The False Doctrine of the Immortality of the Soul..

[Dave G]

Yea hardly anyone reads them

I remember when I was growing up in Independent Baptist Churches ( after I believed on Christ in 1978 ), and it seems to me that most people in those churches didn't even care about Scriptural detail very much.
Apparently they were satisfied with almost anything their pastors said, and believed that, "If it comes from the man of God, it must be true".

Now that I'm in my 50's, I've come to the conclusion that many professing believers don't aren't even interested enough in the Scriptures to check their own pastors on what is being taught from the pulpits.
To them, if it "sounds right", then there's no reason to back-check it...
Especially if it's punctuated with enough verses that appear to show it.

To me, the remedy for that is and always has been for the believer to take 1 Peter 2:2 and 2 Timothy 2:15 to heart.
That way, they grow in both knowledge and grace, and aren't fooled by teachings that appear Scriptural, but in reality are not.

See Ephesians 4.



I think that if more believers took an interest in the details ( and asked their pastors to be fully transparent from God's word on every detail of their teachings ), it would be far less likely for a false teacher to slip in unawares and trouble Christ's sheep with things that the Bible does not teach.

 

[tyndale1946]

I remember when I was growing up in Independent Baptist Churches ( after I believed on Christ in 1978 ), and it seems to me that most people in those churches didn't even care about Scriptural detail very much.
Apparently they were satisfied with almost anything their pastors said, and believed that, "If it comes from the man of God, it must be true".

Now that I'm in my 50's, I've come to the conclusion that many professing believers don't aren't even interested enough in the Scriptures to check their own pastors on what is being taught from the pulpits.
To them, if it "sounds right", then there's no reason to back-check it...
Especially if it's punctuated with enough verses that appear to show it.

To me, the remedy for that is and always has been for the believer to take 1 Peter 2:2 and 2 Timothy 2:15 to heart.
That way, they grow in both knowledge and grace, and aren't fooled by teachings that appear Scriptural, but in reality are not.

See Ephesians 4.



I think that if more believers took an interest in the details ( and asked their pastors to be fully transparent from God's word on every detail of their teachings ), it would be far less likely for a false teacher to slip in unawares and trouble Christ's sheep with things that the Bible does not teach.

I DON'T BELIEVE IN SOUL SLEEP!... So what is the living spirit that went to God doing?... What about the evil spirits, where do they go?... We know the beggar was in the bosom of Abraham and the rich man was tormented in a flame... Both living, awaiting their bodies to join them, in the resurrection... That's how I see it... Those who belong to Christ will be in the presence of Lord, the others are of no concern to me because if not for Christ and the unconditional mercy of God, I would be just like them!... That is a sobering thought... Brother Glen

 

[canadyjd]

He talked to them directly, Elijah didn't die and Moses was brought up as we saw, so the Bible explains itself.

What does “Moses was brought up” mean? Was he physically resurrected? Is that what you mean?

They didn’t exist physically, they were in a bright light with Jesus. Why was Jesus transfigured? If Elijah and Moses were there physically, why the need for a bright light? Why the need for Jesus to be transfigured?

Your beliefs don’t make any sense to me in the light of scripture.

peace to you

 

[Revmitchell]

I remember when I was growing up in Independent Baptist Churches ( after I believed on Christ in 1978 ), and it seems to me that most people in those churches didn't even care about Scriptural detail very much.
Apparently they were satisfied with almost anything their pastors said, and believed that, "If it comes from the man of God, it must be true".

Now that I'm in my 50's, I've come to the conclusion that many professing believers don't aren't even interested enough in the Scriptures to check their own pastors on what is being taught from the pulpits.
To them, if it "sounds right", then there's no reason to back-check it...
Especially if it's punctuated with enough verses that appear to show it.

To me, the remedy for that is and always has been for the believer to take 1 Peter 2:2 and 2 Timothy 2:15 to heart.
That way, they grow in both knowledge and grace, and aren't fooled by teachings that appear Scriptural, but in reality are not.

See Ephesians 4.



I think that if more believers took an interest in the details ( and asked their pastors to be fully transparent from God's word on every detail of their teachings ), it would be far less likely for a false teacher to slip in unawares and trouble Christ's sheep with things that the Bible does not teach.

Naa not reading long posts on this board has nothing to do with not caring about details. Such claims are made by those who like to drone on and on about their own ideas and then get mad when no one pays attention.

People dont like to read them because of the lack of preciseness and the many unnecessary postilations.

 

[Dave G]

Naa not reading long posts on this board has nothing to do with not caring about details. Such claims are made by those who like to drone on and on about their own ideas and then get mad when no one pays attention.

What I'm attempting to put forth is this:

For those who care about the Scriptures and every word of God, the details are what develop how and why one believes what they do.
Yes, I agree that it could be done in a more brief manner.

But to dismiss long posts as being unworthy of reading just because of their length?
If that is what is being said, then I disagree with that idea just on principle.

Some people aren't interested in the details, and some are.

 

[Dave G]

I will show that the Bible actually does not support this theory. In fact, according to the Bible there is no spirit inside of us at all. We exist only as mortal bodies, made from dust having been given the breath of life. And it is this “breath of life” that is confused with, or interpreted as, a “spirit”.

Hobie,
God's word describes 3 "essences" to man:

1) Body.
2) Soul.
3) Spirit.

Here are some Scriptures that prove this out:

1 Corinthians 2:11
Job 32:8
Ecclesiastes 12:7
2 Corinthians 4:16.
1 Corinthians 6:20.

and here they are all described in one verse:
1 Thessalonians 5:23:

" And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."


...just as their are 3 "essences" to God:

1) God the Father
2) God the Son.
3) God the Holy Spirit.

" For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." ( 1 John 5:7 ).

 

[Dave G]

Imagine the traditional teaching, where we have a spirit and we go to heaven as a spirit when we die. Then please tell me, what is the point of the resurrection?

Which resurrection...
The first or second?

For the believer, the first is unto life.
A glorified and perfect body, free from sin.

For the unbeliever, the second is unto eternal death and torment in the Lake of Fire.
It's all in the Bible, Hobie.
Read Revelation 20.

There are two separate and distinct resurrections, and two separate and distinct deaths.

 

[37818]

...just as their are 3 "essences" to God:

1) God the Father
2) God the Son.
3) God the Holy Spirit.

False, They are three distinct Persons one essence, John 4:24, Romans 8:9, Romans 8:16.

 

[Dave G]

False, They are three distinct Persons one essence, John 4:24, Romans 8:9, Romans 8:16.

That's why I said "essences".
They are 3 distinct Persons, yet One in agreement / essence.

The statement is made for those who do not understand that God is literally Three, yet One.
1 John 5:7 describes how They are ...

The "Trinity" has always been a matter of confusion for many.
But for the believer in Christ, it is just accepted that what God's word says, is true.

We accept it by faith.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

I remember when I was growing up in Independent Baptist Churches ( after I believed on Christ in 1978 ), and it seems to me that most people in those churches didn't even care about Scriptural detail very much.
Apparently they were satisfied with almost anything their pastors said, and believed that, "If it comes from the man of God, it must be true".

Now that I'm in my 50's, I've come to the conclusion that many professing believers don't aren't even interested enough in the Scriptures to check their own pastors on what is being taught from the pulpits.
To them, if it "sounds right", then there's no reason to back-check it...
Especially if it's punctuated with enough verses that appear to show it.

To me, the remedy for that is and always has been for the believer to take 1 Peter 2:2 and 2 Timothy 2:15 to heart.
That way, they grow in both knowledge and grace, and aren't fooled by teachings that appear Scriptural, but in reality are not.

See Ephesians 4.



I think that if more believers took an interest in the details ( and asked their pastors to be fully transparent from God's word on every detail of their teachings ), it would be far less likely for a false teacher to slip in unawares and trouble Christ's sheep with things that the Bible does not teach.

Well said brother! Recently, I have shared some very unpopular truths in scripture (freewill is a lie! God's children are to separate from non-believers.) with members of the church and Sunday School we attended prior to Covid19. I was hoping and expecting to get some kickback. Results: nothing. After six weeks or so has passed, not one response. I conclude they do not want confrontation or to be challenged.

 

[37818]

The statement is made for those who do not understand that God is literally Three, yet One.
1 John 5:7 describes how They are ...

What is your evidence that the words in 1 John 5:7-8, ". . .
in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, . . ." are the word of God? The word of God without question for 1 John 5:7-8, to be, "For there are three that bear record, The spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." Which most, 99% of manuscripts actually read.

 

[Dave G]

What is your evidence that the words in 1 John 5:7-8, ". . .
in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, . . ." are the word of God?

I know that they are God's words because I inherently know my Saviour's words ( John 10:27 ).
They resonate with my spirit.

I also know that they are God's words because they are in my Bible...
The same one I've been using since I came to know the Lord in 1978 to comfort me and to give me hope.

The never-changing word of God.

So, my evidence is my faith in them as the words of God .
You are, of course, free to disagree and to claim that they are not God's words if you wish.
I have never questioned them as coming from the Lord for over 40 years...
And I'm not about to start now.

 

[37818]

That's why I said "essences".
They are 3 distinct Persons, yet One in agreement / essence.

The statement is made for those who do not understand that God is literally Three, yet One.
1 John 5:7 describes how They are ...

The "Trinity" has always been a matter of confusion for many.
But for the believer in Christ, it is just accepted that what God's word says, is true.

We accept it by faith.

Anything true needs to be believed in order to be knowledge. Faith/belief does not make anything true, but is what one acknowledges to be true. The "Trinity" is the name of the interpretation that there are three persons known as the one and the same God/YHWH. 1 John 5:7 is problematic. And as such, a very poor "Scripture" to show the Trinty explanation from the word of God. And 1 John 5:7 is now used as a proof text by some that the Trinity explanation is not true. It is bettter to show the Son is God and that the Holy Spirit is God, and that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct persons, and that there is only one God who is only one in essence.

Now God is one essence, John 4:24, Mark 12:29.

SDA are Trinitarian.

 

[Dave G]

The word of God without question for 1 John 5:7-8, to be, "For there are three that bear record, The spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." Which most, 99% of manuscripts actually read.

Without question?
With respect, I agree that you have the right to assert that, but I don't have to recognize that it is "without question", since I and many others I know, question it.
In fact, I question that my Bible has it as:

" This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." ( 1 John 5:7-8, AV).

This agrees closely ( in the English ) with the 1599 Geneva, Douai-Rheims 1582 and 1899, NKJV, Wycliffe's Bible, Tyndale's New Testament, Bishop's Bible, Taverner's Bible, the Great Bible, the Matthew's Bible and several others;
In the French with the Louis Segond of 1872.
In the Spanish with the Rheina-Valera 1602.


And most that have been produced after 1881 have it as:

" This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood.
7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.
8 For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one." ( 1 John 5:7-8, ASV ).

Notice how the ASV has clipped " For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." out of the text and taken part of verse 6 and called it verse 7.

I see it as a very neat trick, by a certain someone who started this whole ball rolling in the Garden...
"Yeah, hath God said?"
To me, this as "Textual Criticism" ( Yeah, Hath God said? ) at it's finest.


I'm also sure that there have been multiple threads on this forum dealing with this subject, and if you care to consult them ( in the section labeled, "Bible Versions and Translations" ) you may find my answers there.
My position is not hidden, but I have instead stated, in-depth, why I believe them to be His very words.
Please refer to my comments there, as I think that we would be taking away from the focus of this thread, which is, " The False Doctrine of the Immortality of the Soul."


Good afternoon to you, sir.

 

[37818]

Without question?
With respect, I agree that you have the right to assert that, but I don't have to recognize that it is "without question", since I and many others I know, question it.
In fact, I question that my Bible has it as:

" This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." ( 1 John 5:7-8, AV).

This agrees closely ( in the English ) with the 1599 Geneva, Douai-Rheims 1582 and 1899, NKJV, Wycliffe's Bible, Tyndale's New Testament, Bishop's Bible, Taverner's Bible, the Great Bible, the Matthew's Bible and several others;
In the French with the Louis Segond of 1872.
In the Spanish with the Rheina-Valera 1602.


And most that have been produced after 1881 have it as:

" This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood.
7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.
8 For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one." ( 1 John 5:7-8, ASV ).

Notice how the ASV has clipped " For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." out of the text and taken part of verse 6 and called it verse 7.

I see it as a very neat trick, by a certain someone who started this whole ball rolling in the Garden...
"Yeah, hath God said?"
To me, this as "Textual Criticism" ( Yeah, Hath God said? ) at it's finest.


I'm also sure that there have been multiple threads on this forum dealing with this subject, and if you care to consult them ( in the section labeled, "Bible Versions and Translations" ) you may find my answers there.
My position is not hidden, but I have instead stated, in-depth, why I believe them to be His very words.
Please refer to my comments there, as I think that we would be taking away from the focus of this thread, which is, " The False Doctrine of the Immortality of the Soul."


Good afternoon to you, sir.

I am in an agreement that the teaching of the "immortality of the soul" is a false teaching. I also believe the teachings "soul sleep" and denial of the "eternal suffering" of the lost are also false teachings.

 

[George Antonios]

As a general rule, the longer the OP is, the greater the heresy.

 

[Alofa Atu]

As a general rule, the longer the OP is, the greater the heresy.

Praise the Lord for exceptions, then.

 

[37818]

Praise the Lord for exceptions, then.

The mortality of the soul, Isaiah 53:10, Isaiah 53:12. Is not the heresy.

 

[Hobie]

What does “Moses was brought up” mean? Was he physically resurrected? Is that what you mean?

They didn’t exist physically, they were in a bright light with Jesus. Why was Jesus transfigured? If Elijah and Moses were there physically, why the need for a bright light? Why the need for Jesus to be transfigured?

Your beliefs don’t make any sense to me in the light of scripture.

peace to you

Its simple, did Elijah die, no. So he is alive bodily, and Moses the same after one is resurrected. Now the bright light was what we see happening to Christ...'2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.'

 

[Hobie]

The mortality of the soul, Isaiah 53:10, Isaiah 53:12. Is not the heresy.

Ok, lets look at Creation and how the father of lies started twisting the truth of this from back then:

Genesis 3 King James Version (KJV)
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

God made man in his own image, but did not make him immortal or of the same substance that he possesses. Our Creator is composed of spirit and is eternal. Humans were made, however, out of the ground or organic substance that constitutes the earth. Adam only became a living being (but not an immortal soul) when God breathed life into him.

The first lie the devil wanted Eve to believe as we can see revolves around the concept of an immortal soul. Eve stated she was instructed not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or else she would die.

Satan countered that God was lying and that she would not perish. We see that this lie has spread even into Christians today. God's justification for casting Adam and Eve out of the Garden was, "lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever".

If all humans automatically have a soul that is immortal then barring them from the Tree of Life would not make a difference since they would already possess something that would keep them alive into the future. If, however, Adam and Eve did not possess an immortal soul that allowed them to live forever, then God's concern about them acquiring this ability is justified.