:
Mark 11:15 And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves;
16 And would not suffer that any man should carry any vessel through the temple.
17 And he taught, saying unto them, Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.
--There is no word of Jesus being angry here. It doesn't say he is. We simply read that into his actions.

Absolutely He was angry. He did not run them out of there because they were doing His will.

Jesus does not get angry.

Yes He did. Jesus was 100% God, yes. Also, He was also 100% Man, too. He had human emotions, also. But in His anger, He never sinned one time.

He is always in control of his emotions.

Yes He is, never stated anything to the contrary.

To be angry would be sin.

In our definition of the word angry is to "lose control." Jesus was deliberate in his actions. He knew what he would do, when he would do it, how he would do it, etc. Nothing was random or done out of raw emotion.

Eph. 4:26 says "In your anger do not sin". It does not say we sin when we get angry. Yes, it can give place to the devil to use that anger against is, but getting angry is not sinning. Acting out on that anger, now that is a whole other matter.

Today "anger" is that raw emotion which is the basis of murder.
"Whoso is angry with his brother..."

If someone steals your car, that would make you angry. Now, if you go and chance them down and thump them, that is sinning. If you are angry and call the police and allow them to apprehend them, you have been angry, yes, but did not sin. Getting angry is not a sin, monsieur. It is how you handle your anger that determines if you sin or not.

 

[Iconoclast]

Protestant hit the nail on the head. It is not worthy of an answer because you have not one that is worthy of a biblical refutation.


These images are as deplorable as they come, yet these people say God loves everyone, including those who abuse their bodies by being with the same-sex.
[edited due to offensiveness]

:applause::applause::applause:yes...this is what it has come down too.

 

[Iconoclast]

::jesus:


Then why quote it as much as you do, monsieur?

But God is not someone who looses it when He gets angry, mon ami. God showed His anger upon His own Son. The word 'angry' used in Psa. 7:11 means to denounce, express indignation, be indignant, to have indignation, be indignant, be angrily indignant, be defiant, to be abhorrent, to express indignation in speech, denounce, curse; to show indignation, show anger.

Indignation: anger or annoyance provoked by what is perceived as unfair treatment.

Abhorrent: inspiring disgust and loathing; repugnant.

denounce: publicly declare to be wrong or evil.

Curse: a solemn utterance intended to invoke a supernatural power to inflict harm or punishment on someone or something.(remember Christ became a curse for us when He hung, bleed, and died monsieur.)






Absolutely He was angry. He did not run them out of there because they were doing His will.



Yes He did. Jesus was 100% God, yes. Also, He was also 100% Man, too. He had human emotions, also. But in His anger, He never sinned one time.




Yes He is, never stated anything to the contrary.







Eph. 4:26 says "In your anger do not sin". It does not say we sin when we get angry. Yes, it can give place to the devil to use that anger against is, but getting angry is not sinning. Acting out on that anger, now that is a whole other matter.



If someone steals your car, that would make you angry. Now, if you go and chance them down and thump them, that is sinning. If you are angry and call the police and allow them to apprehend them, you have been angry, yes, but did not sin. Getting angry is not a sin, monsieur. It is how you handle your anger that determines if you sin or not.

You and Protestant are on the mark....:thumbs::applause::thumbs:

 

[SovereignGrace]

:applause::applause::applause:yes...this is what it has come down too.

I posted three images. One was a picture someone took of a billboard that had a sky blue background with a rainbow that said 'God loves G@ys'. The second one was a picture of a hand raised that had rainbow colors that said 'my God loves everyone'. The last one was a picture of a billboard taken of a UMC billboard that said 'Being Gay is a Gift of God'. Nothing provocative, nothing outlandish, just the cold, hard, truth and DHK edited them out.

 

[Iconoclast]

I answered directly point by point. And now you accuse me of deflecting, etc.
Perhaps you were just unable to refute my post. That is more likely the case. )

No that is not the case....he covered your posts like a triple coat of paint.

 

[Iconoclast]

I posted three images. One was a picture someone took of a billboard that had a sky blue background with a rainbow that said 'God loves G@ys'. The second one was a picture of a hand raised that had rainbow colors that said 'my God loves everyone'. The last one was a picture of a billboard taken of a UMC billboard that said 'Being Gay is a Gift of God'. Nothing provocative, nothing outlandish, just the cold, hard, truth and DHK edited them out.

Yes he edits out things.....the point was already made clearly. God hates all the workers of iniquity. ...it could be sodomites...it could be religious persons who trust in their own devices.

Notice in post 92.....he gives a good quote but then misses the proper understanding by a mile.

 

[Iconoclast]

The wrath of God is revealed from heaven Paul tells us in Romans 1...

The gospel is set against God's Holy and just anger over sin.

Notice how a dispensationalist tries to depict an angry ot God.....but a different one in the NT.???