The Extent of Jesus' Death

[Acts2.21]

• [John 10:11, 14-15 NASB] 11 "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. ... 14 "I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15 even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
• [John 10:26-30 NASB] 26 "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 "My Father, who has given [them] to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father's hand. 30 "I and the Father are one."

Jesus died for "His sheep" ... the sheep that the Father had given him ... the ship that will never perish. As it is written:

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." [John 6:44 NASB]

so, John 3:16 only applies to "the sheep"?

 

[Acts2.21]

It is written of little children born wicked, ". . . The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. . . ." -- Psalms 58:3.

". . . the whole world lieth in wickedness. . . ." -- 1 John 5:19. (1 John 2:2)

I don't deny that we are all born with "sinful" human natures. However, the term "sinner" means that a "sin" first needs to have been committed. The sinful human nature from Adam has been passed down, but no actual sin before it is committed, which every human will if they live beyond the age of "knowing right from wrong". Otherwise this expression which is from Scripture, is pointless. Can you explain what Isaiah 7:15, Deuteronomy 1:39, Romans 9:11, etc, mean?

 

[37818]

I don't deny that we are all born with "sinful" human natures. However, the term "sinner" means that a "sin" first needs to have been committed. The sinful human nature from Adam has been passed down, but no actual sin before it is committed, which every human will if they live beyond the age of "knowing right from wrong". Otherwise this expression which is from Scripture, is pointless. Can you explain what Isaiah 7:15, Deuteronomy 1:39, Romans 9:11, etc, mean?

So are you arguing Christ did not need to die for little children who die? Is it not so written in Isaiah 7:16, ". . . For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, . . ."

 

[atpollard]

so, John 3:16 only applies to "the sheep"?

[John 3:16-18 NASB] 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Jew and Greek

• [Rom 1:16 NASB] 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
• [Rom 2:9-10 NASB] 9 [There will be] tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
• [Rom 10:12 NASB] 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same [Lord] is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;
• [Gal 3:28 NASB] 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
• [Col 3:11 NASB] 11 [a renewal] in which there is no [distinction between] Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.

All Nations

• [Psa 67:2 NASB] 2 That Your way may be known on the earth, Your salvation among all nations.
• [Psa 72:11, 17 NASB] 11 And let all kings bow down before him, All nations serve him. ... 17 May his name endure forever; May his name increase as long as the sun [shines;] And let [men] bless themselves by him; Let all nations call him blessed.
• [Psa 86:9 NASB] 9 All nations whom You have made shall come and worship before You, O Lord, And they shall glorify Your name.
• [Psa 117:1 NASB] 1 Praise the LORD, all nations; Laud Him, all peoples!
• [Isa 66:18 NASB] 18 "For I know their works and their thoughts; the time is coming to gather all nations and tongues. And they shall come and see My glory.
• [Amo 9:9 NASB] 9 "For behold, I am commanding, And I will shake the house of Israel among all nations As [grain] is shaken in a sieve, But not a kernel will fall to the ground.
• [Mat 28:19-20 NASB] 19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Every Nation

• [Act 2:5 NASB] 5 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven.
• [Act 10:35 NASB] 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.
• [Rev 7:9 NASB] 9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and [all] tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches [were] in their hands;
• [Rev 14:6 NASB] 6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;

Jesus' sheep, drawn by the Father and present in Heaven, are from every "nation and tribe and tongue and people", so God does indeed love the "world" and gave His Son to save the "world".

 

[HankD]

Each passage must be exegeted on its own, in context with regard to syntax and grammar as well. We cannot make one-size-fits-all blanket statements that "all" means all nations (for instance) without regard to EACH individual person. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't sometimes it can't be determined.

 

[Van]

It is circular. But this is what you've been taught. You would never "choose to believe" if you weren't already a saved believer.

And you would not spout such nonsense if you had not been indoctrinated with man-made views.

 

[1689Dave]

And you would not spout such nonsense if you had not been indoctrinated with man-made views.

Who in there right mind does anything if they do not first believe it is worth doing?

 

[Van]

Who believes anything valid unless they are in their right mind. Circular argumentation is the tool of deflectors.

Christ died for all mankind, becoming the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world. To deny this is to be in a wrong mind.

 

[1689Dave]

Who believes anything unless they are in their right mind. Circular argumentation is the tool of deflectors.

Christ died for all mankind, becoming the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world. To deny this is to be in a wrong mind.

If so, why aren't all saved? If he paid for all the sins of all people?

 

[Van]

Did God credit everyone's faith in Christ as righteousness? Nope. Only those whose faith has been credited by God are transferred into Christ. Christ's death provides the means of salvation for all mankind. God credited faith in Christ provides the basis for God choosing an individual for salvation by setting him or her apart in Christ.

 

[1689Dave]

Did God credit everyone's faith in Christ as righteousness? Nope. Only those whose faith has been credited by God are transferred into Christ. Christ's death provides the means of salvation for all mankind. God credited faith in Christ provides the basis for God choosing an individual for salvation by setting him or her apart in Christ.

So it didn't pay for all sin? The sin of unbelief?

 

[Reformed1689]

It looks like you are the one doing the "twisting" here! Your personal theology does not allow you to accept what the Bible very plainly teaches!!!

That's not twisting. Words mean things. Context means things. Agreeing with the whole of Scripture means things.

 

[Van]

What did I say? His death "bought" all mankind, placing us under the New Covenant in His blood. He became the means of salvation. When are our sins removed? When God transfers us into Christ where we undergo the washing of regeneration, the circumcision of Christ.

Were non-believers bought and put under the New Covenant, those guilty of "unbelief." Yes, 2 Peter 2:1-2. Did that save them? Nope. Did that remove their sins? Nope. Did He pay for the right to remove all the sins of everyone given to Him. Yes

Try addressing the concept of Christ dying for all mankind, thus becoming the means of salvation for all mankind, rather than repeating 400 year old fallacies.

 

[1689Dave]

What did I say? His death "bought" all mankind, placing us under the New Covenant in His blood. He became the means of salvation. When are our sins removed? When God transfers us into Christ where we undergo the washing of regeneration, the circumcision of Christ.

Were non-believers bought and put under the New Covenant, those guilty of "unbelief." Yes, 2 Peter 2:1-2. Did that save them? Nope. Did that remove their sins? Nope. Did He pay for the right to remove all the sins of everyone given to Him. Yes

Try addressing the concept of Christ dying for all mankind, thus becoming the means of salvation for all mankind, rather than repeating 400 year old fallacies.

If he paid for all the ins of all people, why so few saved? Isn't rejecting the Covenant sin?

 

[37818]

If so, why aren't all saved? If he paid for all the sins of all people?

For an expample, Acts of the Apostles 7:51.

 

[1689Dave]

For an expample, Acts of the Apostles 7:51.

Didn't Jesus pay for this sin too?

 

[loDebar]

If so, why aren't all saved? If he paid for all the sins of all people?

choice

 

[JonC]

Due to its length this thread will close after 7pm EST.

Please feel free to start a new thread if desired.

 

[1689Dave]

choice

How about the sin of not choosing?

 

[loDebar]

How about the sin of not choosing?

everyone is condemned already, how is not choosing a further sin?