The Eternal Purpose of God in Christ

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Basically you deny the words of Christ,

He has not denied the words of Christ. This charge is a falsehood.

You have never answered those arguments, and probably never will.

He has answered everytime.....and you have no response for his biblical correction.:wavey:

 

[DHK]

DHK


He has not denied the words of Christ. This charge is a falsehood.

He has answered everytime.....and you have no response for his biblical correction.:wavey:

Here is the quote:

Basically you deny the words of Christ, every time he turned to an individual and sad to them "thy faith has made the whole" or "be it according to your faith."
You can't explain the Roman Centurion's faith, of whom Jesus said he had greater faith than any one else in Israel. You have never answered those arguments, and probably never will.

So you answer them. Can you?

 

[Protestant]

You can't explain the Roman Centurion's faith, of whom Jesus said he had greater faith than any one else in Israel. You have never answered those arguments, and probably never will.

Never assume.

You take for granted that which is yet to be proved: i.e. the faith of the Centurion originated with the Centurion.

Had there been no other Scriptures to prove your assumption errant, we should all honor and revere this Centurion, as do you, as the exemplary role model of man-created faith to which we should all strive to attain.

In fact, there should be churches erected in his name: ‘Blessed Centurion Church of the Most Holy Faith.’

But alas, we have much Scriptures which disprove your assumption.

Of course, we realize no matter how many Scriptural proofs to the contrary, your will is unbendable, incapable of surrender.

Thus, this exercise is really for those whose wills are still pliable and whose minds are not permanently shut.

The Disciples were all of Israel. Did our Lord dismiss their faith as subservient to that of the Centurion?

In fact, Jesus was quite explicit in explaining the origin of their faith:

It is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. (Matt. 13:11)

The giver of spiritual knowledge is God, as is the faith to believe that knowledge.

God gave the Centurion something which He does not give all men: faith in Christ.

The Centurion came to Jesus, humbly, in faith.

Who or what caused the Centurion to come?

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him. (John 6:44)

According to Jesus it was the Father who drew the Centurion to him in faith.

Jesus explained how it was the professional religionists remained in unbelief while the unschooled believed.

The Centurion was a Gentile, not raised in a religious Jewish household, unschooled in the Jewish faith, a babe.

O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. (Matt. 11:25-26)

It is the Father who reveals Christ to whom He will.

It is Father who hides Christ from whom He will.

It was the eternal will and purpose of the Father to reveal Himself in Christ to that Centurion.

Just as it is the eternal will and purpose of God to reveal Himself in Christ to all His Elect.

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. (Matt. 16:15-17)

It pleased the Father to reveal Jesus to Peter, to His Disciples, to the woman issuing blood, etc., as it now pleases God to reveal Jesus to spiritual Israel, consisting of the Jewish and Gentile Elect....Centurions included.

 

[Iconoclast]

Here is the quote:


So you answer them. Can you?

I can......:wavey:

however SG has already answered between post 145-150...and now Protestant has also dispensed of your ideas:laugh:

 

[SovereignGrace]

You will have to trust me on this. Don't infer or even call me a liar.
I have never heard the name before, nor anyone categorize it as a distinct theology. Just because someone has similar beliefs to mine in some respects and then puts a name to it does not mean I believe in "his theology." Perhaps it is him believing in mine.
But in reality perhaps we have some things in common, but it is doubtful that we have all things in common. Two men rarely agree on everything.

I never called you a liar, so do not even go there. I was just showing you your belief regarding the 'foreseen faith doctrine' is exactly that, God choosing those that had faith.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Basically you deny the words of Christ, every time he turned to an individual and sad to them "thy faith has made the whole" or "be it according to your faith."
You can't explain the Roman Centurion's faith, of whom Jesus said he had greater faith than any one else in Israel. You have never answered those arguments, and probably never will.

Convient you deflect from that which I exposed in your doctrine. You said God elects those that believe and damns the rest. Why are they damned? No belief. No belief, no faith. Therefore your 'all men have faith' is erroneous.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Basically you deny the words of Christ, every time he turned to an individual and sad to them "thy faith has made the whole" or "be it according to your faith."
You can't explain the Roman Centurion's faith, of whom Jesus said he had greater faith than any one else in Israel. You have never answered those arguments, and probably never will.

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.[Jn 15:5]

That Roman had witnessed the miracles of Christ. He had heard His preachings, no doubt in my mind.

 

[DHK]

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.[Jn 15:5]

That Roman had witnessed the miracles of Christ. He had heard His preachings, no doubt in my mind.

You are not reading the full story. Go and find it and read it. I can show you that he was not regenerated when Jesus said he had great faith. How does an unregenerated Roman Centurion demonstrate greater faith than any one else in Israel? That you have never answered.

 

[DHK]

I never called you a liar, so do not even go there. I was just showing you your belief regarding the 'foreseen faith doctrine' is exactly that, God choosing those that had faith.

That is all you got out of my entire explanation?? Did you even read what I said?
Let's review point by point.
1. I have never heard of the term "foreseen faith," the terminology.
2. If I have some points in common with it then so be it. I am bound to have some points in common with other people's theology. That is just common sense.
3. Perhaps the person that "invented" this name, got his theology from me???
4. Because we have some points in common doesn't mean we have all points in common, and I am sure we don't. No two men agree absolutely the same on everything.

Does that clear things up for you. I am not suggesting you are lying.

 

[DHK]

Convient you deflect from that which I exposed in your doctrine. You said God elects those that believe and damns the rest. Why are they damned? No belief. No belief, no faith. Therefore your 'all men have faith' is erroneous.

Every person has faith. It is the object of the faith that is important.
Jesus made clear that the object of a person's faith must be in Him.

If you believe the Bible you will believe the very simple words of Jesus in Mark 16:
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.

--It really is very simple. It is not a matter of election but a matter of choice.
One can choose to believe or not believe. Those are the words of Christ.

 

[DHK]

I can......:wavey:

however SG has already answered between post 145-150...and now Protestant has also dispensed of your ideas:laugh:

If you could you would answer the post. The fact that you don't answer the post proves that you can't. In posts 145-150 there is not one mention of the Roman Centurion. So you are simply barking up a tree.

 

[DHK]

Never assume.

You take for granted that which is yet to be proved: i.e. the faith of the Centurion originated with the Centurion.

Had there been no other Scriptures to prove your assumption errant, we should all honor and revere this Centurion, as do you, as the exemplary role model of man-created faith to which we should all strive to attain.

In fact, there should be churches erected in his name: ‘Blessed Centurion Church of the Most Holy Faith.’

Sarcasm doesn't prove your point. It shows ignorance.
Thus far you haven't proved anything.

But alas, we have much Scriptures which disprove your assumption.

Of course, we realize no matter how many Scriptural proofs to the contrary, your will is unbendable, incapable of surrender.

Thus, this exercise is really for those whose wills are still pliable and whose minds are not permanently shut.

The Disciples were all of Israel. Did our Lord dismiss their faith as subservient to that of the Centurion?

In fact, Jesus was quite explicit in explaining the origin of their faith:

It is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. (Matt. 13:11)

The giver of spiritual knowledge is God, as is the faith to believe that knowledge.

God gave the Centurion something which He does not give all men: faith in Christ.

No he did not. And you have no proof of that.

The Centurion came to Jesus, humbly, in faith.

Who or what caused the Centurion to come?

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him. (John 6:44)

According to Jesus it was the Father who drew the Centurion to him in faith.

An unproven assumption. You are reading into Scripture that which is not there. You are placing Calvinism ahead of sound objective hermeutical principles. Go back to school.

Jesus explained how it was the professional religionists remained in unbelief while the unschooled believed.

The Centurion was a Gentile, not raised in a religious Jewish household, unschooled in the Jewish faith, a babe.

O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. (Matt. 11:25-26)

It is the Father who reveals Christ to whom He will.

It is Father who hides Christ from whom He will.

It was the eternal will and purpose of the Father to reveal Himself in Christ to that Centurion.

Just as it is the eternal will and purpose of God to reveal Himself in Christ to all His Elect.

This man was an unbeliever. You are applying scriptures taken out of context.
Truly you are one that butchers the word of God. You do know what "rightly dividing the word of truth" means don't you?

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. (Matt. 16:15-17)

It pleased the Father to reveal Jesus to Peter, to His Disciples, to the woman issuing blood, etc., as it now pleases God to reveal Jesus to spiritual Israel, consisting of the Jewish and Gentile Elect....Centurions included.

He never said those things to the Roman Centurion.
You are way off base. You argument is self-defeating.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Every person has faith. It is the object of the faith that is important.
Jesus made clear that the object of a person's faith must be in Him.

If you believe the Bible you will believe the very simple words of Jesus in Mark 16:
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but he that believeth not shall be damned.

--It really is very simple. It is not a matter of election but a matter of choice.
One can choose to believe or not believe. Those are the words of Christ.

So, even unbelievers have faith? Faith devoid of good works is dead, which is, in reality, no faith. The Unregenerate have bad fruit, monsieur, and can not produce good fruit. Only good trees produce good fruit.

Your theology has gaping hole after gaping hole in it. Instead of you being willing to learn, you have been sucked into those gaping holes.

 

[Iconoclast]

(Sarcasm doesn't prove your point. It shows ignorance. )


interesting as the rest of your post is sarcasm:laugh::laugh::thumbsup:look...



(Thus far you haven't proved anything.

No he did not. And you have no proof of that.
An unproven assumption. You are reading into Scripture that which is not there. You are placing Calvinism ahead of sound objective hermeutical principles. Go back to school.

Truly you are one that butchers the word of God. You do know what "rightly dividing the word of truth" means don't you?)

 

[Iconoclast]

So, even unbelievers have faith? Faith devoid of good works is dead, which is, in reality, no faith. The Unregenerate have bad fruit, monsieur, and can not produce good fruit. Only good trees produce good fruit.

Your theology has gaping hole after gaping hole in it. Instead of you being willing to learn, you have been sucked into those gaping holes.

Excellent point good observation in this post I think you have been on it the whole time and he has failed to respond to any of your posts in a way that would give a reasoned answer:wavey:

 

[Reformed]

So an Elect person on whom the "Irresistible Grace" of God falls will have no option but to believe and be saved? And you guys don't see that as God forcing salvation on the Elect (and likewise forcing damnation on the non Elect)? You really think that God doesn't force you into whatever state you will be in, seeing as you have no option at all?



You say "the theogical term speaks of the saving grace of God which is granted to the elect that is not ultimately rejected." Does that mean that there are Elect people who do reject the call? Again, if not, you cannot say that God is not forcing salvation on man. If man has no option but to accept the grace of God, then it is not a "free choice" on his part.

Monergists do not see God as forcing anything, although we do confess God is responsible for first causes. All sinners believe freely after their wills have been made able to believe.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Every person has faith.

Even those dead and in hell?

If you believe the Bible

There is no 'if', I do, mon ami.

--It really is very simple.

If so, then why has this issue been going on for centuries?

It is not a matter of election but a matter of choice.

Oh now I have read it all now. It is not about election(God choosing man) but a matter of choice(man choosing God). Feel freeD) to take sinful man off the throne anytime now.

One can choose to believe or not believe. Those are the words of Christ.

One can choose to have faith or not, in other words. If one chooses to not have faith, then all men do not have faith. Thereby, this refutes your 'all men have faith' mantra.

You theology is so dis-jointed, it has no foundation in the scriptures. All men have faith, but people can choose not to have faith(believe), so then not all men have faith. Your theology is so...

 

[DHK]

So, even unbelievers have faith? Faith devoid of good works is dead, which is, in reality, no faith. The Unregenerate have bad fruit, monsieur, and can not produce good fruit. Only good trees produce good fruit.

Your theology has gaping hole after gaping hole in it. Instead of you being willing to learn, you have been sucked into those gaping holes.

[/quote]
You ask supposedly rhetorical questions, but they are questions that do have an answer, answers that you simply do not want to accept!
Jesus gives you the answers you want (or don't want depending on your point of view).
Be honest with yourself.

Jesus said:
1. Little children have faith. (But little children are not regenerate).
2. The Roman Centurion had great faith, but was not regenerate.
3. Ten lepers had faith. Only one returned and was saved. The others remained unregenerate. They were healed according to their faith.
4. The woman of Phoemecia was healed according to her faith. She was not a regenerated person.
5. The paralyzed man was let down into the house via the roof. Jesus healed him because of the faith of the four men that let him down. It was their faith or according to their faith that their friend was healed.
--Not God, not Jesus gave any of the above "faith." Where then, did it come from?

 

[PreachTony]

Monergists do not see God as forcing anything, although we do confess God is responsible for first causes. All sinners believe freely after their wills have been made able to believe.

So, if God changes a sinner's will so that they can "freely believe," is it possible for that sinner to not believe in God?

If not, then I can't help but see this argument as nothing more than semantics. It's like someone claiming to be "pro-life" instead of "anti-abortion." It's just a word game.

 

[DHK]

Even those dead and in hell?

Yes. Like the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man had so much faith he asked Abraham to send Lazarus to his five brothers. He had faith that Lazarus would be able to convince them of the truth so that they wouldn't have to come to the same place that he was in.

If so, then why has this issue been going on for centuries?

Perhaps it is a simple matter of unbelief.

Oh now I have read it all now. It is not about election(God choosing man) but a matter of choice(man choosing God). Feel freeD) to take sinful man off the throne anytime now.

There is nothing in the Bible or the definition of sovereignty to limit its definition to the exclusion of free will. Why is the Calvinist terrified to allow the sovereignty of God to include man's choice or freedom to choose between right and wrong? Are the limitations they place on sovereignty too great for God to bear (in their minds)?

One can choose to have faith or not, in other words. If one chooses to not have faith, then all men do not have faith. Thereby, this refutes your 'all men have faith' mantra.

Every person has faith. It is the object of faith that is important. You exercised faith when you put your hand on your keyboard posted this message. And in faith you believed it would show up perhaps in Canada here or in many other places in the world. I don't know you. I have never seen you. But somehow your message (by your faith) has reached me. You put your faith in the person who constructed the internet and said it would work, and your experience in using it--your relationship with it and your computer and other technology that you trust.
Faith is confidence. Where have you been putting your faith and confidence?
In computers and the internet? Or, when it comes to spiritual things do you put your faith in Christ? Faith is faith. Faith is not mystical.

You theology is so dis-jointed, it has no foundation in the scriptures. All men have faith, but people can choose not to have faith(believe), so then not all men have faith. Your theology is so...

You sound like you have some kind of existential and mystical religion whereas faith is mysterious and mystical, but it isn't. Faith is simple confidence in the word of another. Biblical faith is faith or confidence in the promises of Christ in the Word of God.