The Final Authority of Scripture

[DHK]

I told you that the Catholic Church does not do that stuff anymore.

Since when? Give me a time, date, reason.
The article that I posted was written April 20, 2016, and the journalist looking into the Catholic's misdeeds of the past and present reported that it was still going on to this very day. Why should I not believe her well-written and documented research and simply, by blind faith, believe you?
I have no reason to believe your faithful propaganda. You are simply a cheerleader for the RCC.

Yes, at one point what you are saying was true but all that was changed. The Church HAS repented and ASKED forgiveness from those wronged, it OFFERS counseling and has PAID compensation to the victims.

To some, perhaps. It tries to put on a good face, or rather save face, in the public's eye. But it continues to do what it always has done behind closed doors. You just don't read it as much. It is hard to teach an old dog new tricks.

But of course because of your hatred of the Catholic Church none of that matters, you continue to stick to a wrong assessment of the situation. Your continued repeating of such lies does not make your viewpoint correct or negates what actually happens.

I expose the truth. You call it hatred.
The truth of the matter is that you have a hatred of the real truth being presented here.
You have avoided the spiritual questions asked of you time and time again because you reject the truth. For example: Are you born again? How? When?
What does it mean to be born again?
When it comes to those questions there is complete silence.

If you continue to spread these false assertions after being told the truth, you will be bearing false witness against us, a serious violation of a command from God.

I am not bearing false witness. I bear witness to the truth. You are a cheerleader to that which you cannot verify. You don't know what goes on behind closed doors. What access do you have into the bedrooms of the homes of all the Catholic priests?

 

[The Biblicist]

None of that exonerates all your fellow Baptists who commit sexual crimes. We have owned up to our sins, perhaps you folks should do the same. We are not so much defending the honor of Rome by our defense here, but making sure the truth is told - about ourselves and you folks. You are liable to sinful behavior, as are we.

Don't have anything to repent about. We are independent churches. I don't see how you can call hiding something for decades until you are so openly shamed, that damage control had to kick in to save face. That is not repentance that is sorry for being caught. Life long penance for this crime is a joke.

 

[The Biblicist]

I'm just saying if your accuse Catholics back it up with actual proof.

Name one Baptist who lived in the year 1000ad. ACTUAL PROOF Zero. Baptist got made up by a Anglican priest who later dumped it.

Your church called us "Anabaptists" and then manufactured charges in order to use the secular arm against us.

Baptist Church Was Led By Sex Offender For Years
http://www.courant.com/news/connecticut/hc-new-haven-baptist-pastor-sex-offender-20160312-story.html

I can find 100s of stories like that I have I ever heard of a Baptist child predator? Nope. but apparently there is website dedicated.

I do not believe you. I don't even think you can fine 25 cases.

 

[Smyth]

None of that exonerates all your fellow Baptists who commit sexual crimes

Any Baptist preacher who sodomizes an underage boy should be hung by the neck until dead. Do I look like a Catholic who wants to enable and exonerate people of my denomination?

 

[Adonia]

Don't have anything to repent about. We are independent churches. I don't see how you can call hiding something for decades until you are so openly shamed, that damage control had to kick in to save face. That is not repentance that is sorry for being caught. Life long penance for this crime is a joke.

You are another one who does not believe in forgiveness or mercy and you are not the one who judges anything. Everyone who has ever sinned will appear before the Judgement seat of God and He will decide the final outcome of everything.

 

[Adonia]

Since when? Give me a time, date, reason.
The article that I posted was written April 20, 2016, and the journalist looking into the Catholic's misdeeds of the past and present reported that it was still going on to this very day. Why should I not believe her well-written and documented research and simply, by blind faith, believe you?
I have no reason to believe your faithful propaganda. You are simply a cheerleader for the RCC.

To some, perhaps. It tries to put on a good face, or rather save face, in the public's eye. But it continues to do what it always has done behind closed doors. You just don't read it as much. It is hard to teach an old dog new tricks.

I expose the truth. You call it hatred.
The truth of the matter is that you have a hatred of the real truth being presented here.
You have avoided the spiritual questions asked of you time and time again because you reject the truth. For example: Are you born again? How? When?
What does it mean to be born again?
When it comes to those questions there is complete silence.

I am not bearing false witness. I bear witness to the truth. You are a cheerleader to that which you cannot verify. You don't know what goes on behind closed doors. What access do you have into the bedrooms of the homes of all the Catholic priests?

You are not some Grand Poobah that requires any answers from me regarding my walk with Christ. Suffice it to say that I find Jesus Christ in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and try to live a Christlike life. Salvation is from Him, and I and every other orthodox Christian believes that, so take it from there.

You are correct, I do not have access to the bedrooms and homes of any Catholic clergy - and neither do you. I can only relate to you what the Catholic Church is doing regarding this issue and it is clear you are going to believe what you want to believe and I cannot change that.

I will repeat however, that you are indeed bearing false witness if you continue spreading those lies after you have been informed of the truth. One day you, like everyone else, will stand before the Judgement seat of God and will have to answer for the sins you commit in this life. I will pray for you.

 

[utilyan]

Any Baptist preacher who sodomizes an underage boy should be hung by the neck until dead. Do I look like a Catholic who wants to enable and exonerate people of my denomination?

Obviously anyone who enables is at a fault. We are called to forgive. There is nothing "normal" about raping anyone let alone children. Plenty of todays victims are tomorrows predators.

 

[DHK]

You are not some Grand Poobah that requires any answers from me regarding my walk with Christ. Suffice it to say that I find Jesus Christ in the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and try to live a Christlike life. Salvation is from Him, and I and every other orthodox Christian believes that, so take it from there.

There is no one on this board that has a walk with Christ, including you, if they are not born again. Since you don't seem to have a clue what it means to be born again, I would say that you don't have a walk with Christ. Christianity is not a religion as you make it out to be--a relationship with the RCC, but rather a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

One does not get to heaven by good works such as baptism or any kind of religious works.
Note carefully Jesus words here:

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
--It doesn't matter how many or what quality the works one does.
What mattered to Jesus is whether or not He knew them, and they knew Him. Knowing Jesus comes through the "new birth," being born again. That is the most important issue a person can face. Have you been born again?

You are correct, I do not have access to the bedrooms and homes of any Catholic clergy - and neither do you. I can only relate to you what the Catholic Church is doing regarding this issue and it is clear you are going to believe what you want to believe and I cannot change that.

What you post is primarily Catholic propaganda. Even Biblicist has pointed that out for you?
Tell me. If you were doing research on your genealogy, and found out that your great, great, great, great, great grandfather, who lived in the 18th century murdered someone but got away with it. And suppose you were able to find someone that was a descendant of the one that was murdered, would your apology "on behalf of your distant relative" mean anything to the person you found? Could you go to the courts, tell the police that you want to spend the rest of your life in prison--a life sentence (the very least for a murder) because your distant relative paid nothing. You are apologizing on "his behalf," so are you willing to pay the price on his behalf, do the repentance on his behalf, etc.
The so-called forgiveness of the Pope is meaningless. There is no justice carried out. To say "I am sorry you were mistreated without any justice is meaningless.

OTOH, I have documented for you what goes on in our churches.
I have documented what continues to happen in the RCC.
You reject both. You are in denial.

I will repeat however, that you are indeed bearing false witness if you continue spreading those lies after you have been informed of the truth. One day you, like everyone else, will stand before the Judgement seat of God and will have to answer for the sins you commit in this life. I will pray for you.

Again you are in denial.
Let me repeat again. Unless you have a relationship with Christ, that is, are born again, God does not hear a person's prayers. I appreciate the thought though.

 

[utilyan]

Your church called us "Anabaptists" and then manufactured charges in order to use the secular arm against us.





I do not believe you. I don't even think you can fine 25 cases.

Brother I can't even find 25 of "you" period.
33 million Baptists, probably good portion wouldn't even call themselves Baptists.

Anyone can call themselves Baptist. Look at Westboro Baptist. IBC churches....

I could start a Baptist church right now and there is nothing you can do to argue I was not otherwise.


http://stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm

The Anabaptist came on the scene with Luther thats 1500s.

Name one Baptist who lived in 1000AD.

All you got to do is name ONE PERSON.


Everyone in the Baptist church could be a predator murderer, ect. this has no bearing on the teaching.

 

[utilyan]

Why not? It is not "we," but rather "You" that should be Hindu.
Hinduism has much in common with Catholicism.

1. You both believe that it is water (i.e., baptism that washes away your sins.
2. You both pray to more than one god, and therefore both are polytheistic.
3. You both pray to the dead.
4. You both leave your offerings before the dead.
5. You both believe that salvation is by works.
6. You both have more than just one source of inspiration, or inspired source.

There are probably some other similarities that I have missed. In fact it seems you have more in common with the Hindus than with Christianity. But that is OK, because I have never considered Catholicism a Christian religion anyway.

Even here your comparison is invalid. You are simply posting the percentage of the various denominations currently residing in the prisons. That gives no evidence of anything except what you posted. It does not prove anything discussed in this thread.
When an immoral, pedophiliac and homosexual priest, having committed such crimes and is found guilty, he is not sent to jail. He is simply moved to another parish. His sins are covered by the parish, hidden by the clergy, even by the Pope himself in some cases. Thus the numbers are skewed in your example.
But the RCC is not a Christian religion anyway. Like you suggest, it should hold hands with the Hindus. Good thought.

Hindus...... So cute.
Your such a kidder DHK. lol.

Let me play your game.

Muslims have much in common with Independent Baptist.

1. Both believe in Sola Scriptura.
2. Both have contract salvation "all you have to do is accept their Lord"
3. Both use Fear or Terror to convert others
4. Both can't stand any religion that isn't theirs.
5. Both got no hierarchy just IMAMS where the center of authority lies with the pastor of the congregation.
6. Both came after the Catholics.


There are probably some other similarities that I have missed. In fact it seems you have more in common with the Muslims than with Christianity. But that is OK, because I have never considered Baptist to blow themselves up over religion.

 

[DHK]

Hindus...... So cute.
Your such a kidder DHK. lol.

I was serious concerning what I said. I listed six points of agreement with a pagan religion. Tell me where I am wrong.

Let me play your game.

Muslims have much in common with Independent Baptist.

No they don't. They don't worship the same God; they deny the trinity; they believe that Christ is only a prophet, and that Mohammed is the last and greatest prophet--greater than Christ himself. They also consider the RCC part of Christianity which is wrong.

1. Both believe in Sola Scriptura.

No they don't. They, like you, have other sources of "authority," such as the "Hadith," almost just as sacred as the Koran itself. It contains the writings of other sayings of Mohammed that others remembered and later wrote down, and also what others of Mohammed's time said about Mohammed. There is no sola scriptura in Islam.

2. Both have contract salvation "all you have to do is accept their Lord"

On the contrary, like the RCC, it is a religion of works. The RCC has seven sacraments.
Islam has five "pillars of the faith" that they must keep. If they are not kept one cannot enter into paradise. The only guarantee of paradise is martyrdom, quite contrary to "accepting Christ as Savior" (John 1:12).

3. Both use Fear or Terror to convert others

I agree that Islam does that, but we don't. You have laid down an ignorant false accusation.

4. Both can't stand any religion that isn't theirs.

Again that is true of Islam.
True Biblical Christianity operates out of love.
What are the two greatest commands? I trust you know what they are.

5. Both got no hierarchy just IMAMS where the center of authority lies with the pastor of the congregation.

It is the pagan RCC that has an hierarchy; not the Baptists. No Baptist church has an hierarchical form of government. Our form of government is congregational. Again you speak of your own ignorance.

6. Both came after the Catholics.

Cardinal Hosius dates the predecessors of the Baptists to the time of the apostles. Hosius of course was a Catholic.
Islam started in the seventh century.
The RCC originated with Constantine in the fourth century.

There are probably some other similarities that I have missed. In fact it seems you have more in common with the Muslims than with Christianity. But that is OK, because I have never considered Baptist to blow themselves up over religion.

What you missed is the admission of your own false allegations and the intestinal fortitude to look at the actual facts and admit that I was right. Examine the facts.

 

[utilyan]

1 Corinthians 11
2I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you.
The Jew, Jesus, the Apostles, nor the hearers of our Lord practiced Sola Scriptura. There is no "holding on to tradition" if you only needed sola scriptura.
Tradition.
One of the traditions Pharisees clergy would override Honor your Father and Mother by taking the money and counting it up to God rather then the parents.
Jesus Christ was very critical of traditions the Pharisees had. But rather then say well hold on what about our Rules and Law being Sola scriptura. He would complain about what was wrong with the tradition. He does this more then once.

If the RULE was no Driving, and someone drove a car to run over someone's beautiful lawn, Jesus Christ would complain about the guy driving over the Lawn rather then mention no driving.

 

[utilyan]

Sola Scriptura is definitely talked about in the bible.
Its right here:
2 Peter 3
16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Folks were certainly practicing SOLA SCRIPTURA to their own destruction.

 

[The Biblicist]

Brother I can't even find 25 of "you" period.
33 million Baptists, probably good portion wouldn't even call themselves Baptists.

That is correct, anyone can call themselves a "Baptist" and it wouldn't mean anything. It is the doctrine that defines not the name.

Anyone can call themselves Baptist. Look at Westboro Baptist. IBC churches....

I could start a Baptist church right now and there is nothing you can do to argue I was not otherwise.


http://stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm

I did not find any statistical data. I found allegations but where's the statistical data? I found most of it on the Southern Baptists, but where are the statistical data for Independent Baptists??? You and the Southern Baptists are like a corporation with a central headquarters. However, our independent Baptists don't have to account for others but ourselves.

The Anabaptist came on the scene with Luther thats 1500s.

Cardinal Hosius was a president of the council of trent and he claimed the Anabaptists go back 1200 years from his day.

The Anabaptists went under a variety of different names but Rome called them by one common trait and that is their refusal to accept infant baptism as baptism and so they baptized Catholics who were converted, because they were not baptized at all in their eyes, but in the eyes of Rome they called them "Anabaptists" or "rebaptizers." They were also called "Catabaptists" and "Sabians."

However, since Rome controlled the writing of church history from fourth century to the fifthteen century and heavily influence it to nineteenth century these Anabaptists were scandalized by Rome in order to bring them under the legal arm of the state. Hence, they are accused of all kind of bizzare things.

Everyone in the Baptist church could be a predator murderer, ect. this has no bearing on the teaching.

Yes, it would have a very strong bearing as doctrine is nothing if there is no practical application and if the practical application is characterized by unholiness then the denomination should be condemned and rejected by God loving people.

 

[The Biblicist]

You are another one who does not believe in forgiveness or mercy and you are not the one who judges anything. Everyone who has ever sinned will appear before the Judgement seat of God and He will decide the final outcome of everything.

Even Pope Francis admits the church has been covering it up for years. Tell me, if you had a child who had been doing wrong for a long time, and at times when it surfaced, he explained it away until finally there was no escape as he is caught with his hands in the cooky jar, and then he says I am so sorry, please forgive me, but goes on defending his past actions and when confronted with defending them he says, "Look I said I was sorry, don't you believe in forgiveness." Wouldn't the correct response be, "sorry? or Sorry you got caught?" Using repentance to remove the eye sore and then as a weapon against those who continue to point out the problem is not being dealt with properly (e.g. life time of penance? what a joke). The Bible does not support that kind of repentance or that kind of sorrow.

 

[utilyan]

Even Pope Francis admits the church has been covering it up for years. Tell me, if you had a child who had been doing wrong for a long time, and at times when it surfaced, he explained it away until finally there was no escape as he is caught with his hands in the cooky jar, and then he says I am so sorry, please forgive me, but goes on defending his past actions and when confronted with defending them he says, "Look I said I was sorry, don't you believe in forgiveness." Wouldn't the correct response be, "sorry? or Sorry you got caught?" Using repentance to remove the eye sore and then as a weapon against those who continue to point out the problem is not being dealt with properly (e.g. life time of penance? what a joke). The Bible does not support that kind of repentance or that kind of sorrow.

The Church doesn't equate to only clergy and none of which is above church teaching. If you can point to the part of the catechism that says Hey lets help child molesters, molest children then you got a case.

Corruption in high places isn't new, an apostle even betrayed Christ + he picked him.

In fact if everything is going peachy take a good look at the bible they not talking about you.


Matthew 10
24“A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master. 25“It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign the members of his household!

Catholic church, You even said it yourself. Your the best proof we are it. We get called diabolic all the time. No body calls Baptist devil's church.


And then Even the overt Devil worshippers. Who the devil worshippers attacking? Baptist Church? Nope. They need a Eucharist to perform a black mass. They need the real deal not crackers and juice.

 

[The Biblicist]

The Church doesn't equate to only clergy and none of which is above church teaching. If you can point to the part of the catechism that says Hey lets help child molesters, molest children then you got a case.

Corruption in high places isn't new, an apostle even betrayed Christ + he picked him.

In fact if everything is going peachy take a good look at the bible they not talking about you.


Matthew 10
24“A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master. 25“It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign the members of his household!

Catholic church, You even said it yourself. Your the best proof we are it. We get called diabolic all the time. No body calls Baptist devil's church.


And then Even the overt Devil worshippers. Who the devil worshippers attacking? Baptist Church? Nope. They need a Eucharist to perform a black mass. They need the real deal not crackers and juice.

We don't observe the Lord's Supper with "crackers and juice" but with unleavened bread and wine. However, the immorality within the leadership of Rome is nothing compared to the false doctrines taught by Rome. The primary false doctrine is their doctrine of justification, and yet that is just one of many false doctrines that characterize Rome. No wonder the Bible calls her the "Mother of harlots" and no wonder heaven will rejoice at her destruction (Rom. 17:5; 19:1-5).

 

[The Biblicist]

1 Corinthians 11
2I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you.
The Jew, Jesus, the Apostles, nor the hearers of our Lord practiced Sola Scriptura. There is no "holding on to tradition" if you only needed sola scriptura.
Tradition.
One of the traditions Pharisees clergy would override Honor your Father and Mother by taking the money and counting it up to God rather then the parents.
Jesus Christ was very critical of traditions the Pharisees had. But rather then say well hold on what about our Rules and Law being Sola scriptura. He would complain about what was wrong with the tradition. He does this more then once.

If the RULE was no Driving, and someone drove a car to run over someone's beautiful lawn, Jesus Christ would complain about the guy driving over the Lawn rather then mention no driving.

You don't seem to grasp the obvious. Oral teaching by the apostles preceded and was superceded by their written records. While the apostles were alive their oral testimony could be verified and such verification produced the written scriptures. The apostles were speaking to their contemporaries not to future generations of Christians yet unborn. This should be obvious to any reader as they are addressing churches they founded not churches founded by somebody in later generations. Of course any prophet is going to tell the very audience they are writing unto to remember and obey what they told them. But it is the written record, the scriptures that is final in authority as it is a "more sure word" than oral traditions for obvious reasons. It is the obvious reasons you don't seem to be able to grasp even though those obvious reasons are spelled out in Scripture in the highest examples. For example, Christ correcting oral traditions by scripture but NEVER correcting scripture by oral tradition (Mt. 16). For example, the Paul commending the Bereans for submitting apostolic oral teaching to scripture, not submitting scripture to oral teachings(Acts 17). For example, scriptures being set forth as completely sufficient for doctrine and practice rather than scripture and oral traditions (2 Tim. 3:16-17). Written completed Biblical canon set forth as final authority over what anyone may "speak" (Isa. 8:20) and "this word" is written scripture as that is the only thing that can be bound and sealed and it was bound and sealed among the Lord's disciples in the first century. You have unsuccessfully tried to first deny, then pervert and now ignore these examples because your soul is committed to Roman Catholicism OVER God, His Word and the truth, and that is obvious.

 

[The Biblicist]

Three quick questions:

1. Do you believe the Bible to be the inspired Word of God?
2. Do you believe the Bible is one and the same in authority as if God actually orally spoke to you?
3. Do you believe His Word should be final in authority or do you believe someone or something is more authoritative than God and His Word?

 

[Adonia]

h

There is no one on this board that has a walk with Christ, including you, if they are not born again. Since you don't seem to have a clue what it means to be born again, I would say that you don't have a walk with Christ. Christianity is not a religion as you make it out to be--a relationship with the RCC, but rather a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

One does not get to heaven by good works such as baptism or any kind of religious works.
Note carefully Jesus words here:

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
--It doesn't matter how many or what quality the works one does.
What mattered to Jesus is whether or not He knew them, and they knew Him. Knowing Jesus comes through the "new birth," being born again. That is the most important issue a person can face. Have you been born again?


What you post is primarily Catholic propaganda. Even Biblicist has pointed that out for you?
Tell me. If you were doing research on your genealogy, and found out that your great, great, great, great, great grandfather, who lived in the 18th century murdered someone but got away with it. And suppose you were able to find someone that was a descendant of the one that was murdered, would your apology "on behalf of your distant relative" mean anything to the person you found? Could you go to the courts, tell the police that you want to spend the rest of your life in prison--a life sentence (the very least for a murder) because your distant relative paid nothing. You are apologizing on "his behalf," so are you willing to pay the price on his behalf, do the repentance on his behalf, etc.
The so-called forgiveness of the Pope is meaningless. There is no justice carried out. To say "I am sorry you were mistreated without any justice is meaningless.

OTOH, I have documented for you what goes on in our churches.
I have documented what continues to happen in the RCC.
You reject both. You are in denial.


Again you are in denial.
Let me repeat again. Unless you have a relationship with Christ, that is, are born again, God does not hear a person's prayers. I appreciate the thought though.

Who are you to determine whose "walk with Christ" is valid or not? You "Born Agains" have said all Christians need a "personal" relationship with Christ. Well, I am different than you, so my relationship with Christ is unique, personal, and different in that sense. We are two different people who have had two different life experiences and we come to God in that context.

I have met some of these supposedly "Born Agains", where they run around saying "I saved, I'm saved" and then in a while it all fizzles out. Then what? My spiritual relationship during my whole life has been much more complex. That's just me and something you should respect as a fellow Christian. But no, a Mr. Know - It - All like you says EVERYONE has to do it your way, to feel the same way as you do, and that is not the reality of things regarding each individuals walk with Christ.

The fact is , you have no respect for anyone else's faith traditions and a proper discussion can only be had on the basis of mutual respect and you cannot even admit that we are Christians. You are not a Mr. Know - It- All on the subject of the Christian faith and what is the truth of it all.