The false SDA doctrine of "annihilationism"...

[Wesley Briggman]

All your ranting and private interps of certain bible verses does NOT change the truth of the verses from Revelation I quoted in the OP. If you wanna go on believing the garbage of EGW, William Branham, Herbie Armstrong, and Arnold Murray, that's between you and GOD. Meanwhile, I'll continue denouncing that doctrine as FALSE.

Add John Stott to the list.

"John Stott also believed in the concept of annihilationism, i.e., that the souls of the lost are eventually allowed to perish instead of burning throughout eternity in the lake of fire of a literal hell. Stott’s belief in annihilationism ran contrary to the beliefs of the Anglican Church and many other mainstream Christian denominations."
John Stott Annihilationism

 

[One Baptism]

In this thread, the word "church" is used 13 times - this church, that church and the other church.

Not once is the term ekklēsia invoked. I believe the THE church, the Body of Christ came into existence at Pentecost.

Act 2:4 KJV - And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Example of God's invoking a natural physical event with supernatural results.
Exo 3:2 KJV - And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush [was] not consumed.

He can cause a soul to be consumed with fire and not cease to exist - a supernatural event.

You would be incorrect about the church coming into existence at Pentecost, for it existed long before that:

Acts 7:38 KJB - This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Acts 7:38 KJB - ουτος εστιν ο γενομενος εν τη εκκλησια εν τη ερημω μετα του αγγελου του λαλουντος αυτω εν τω ορει σινα και των πατερων ημων ος εδεξατο λογια ζωντα δουναι ημιν​

That is even speaking of Moses, and the body of Jesus Christ there, in the past. Moses is my brother, in Christ, as is Daniel, etc.

The example of the burning bush, is the perfect example of Christ Jesus in us [the redeemed] in type. It is not an example of how the wicked will be, since Christ Jesus is not in them:

Penitently redeemed:

John 14:20 KJB - At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

John 15:4 KJB Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Exodus 3:2 KJB - And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.​

Stubbornly wicked:

John 5:38 KJB - And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

John 8:37 KJB - I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

John 5:42 KJB - But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

Exodus 33:5 KJB - For the LORD had said unto Moses, Say unto the children of Israel, Ye are a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of thee in a moment, and consume thee: therefore now put off thy ornaments from thee, that I may know what to do unto thee.​

You do not know it, but you are actually blaspheming God's very name an character by teaching what you teach. Think carefully about it, please.

Notice the contrast between Exodus 3:2, with Christ Jesus in the midst of the bush, and the bush was "not consumed", and then see Exodus 33:5, wherein the peoples did not have Christ Jesus abiding within, and were about to be totally "consumed".

Now, what does "consume" mean?

 

[One Baptism]

None of this cancels out the verses I quoted in the OP. Both heaven and hell will be eternal. Ellen Gould White was simply wrong.

Heaven is eternal, no doubt, for God Himself is Eternal Life, and the redeemed will be indwelt by God throughout eternity, but the wicked are not so indwelt, but are found to be outside of God, rather than abiding in God. And since they are found outside of God, they are found outside of eternal life.

How then are the wicked to have eternal existence?

As shown, the words, of Revelation 20:10, "even for ever and ever", are Koine Greek, "εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων", which when seen in their context, locally and globally through the scripture [KJB], do not always mean eternal, but can mean limited in time, and can even deal with distance, or even spacial ["world"].

Can an "αιων" [aiwn, aeon, in either time, distance or space] come to an end? Yes, even as Paul shows in Hebrews:

Hebrew 9:26 KJB - For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Hebrew 9:26 KJB - επει εδει αυτον πολλακις παθειν απο καταβολης κοσμου νυν δε απαξ επι συντελεια των αιωνων εις αθετησιν αμαρτιας δια της θυσιας αυτου πεφανερωται
​

Notice, "end of the world [aeon]". Notice again:

Titus 2:12 KJB - Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Titus 2:12 KJB - παιδευουσα ημας ινα αρνησαμενοι την ασεβειαν και τας κοσμικας επιθυμιας σωφρονως και δικαιως και ευσεβως ζησωμεν εν τω νυν αιωνι
​

Notice, "in this present world [aeon]", which indicates that there is an end to the current "world", or existence, and another "world" [aeon], or existence, to follow after it. Thus and "aeon" can come to an end, and is not necessarily eternal. See also "since the world began", "before this world", "this present evil world", "this world", in Matthew 12:32, Matthew 13:22, Matthew 13:39-40 (2), Matthew 13:49, Matthew 24:3, Matthew 28:20, Mark 4:19, Mark 10:30, Luke 1:70, Luke 16:8, Luke 18:30, Luke 20:34-35 (2), John 9:32, Acts 3:21, Acts 15:18, Romans 12:2, 1 Corinthians 1:20, 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 (4), 1 Corinthians 3:18, 1 Corinthians 8:13, 1 Corinthians 10:11, 2 Corinthians 4:4, Galatians 1:4, Ephesians 1:21, Ephesians 3:9, Ephesians 3:21, Ephesians 6:12, 1 Timothy 6:17, 2 Timothy 4:10, Titus 2:12, Hebrews 6:5, Hebrews 9:26; and etc. We now see that "aeon's" can begin, and end, and are not always ongoing without ceasing, and thus context always determines the length, distance, existence, etc.

Notice how the Bible uses the word "for ever":

Jonah 2:6 KJB - I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

Jonah 2:6 (2:7) (so-called) LXX - κατέβην εἰς γῆν, ἧς οἱ μοχλοὶ αὐτῆς κάτοχοι αἰώνιοι, καὶ ἀναβήτω φθορὰ ζωῆς μου, κύριε ὁ θεός μου.​

In both distance and time, it is impossible for the word "for ever" in Jonah to be eternal, or without end. Not only does earth have limited space [thus "ends of the earth", dry land is earth, see Genesis 1], but Jonah was only 3 days and 3 nights, timewise, in the belly:

Jonah 1:17 KJB - Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.​

Therefore, in either case, "for ever" is limited, in this instance, in distance and time.

In Deuteronomy 23:3 KJB, “forever” means 10 generations. It can also mean “as long as he lives,” or “to death.”; thus see 1 Samuel 1:22, 28; Exodus 21:6; Psalms 48:14 KJB.

The redeemed will have eternal life, because Jesus is eternal life, but the wicked will never have eternal existence:

Psalms 21:4 KJB - He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever.

Ecclesiastes 8:13 KJB - But it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he feareth not before God.​

Iniquity must be purged and cleansed from the universe, and it will not happen until the wicked cease to be:

Isaiah 22:14 KJB - And it was revealed in mine ears by the LORD of hosts, Surely this iniquity shall not be purged from you till ye die, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.

Psalms 37:10 KJB - For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.​

When will these verses be fulfilled in your understanding:

Malachi 4:1 KJB - For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Malachi 4:3 KJB - And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.​

 

[Wesley Briggman]

You would be incorrect about the church coming into existence at Pentecost, for it existed long before that:

Acts 7:38 KJB - This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Acts 7:38 KJB - ουτος εστιν ο γενομενος εν τη εκκλησια εν τη ερημω μετα του αγγελου του λαλουντος αυτω εν τω ορει σινα και των πατερων ημων ος εδεξατο λογια ζωντα δουναι ημιν​

That is even speaking of Moses, and the body of Jesus Christ there, in the past. Moses is my brother, in Christ, as is Daniel, etc.

The example of the burning bush, is the perfect example of Christ Jesus in us [the redeemed] in type. It is not an example of how the wicked will be, since Christ Jesus is not in them:

Penitently redeemed:

John 14:20 KJB - At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

John 15:4 KJB Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Exodus 3:2 KJB - And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.​

Stubbornly wicked:

John 5:38 KJB - And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

John 8:37 KJB - I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

John 5:42 KJB - But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

Exodus 33:5 KJB - For the LORD had said unto Moses, Say unto the children of Israel, Ye are a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of thee in a moment, and consume thee: therefore now put off thy ornaments from thee, that I may know what to do unto thee.​

You do not know it, but you are actually blaspheming God's very name an character by teaching what you teach. Think carefully about it, please.

Notice the contrast between Exodus 3:2, with Christ Jesus in the midst of the bush, and the bush was "not consumed", and then see Exodus 33:5, wherein the peoples did not have Christ Jesus abiding within, and were about to be totally "consumed".

Now, what does "consume" mean?[/QUOTE

You would be incorrect about the church coming into existence at Pentecost, for it existed long before that:

Acts 7:38 KJB - This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Acts 7:38 KJB - ουτος εστιν ο γενομενος εν τη εκκλησια εν τη ερημω μετα του αγγελου του λαλουντος αυτω εν τω ορει σινα και των πατερων ημων ος εδεξατο λογια ζωντα δουναι ημιν​

That is even speaking of Moses, and the body of Jesus Christ there, in the past. Moses is my brother, in Christ, as is Daniel, etc.

The example of the burning bush, is the perfect example of Christ Jesus in us [the redeemed] in type. It is not an example of how the wicked will be, since Christ Jesus is not in them:

Penitently redeemed:

John 14:20 KJB - At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

John 15:4 KJB Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Exodus 3:2 KJB - And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.​

Stubbornly wicked:

John 5:38 KJB - And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

John 8:37 KJB - I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

John 5:42 KJB - But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

Exodus 33:5 KJB - For the LORD had said unto Moses, Say unto the children of Israel, Ye are a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of thee in a moment, and consume thee: therefore now put off thy ornaments from thee, that I may know what to do unto thee.​

You do not know it, but you are actually blaspheming God's very name an character by teaching what you teach. Think carefully about it, please.

Notice the contrast between Exodus 3:2, with Christ Jesus in the midst of the bush, and the bush was "not consumed", and then see Exodus 33:5, wherein the peoples did not have Christ Jesus abiding within, and were about to be totally "consumed".

Now, what does "consume" mean?

God's actions are not limited by my understanding of the word "consumed".

The KJV translates Strong's H3615 in the following manner: consume (57x), end (44x), finish (20x), fail (18x), accomplish (12x), done (9x), spend (8x), ended (7x), determined (4x), away (3x), fulfil (3x), fainteth (2x), destroy (2x), left (2x), waste (2x), miscellaneous (13x).

The KJV translates Strong's G1159 in the following manner: spend (3x), be at charges with (1x), consume (1x).


Mat 16:18 KJV - And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Sounds futuristic to me.

If my understanding of scripture is in error, I pray the Holy Spirit will convict me and enlighten me. I pray the same for you.

 

[One Baptism]

God's actions are not limited by my understanding of the word "consumed".

God is also not the author of confusion, but rather is the God of order, and understanding.

Did you not cite an example of a bush being "not consumed"?

What does "not consumed" mean?

Matthew 16:18 KJV ... Sounds futuristic to me.

Not sure why you cited Matthew 16:18 KJB, as it deals with an present ongoing truth, reality, that satan's kingdom cannot actually withstand the word of God, which is "the rock", even His commandments and Himself:

Matthew 7:24 KJB - Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Matthew 7:25 KJB - And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

Matthew 7:26 KJB - And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:​

If my understanding of scripture is in error, I pray the Holy Spirit will convict me and enlighten me. I pray the same for you.

I truly thank you for such prayer, as I do not want to be in error anymore than I was in the past [and in every place seek correction and humilty of heart to be so corrected always by God through His word], as I also for you, and all here, especially robycop3 and yeshua.

 

[BobRyan]

Add John Stott to the list.

"John Stott also believed in the concept of annihilationism, i.e., that the souls of the lost are eventually allowed to perish instead of burning throughout eternity in the lake of fire of a literal hell. Stott’s belief in annihilationism ran contrary to the beliefs of the Anglican Church and many other mainstream Christian denominations."
John Stott Annihilationism

that is true. thanks for bringing that up

 

[robycop3]

The text does not say anything about "eternal punishing" in those texts.

It says the "the smoke goes up" forever.
It says the "devil, the beast and the false prophet" tormented ...

The devil who is 'reduced to ashes' - and "will be no more" -- ceases to be forever.

IS 34:9-11(NASB)
Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.

(KVJ)
9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.



Rev 20
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.



Jude 7
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


2 Peter 2:6
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of

Ezek 28
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’



I was not trying to "Cancel verses" - I was "quoting verses" -- details matter.

Jude 7
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


2 Peter 2:6
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of




And remember, Jesus said going to hell is the SECOND DEATH. He said that BEFORE saying it is eternal. Second death - is a term calling it "death" not "eternal life in hell". No text says "eternal life in hell". "Eternal fire" in hell but not "eternal life in hell".

The point remains.

Isaiah 34
5 For My sword is satiated in heaven,
Behold it shall descend for judgment upon Edom
And upon the people whom I have devoted to destruction.
6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood,
It is sated with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 Wild oxen will also fall with them
And young bulls with strong ones;
Thus their land will be soaked with blood,
And their dust become greasy with fat.
8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.
12 Its nobles—there is no one there
Whom they may proclaim king—
And all its princes will be nothing.
13 Thorns will come up in its fortified towers,
Nettles and thistles in its fortified cities;
It will also be a haunt of jackals
And an abode of ostriches.
14 The desert creatures will meet with the wolves,
The hairy goat also will cry to its kind;

No use.

Rev. 14:11 & 20:10 still stand. They nolly your incorrect private interp of some other verses.

 

[BobRyan]

as Christ said in Matthew 10:28 "do not fear those who kill the body and are not able to kill the soul - but rather fear Him Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".

Rev 14 and Rev 20 say nothing about "eternal punishing" in those texts.

It says the "the smoke goes up" forever.
It says the "devil, the beast and the false prophet" tormented ...

The devil who is 'reduced to ashes' - and "will be no more" -- ceases to be forever.

IS 34:9-11(NASB)
Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.

(KVJ)
9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.



Rev 20
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.



Jude 7
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


2 Peter 2:6
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of

Ezek 28
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’

Jude 7
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


2 Peter 2:6
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of

And remember, Jesus said going to hell is the SECOND DEATH. He said that BEFORE saying it is eternal. Second death - is a term calling it "death" not "eternal life in hell". No text says "eternal life in hell". "Eternal fire" in hell but not "eternal life in hell".

The point remains.

Isaiah 34
5 For My sword is satiated in heaven,
Behold it shall descend for judgment upon Edom
And upon the people whom I have devoted to destruction.
6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood,
It is sated with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 Wild oxen will also fall with them
And young bulls with strong ones;
Thus their land will be soaked with blood,
And their dust become greasy with fat.
8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.
12 Its nobles—there is no one there
Whom they may proclaim king—
And all its princes will be nothing.
13 Thorns will come up in its fortified towers,
Nettles and thistles in its fortified cities;
It will also be a haunt of jackals
And an abode of ostriches.
14 The desert creatures will meet with the wolves,
The hairy goat also will cry to its kind;

No use.
Rev. 14:11 & 20:10 still stand. They nolly your incorrect private interp of some other verses.

All the Bible texts "still stand" which is the problem with a 2-verse snip and lots of inference to go in it as well

 

[robycop3]

You would be incorrect about the church coming into existence at Pentecost, for it existed long before that:

Acts 7:38 KJB - This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Acts 7:38 KJB - ουτος εστιν ο γενομενος εν τη εκκλησια εν τη ερημω μετα του αγγελου του λαλουντος αυτω εν τω ορει σινα και των πατερων ημων ος εδεξατο λογια ζωντα δουναι ημιν​

That is even speaking of Moses, and the body of Jesus Christ there, in the past. Moses is my brother, in Christ, as is Daniel, etc.

The example of the burning bush, is the perfect example of Christ Jesus in us [the redeemed] in type. It is not an example of how the wicked will be, since Christ Jesus is not in them:

Penitently redeemed:

John 14:20 KJB - At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

John 15:4 KJB Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Exodus 3:2 KJB - And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.​

Stubbornly wicked:

John 5:38 KJB - And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

John 8:37 KJB - I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.

John 5:42 KJB - But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

Exodus 33:5 KJB - For the LORD had said unto Moses, Say unto the children of Israel, Ye are a stiffnecked people: I will come up into the midst of thee in a moment, and consume thee: therefore now put off thy ornaments from thee, that I may know what to do unto thee.​

You do not know it, but you are actually blaspheming God's very name an character by teaching what you teach. Think carefully about it, please.

Notice the contrast between Exodus 3:2, with Christ Jesus in the midst of the bush, and the bush was "not consumed", and then see Exodus 33:5, wherein the peoples did not have Christ Jesus abiding within, and were about to be totally "consumed".

Now, what does "consume" mean?

Evidently, you have some trouble distinguishing between the physical body and the spiritual soul. When the nuke went off over Hiroshima, quite a few people were vaporized in an instant. Maybe you've seen the photo of a stone wall that an air raid warden was standing next to, with his shadow being the only physical trace of him left. I even vaporized his sword!

Now, were those people's SOULS destroyed as well?

NO, YOU are doing the blaspheming here by supporting a false doctrine. ( Nothing unusual for a KJVO, as they already have at least one false doctrine to start with!)

Virtually EVERY valid English Bible translation, old or ner, says the same thing in so many words in Rev. 20:10. ESPECIALLY IN THE "FOREVER AND EVER" portion! I believe all those translators' knowledge of Koine greek is/was greater than yours! Not one legitimate Bible version says, in that verse, that the punishment of those in hell is anything but eternal!

Here is the source of your false doctrine; your "Clear Word Bible", which you evidently believe over your KJV. (NOT "KJB"!)

Rev. 14:11, CWB - "The fire of God’s judgment will not rest until those who worship the sea beast and the animal and have the mark of its name are totally destroyed.”

Rev. 20:10, mCWB - "And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and consumed together with the sea beast, the land animal, and all the wicked. Their destruction will be forever and ever."

We see Mr. Blanco's false version has altered God's word from what it REALLY says!

Even the false Jehovah Witness "New World Translation" doesn't violate God's command to not alter His word here!

Rev. 20:10, New World Translation - "And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

Your horse feathers against God's word is totally WRONG!

 

[robycop3]

as Christ said in Matthew 10:28 "do not fear those who kill the body and are not able to kill the soul - but rather fear Him Him who is able to DESTROY BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell".

Rev 14 and Rev 20 say nothing about "eternal punishing" in those texts.

It says the "the smoke goes up" forever.
It says the "devil, the beast and the false prophet" tormented ...

The devil who is 'reduced to ashes' - and "will be no more" -- ceases to be forever.

IS 34:9-11(NASB)
Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.

(KVJ)
9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.



Rev 20
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.



Jude 7
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


2 Peter 2:6
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of

Ezek 28
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’

Jude 7
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


2 Peter 2:6
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of

And remember, Jesus said going to hell is the SECOND DEATH. He said that BEFORE saying it is eternal. Second death - is a term calling it "death" not "eternal life in hell". No text says "eternal life in hell". "Eternal fire" in hell but not "eternal life in hell".

The point remains.

Isaiah 34
5 For My sword is satiated in heaven,
Behold it shall descend for judgment upon Edom
And upon the people whom I have devoted to destruction.
6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood,
It is sated with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 Wild oxen will also fall with them
And young bulls with strong ones;
Thus their land will be soaked with blood,
And their dust become greasy with fat.
8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.
12 Its nobles—there is no one there
Whom they may proclaim king—
And all its princes will be nothing.
13 Thorns will come up in its fortified towers,
Nettles and thistles in its fortified cities;
It will also be a haunt of jackals
And an abode of ostriches.
14 The desert creatures will meet with the wolves,
The hairy goat also will cry to its kind;




All the Bible texts "still stand" which is the problem with a 2-verse snip and lots of inference to go in it as well

If God reduces Satan to ashes upon the earth, his SPIRIT lived on, while the ashes are long-gone.

And apparently, God hasn't fully punished Edom yet.

Your false "annihilation" doctrine is poppycock.

 

[robycop3]

You are a Baptist, right, why then not go back to your own heritage, and leave Roman doctrine behind?

Samuel Richardson (1633-1658)

Pastor, First Particular Baptist Church, of London wrote a discourse entitled :

"A Discourse on the Torments of Hell : The Foundations and Pillars therof discover'd, serch'd, shaken, and remov'd. With Infallible Proofs that there is not to be a punishment after this Life, for any to endure that shall never end" 1658 [see also Page 70 here, right hand top Column] - A Baptist Bibliography​

Modern era:

"... annihilationists come from and are part of any number of different denominations. ...

... E. Earle Ellis was a professor of theology at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary (Southern Baptist Convention) until he fell asleep. Similarly, Dale Moody taught at Southern Baptist Seminary (also SBC). I bet you never thought conservative Southern Baptists would hold this view! Claude Mariottini, Old Testament professor at Northern Baptist Seminary (American Baptist Convention), is also an annihilationist, 7 ..." - Don’t Be Afraid to Rethink Hell: Why Other Beliefs Needn’t Get In Your Way​

"... I was a few weeks into the research when I read an article by a renown Southern Baptist New Testament scholar named E. Earle Ellis titled “The New Testament Teaching on Hell.” In it, he argued fairly and thoroughly that the New Testament advocates for an annihilation view of hell. This caught me off guard; I didn’t know he was going to argue for this. I read the article very casually, thinking it was going to be yet another defense of the traditional view. After all, Ellis is Southern Baptist. He’s evangelical. And he didn’t front his view at the beginning. He simply looked at all the relevant passages, exegeted them (with the exegetical methods I was taught in seminary), and then concluded that hell would not last forever; that is, its inhabitants would not experience everlasting conscious torment. And Ellis argued this from the text. ..." - Is Annihilation an Evangelical Option?​

E. Earle Ellis ; New Testament Teaching on Hell - Rethinking Hell

General Baptists In his "Institutes of Ecclesiastical History" chancellor of the University of Gottingen, Johann L. von Mosheim records that the "General Baptists" where spread in large numbers over many of the provinces of England As one article of faith they held:

"that the soul, between death and the resurrection at the last day, has neither pleasure nor pain, but is in a state of insensibility." - [see Page 697] Mosheim's Institutes of Ecclesiastical History, Ancient and Modern​

i don't care what other Baptists think or thought. I only care what SCRIPTURE teaches. And Scripture teaches hell is FOR EVER, as is the punishment of the wicked that'll be in it.

 

[BobRyan]

If God reduces Satan to ashes upon the earth, his SPIRIT lived on, while the ashes are long-gone. .

More Bible - less creative writing (unless you also claim the wicked are now destroyed and we are all resurrected and in heaven)


Ezek 28
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’


Eph 2:6
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Ps 9:5-6

5 You have rebuked the nations, You have destroyed the wicked;
You have blotted out their name forever and ever.
6 The enemy has come to an end in perpetual ruins,
And You have uprooted the cities;
The very memory of them has perished.


Gen 17:5 “No longer shall your name be called Abram,
But your name shall be Abraham;
For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.

 

[robycop3]

More Bible - less creative writing (unless you also claim the wicked are now destroyed and we are all resurrected and in heaven)


Ezek 28
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’


Eph 2:6
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Ps 9:5-6

5 You have rebuked the nations, You have destroyed the wicked;
You have blotted out their name forever and ever.
6 The enemy has come to an end in perpetual ruins,
And You have uprooted the cities;
The very memory of them has perished.


Gen 17:5 “No longer shall your name be called Abram,
But your name shall be Abraham;
For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.

Your hippo won't fly.

Rev. 14:11 & 20:10 prove your private interps of certain Scriptures wrong.

 

[One Baptism]

... Here is the source of your false doctrine; your "Clear Word Bible", which you evidently believe over your KJV. (NOT "KJB"!)...

Consider Jud Lake's response to the allegations of the so-called 'CWpb' - http://www.ellenwhiteanswers.org/media/pdf/Clear-Word-Ratz.pdf

Please read section 2, minimally.

That is Jud Lake's take. Here is my own personal:

If anyone thinks, for even a second, that I obtain any doctrine or practice out of that self-inflicted wound of Jack Blanco's personal project, they have not read a single response I have given.

The co-called "Clear word [paraphrase] Bible" is one of the worst things that have been foisted upon the Seventh-day Adventist movement from select individuals, who without knowledge obviously could not forsee the terrible mockery that would [rightfully] ensue from it.

It began as a personal project of Jack Blanco as a "devotional paraphrase of the Bible expanded for clarity". It contains errors even from a Seventh-day Adventist perspective, and you can quote me on that. If he had wanted to make his own commentary, that was up to him, but the Seventh-day Adventists already have a commentary - https://www.watchmanministries.net/ekklesia/ellen-g-white/bible-commentary/#BCV1 or see https://ia600408.us.archive.org/23/items/SDABibleCommentary17GenesisRevelation/(SDA) Bible Commentary, 1-7 (Genesis - Revelation).pdf

It was a foolish endeavor, and "... The Clear Word is not officially endorsed by the Seventh-day Adventists church ...", though it is presently carried in various so-called Seventh-day Adventist publishing houses, like the Review and Herald, etc., which have long since been fulfilling this prophecy:

"... Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath, of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement. The leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice; but God being removed, they would place their dependence on human power, which, without God, is worthless. Their foundation would be built on the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure.

Who has authority to begin such a movement? We have our Bibles. We have our experience, attested to by the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit. We have a truth that admits of no compromise. Shall we not repudiate everything that is not in harmony with this truth? ..." - Letter 242, October 1903 - Lt 242, 1903 -- Ellen G. White Writings
​

Mark these words of sister White, for the false structure, in the place of the true, is indeed about to be swept away.

"... The work which the church has failed to do in a time of peace and prosperity she will have to do in a terrible crisis under most discouraging, forbidding circumstances. The warnings that worldly conformity has silenced or withheld must be given under the fiercest opposition from enemies of the faith. And at that time the superficial, conservative class, whose influence has steadily retarded the progress of the work, will renounce the faith and take their stand with its avowed enemies, toward whom their sympathies have long been tending. These apostates will then manifest the most bitter enmity, doing all in their power to oppress and malign their former brethren and to excite indignation against them. This day is just before us ..." - Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, p. 463.2 (Ellen G. White) - Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, Page 463 -- Ellen G. White Writings​

Wikipedia, cites:

"Free paraphrase: Paraphrases take great liberty with the biblical text and seek to convey the meaning of the author using contemporary phrases and metaphors. The best-known paraphrases are The Clear Word (Clear Word), The Living Bible (TLB), and The Message (Message). " - The Clear Word - Wikipedia​

The so-called 'Clear word' [of Jack Blanco] is, personally, a disgrace, and every copy should be publically requested by the printers to be returned for destruction and the people who promoted it, should publically repent and apologize for having thought any good would come of it. Jack Blanco will have to answer to God for it, and for the bloodied stain it has left upon this movement.

"... The Clear Word Bible is not produced, nor endorsed by the Seventh-day Adventist Church, but is the private enterprise of an individual. The Adventist Church does not use the Clear Word edition, which includes passages from Ellen G. White’s writings, for its worship services and Bible studies around the world ..." - The Clear Word - Wikipedia
​

I had my hands on one, once, when I first became Seventh-day Adventist, and when I opened it, and read a little, I turned away in utter disgust [knowing what the word of God, the KJB, actually says, rather than someone's personal thoughts about what God ought to have said], and immediately knew what others would think of the thing from an outside perspective.

We, as Seventh-day Adventists, have God's word, the "common version", in English, which is the King James Bible:

"... My brethren in the Lord, I am instructed to say that you must raise the standard of piety and truth and holiness higher, still higher. Compare scripture with scripture. Encourage the people to study their Bibles. Nearly all have the common version, and the words are so simple and plain that all who read may understand. Let the Scriptures be read freely in the family and in the pulpit. The men who wrote the books of the Bible, were inspired of God, and the words of Holy Writ are for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

We are to preach Christ and Him crucified, as the sinner’s only hope. ..." - Lt 188, 1906 -- Ellen G. White Writings​

 

[BobRyan]

More Bible - less creative writing (unless you also claim the wicked are now destroyed and we are all resurrected and in heaven)


Gen 17:5 “No longer shall your name be called Abram,
But your name shall be Abraham;
For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.

Rom 4:17 NKJV
17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;

Rom 4:17 KJV
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Ezek 28
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’

Eph 2:6
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Ps 9:5-6

5 You have rebuked the nations, You have destroyed the wicked;
You have blotted out their name forever and ever.
6 The enemy has come to an end in perpetual ruins,
And You have uprooted the cities;
The very memory of them has perished.

Your hippo won't fly.

On the contrary - "Bible details matter"

Rev. 14:11 & 20:10 do nothing to re-invent these texts.

The point remains

 

[One Baptism]

Evidently, you have some trouble distinguishing between the physical body and the spiritual soul. When the nuke went off over Hiroshima, quite a few people were vaporized in an instant. Maybe you've seen the photo of a stone wall that an air raid warden was standing next to, with his shadow being the only physical trace of him left. I even vaporized his sword!

Now, were those people's SOULS destroyed as well? ...

Not at all. I am able to distinguish between uses of words from OT to NT, by the contexts.

Genesis 2:7 KJB - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.​

Adam [thus all mankind in him] does not 'have' a soul, but rather when the breath of life of God was breathed into the dust, this then, became a "living soul", a 'living being', a 'living creature'.

Only JEHOVAH can ultimately uncreate that which He created, for He may resurrect or He can destroy and never resurrect.

A person, such as a man, being 'vaporized' by a human weapon, even a nuke, does not disclude JEHOVAH from resurrecting that person, since His power is greater than man's [obviously, I knew you knew this]. However, in the lake of fire, it is JEHOVAH who sends the fire down [and from beneath], so vaporizing the wicked, in various durations [torments/sufferings], and then never resurrects them, and since only God may do such a thing, thus, God truly destroys that 'living soul' in hellfire/lake of fire. See Matthew 10:28 KJB.

Matthew 10:28 KJB - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

The body is simply the flesh, or the dust of the earth, but the "[living] soul' is the entire living creature [dust + breath of life of God, so = or animating it], which includes all its gained memories, experience, character, etc. The Koine Greek for "soul" in Matthew 10:28, is simply ψυχην [psychen], or its root, psyche, and in many places in parallel fashion simply means 'life' [see Matthew 2:20, 6:25 (2), 10:39 (2), 16:25 (2), 20:28; Mark 3:4, 8:35 (2), 10:45; Luke 6:9, 9:24 (2), 12:22-23 (2), 14:26, 17:33 (2); John 10:11,15,17, 12:25 (2), 13:37-38 (2), 15:13; Acts 20:10,24, 27:22; Romans 16:3-4 (2); Philippians 2:30; 1 John 3:16; Revelation 8:9 KJB or lives Luke 9:56; Acts 15:26, 27:10; 1 John 3:16; Revelation 12:11 KJB]:

Matthew 2:20 KJB - Saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and go into the land of Israel: for they are dead which sought the young child's life.

Matthew 6:25 KJB - Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?

etc.​

Do we have a contradiction then, if we go with your understanding, for how could Herod's soldiers ever hope to destroy an 'immortal incorporeal essence' if psyche means what you say it does, rather than how the scripture [KJB] defines it line upon line?

 

[utilyan]

Philippians 1

23But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; 24yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.

So if I change my mind and not stick around in the flesh where do I go? Is it beyond reason to understand that Paul can depart from his flesh to be with Christ?

 

[One Baptism]

Philippians 1:23-24 ...

So if I change my mind and not stick around in the flesh where do I go? Is it beyond reason to understand that Paul can depart from his flesh to be with Christ?

Short answer - Absent From The Body | Free Book Library | Amazing Facts

It is a matter of the timing, the when.

The lengthier answer, to die [is to await in the grave, until the change come, after the wrath of God is poured out [the 7 last plagues]] and/or to live, was a matter of service and glory to God for Paul:

Philippians 1:20 KJB - According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

Philippians 1:21 KJB - For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.​

Thus to live, may not be what Paul wanted, but it was for Christ and His will that he [Paul] lived. To die, would indeed be gain for Paul and for Christ's Glory and Kingdom [as it would bring in many others to the faith by the martyrdom, even persons in Nero's own household were converted], for the next conscious moment to him, would be the 1st great resurrection, and being with Christ Jesus forever. So, he struggled between the two things. Sometimes living is the harder path, while death the easier, but it was not about what Paul wanted, but what Jesus wanted him to do.

Paul only wanted to glorify God, either by continuing to live [and winning more souls, testifying before kings, etc], or to do so by suffering of martydom [thus vindicating God's character]. Notice:

Philippians 1:24 KJB - Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Philippians 1:25 KJB - And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;​

It was better for the churches that Paul remained alive, teaching, preaching, healing, publishing.

Philippians 1:23,34, is in parallel language to Romans 8:22-23, and 2 Corinthians 5, see - Immortal Soul/Spirit Theology, Part Of The False Gospel, Practicers Of Necromancy

 

[robycop3]

Consider Jud Lake's response to the allegations of the so-called 'CWpb' - http://www.ellenwhiteanswers.org/media/pdf/Clear-Word-Ratz.pdf

Please read section 2, minimally.

That is Jud Lake's take. Here is my own personal:

If anyone thinks, for even a second, that I obtain any doctrine or practice out of that self-inflicted wound of Jack Blanco's personal project, they have not read a single response I have given.

The co-called "Clear word [paraphrase] Bible" is one of the worst things that have been foisted upon the Seventh-day Adventist movement from select individuals, who without knowledge obviously could not forsee the terrible mockery that would [rightfully] ensue from it.

It began as a personal project of Jack Blanco as a "devotional paraphrase of the Bible expanded for clarity". It contains errors even from a Seventh-day Adventist perspective, and you can quote me on that. If he had wanted to make his own commentary, that was up to him, but the Seventh-day Adventists already have a commentary - Bible Commentary Seventh-day Adventist-EGW Vol 1-8 (pdf-kindle-epub) or see https://ia600408.us.archive.org/23/items/SDABibleCommentary17GenesisRevelation/(SDA) Bible Commentary, 1-7 (Genesis - Revelation).pdf

It was a foolish endeavor, and "... The Clear Word is not officially endorsed by the Seventh-day Adventists church ...", though it is presently carried in various so-called Seventh-day Adventist publishing houses, like the Review and Herald, etc., which have long since been fulfilling this prophecy:

"... Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath, of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement. The leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice; but God being removed, they would place their dependence on human power, which, without God, is worthless. Their foundation would be built on the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure.

Who has authority to begin such a movement? We have our Bibles. We have our experience, attested to by the miraculous working of the Holy Spirit. We have a truth that admits of no compromise. Shall we not repudiate everything that is not in harmony with this truth? ..." - Letter 242, October 1903 - Lt 242, 1903 -- Ellen G. White Writings
​

Mark these words of sister White, for the false structure, in the place of the true, is indeed about to be swept away.

"... The work which the church has failed to do in a time of peace and prosperity she will have to do in a terrible crisis under most discouraging, forbidding circumstances. The warnings that worldly conformity has silenced or withheld must be given under the fiercest opposition from enemies of the faith. And at that time the superficial, conservative class, whose influence has steadily retarded the progress of the work, will renounce the faith and take their stand with its avowed enemies, toward whom their sympathies have long been tending. These apostates will then manifest the most bitter enmity, doing all in their power to oppress and malign their former brethren and to excite indignation against them. This day is just before us ..." - Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, p. 463.2 (Ellen G. White) - Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, Page 463 -- Ellen G. White Writings​

Wikipedia, cites:

"Free paraphrase: Paraphrases take great liberty with the biblical text and seek to convey the meaning of the author using contemporary phrases and metaphors. The best-known paraphrases are The Clear Word (Clear Word), The Living Bible (TLB), and The Message (Message). " - The Clear Word - Wikipedia​

The so-called 'Clear word' [of Jack Blanco] is, personally, a disgrace, and every copy should be publically requested by the printers to be returned for destruction and the people who promoted it, should publically repent and apologize for having thought any good would come of it. Jack Blanco will have to answer to God for it, and for the bloodied stain it has left upon this movement.

"... The Clear Word Bible is not produced, nor endorsed by the Seventh-day Adventist Church, but is the private enterprise of an individual. The Adventist Church does not use the Clear Word edition, which includes passages from Ellen G. White’s writings, for its worship services and Bible studies around the world ..." - The Clear Word - Wikipedia
​

I had my hands on one, once, when I first became Seventh-day Adventist, and when I opened it, and read a little, I turned away in utter disgust [knowing what the word of God, the KJB, actually says, rather than someone's personal thoughts about what God ought to have said], and immediately knew what others would think of the thing from an outside perspective.

We, as Seventh-day Adventists, have God's word, the "common version", in English, which is the King James Bible:

"... My brethren in the Lord, I am instructed to say that you must raise the standard of piety and truth and holiness higher, still higher. Compare scripture with scripture. Encourage the people to study their Bibles. Nearly all have the common version, and the words are so simple and plain that all who read may understand. Let the Scriptures be read freely in the family and in the pulpit. The men who wrote the books of the Bible, were inspired of God, and the words of Holy Writ are for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

We are to preach Christ and Him crucified, as the sinner’s only hope. ..." - Lt 188, 1906 -- Ellen G. White Writings​

Well, glad you see that the CWB is junk. But don't forget that another Seven-day-Adlibber is responsible for another false doctrine that also pollutes the Baptist denom: THE KJVO MYTH!

The current edition of this myth comes from SDA official Dr. ben Wilkinson's 1930 book, Our Authorized Bible Vindicated, which he wrote in response to a squabble within your cult. That hooey-filled book was legally heavily-plagiarized by one "J. J. ray' in 1955 and Baptist preacher Dr. D. O. Fuller in 1970. Their three boox are the "foundation stones" of the current KJVO myth.

That aside, even EGW got SOME things right, but so did Hitler! And in her day, there weren't any modern BVs readily available as there is now. (The British RV is a rather groddy version.)

But Revelation 14:11 and 20:10 state that punishment in hell for the wicked is everlasting. That's the way they're rendered in all common valid English Bible translations, including your KJV. (NOT "KJB"!)

So, unless you don't fully believe the KJV you quote from so much, you SHOULD believe punishment in hell will be FOR EVER, and NOT believe what PEOPLE have told you.

Who/what is right? EGW, or your KJV?

 

[robycop3]

More Bible - less creative writing (unless you also claim the wicked are now destroyed and we are all resurrected and in heaven)


Gen 17:5 “No longer shall your name be called Abram,
But your name shall be Abraham;
For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations.

Rom 4:17 NKJV
17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;

Rom 4:17 KJV
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Ezek 28
15 “You were blameless in your ways
From the day you were created
Until unrighteousness was found in you.
16 “By the abundance of your trade
You were internally filled with violence,
And you sinned;
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I cast you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 “By the multitude of your iniquities,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 “All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’

Eph 2:6
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Ps 9:5-6

5 You have rebuked the nations, You have destroyed the wicked;
You have blotted out their name forever and ever.
6 The enemy has come to an end in perpetual ruins,
And You have uprooted the cities;
The very memory of them has perished.



On the contrary - "Bible details matter"

Rev. 14:11 & 20:10 do nothing to re-invent these texts.

The point remains

Yes, Bible details DO matter. And that includes Rev. 14:11 & 20:10.