The first Pope was a married Priest

[Walpole]

Priests are not allowed to marry after their ordination. You are the one telling lies here.

Do you know why?

The Apostles and their successors who were married were married PRIOR to being called to the office of Apostle. This establishes the Tradition: One can be married and then become a priest, but one does not become and priest and then get married.

You cannot cite one Scripture testifying to clergy getting married post ordination.

(Read my previous post about impediments to marriage.)

 

[church mouse guy]

Do you think the verse is stating Jesus is providing a loophole by which one can divorce and remarry? If so, it means if you want to divorce your spouse and remarry another, simply have them commit adultery and you are good to go.

Jesus said that Moses allowed divorce in cases of adultery, which you yourself quoted from Matthew.

 

[Walpole]

Jesus said that Moses allowed divorce in cases of adultery, which you yourself quoted from Matthew.

No he didn't. He said Moses permitted divorce because "of your hardness of heart", not because your spouse committed adultery.

Then what does Jesus say? "And I say unto you..."

Do you think Jesus then goes on to give a loophole by which one is permitted to divorce and remarry? This seems to be the Protestant position.

 

[church mouse guy]

It is talking about the hardness of heart in the adulterer although everyone is totally depraved. With all of the incurable STDs and AIDS, why would you want to be married to a person who could cause your death?

 

[Salty]

ATTN to everyone in this thread - PLEASE REFRAIN from calling someone a liar - PERIOD

AT this point I am dropping out of this thread to consecrate on moderating.


Salty
Moderator

 

[Walpole]

It is talking about the hardness of heart in the adulterer although everyone is totally depraved. With all of the incurable STDs and AIDS, why would you want to be married to a person who could cause your death?

It's as if you are not even reading the Scripture. Moses mentions NOTHING about adultery in Deuteronomy 24, which Jesus references in Matthew 19:8.

---> Deuteronomy 24 BSB


The fact remains, divorce and remarriage IS adultery. Jesus says so explicitly in the very next verse in Matthew 19:9, as well as in the other three Gospels.

There is no loophole.

 

[Walpole]

ATTN to everyone in this thread - PLEASE REFRAIN from calling someone a liar - PERIOD

AT this point I am dropping out of this thread to consecrate on moderating.


Salty
Moderator

I just scrolled through this ENTIRE thread and don't see one single post where anyone called someone a liar. Maybe you have your threads mixed up?

Best wishes to you.

 

[Walter]

Saying someone is perpetuating a lie (and I believe innocently) is not the same as calling that person a liar.

 

[Shoostie]

You cannot cite one Scripture testifying to clergy getting married post ordination.

"It's not in the Bible" is one of the weakest arguments I see Christians use. There's not enough discussion of clergy in the Bible to draw any conclusions from the absence of any clergy getting married.

If there were a reason for clergy not to get married, it would be a reason not to accept married men into the clergy. Conversely, if it's okay to let married men into the clergy, then there shouldn't be a reason for forbid clergy from getting married.

 

[church mouse guy]

1, You yourself quoted Matthew 19:8 (KJV) He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

2. Was Jesus wrong in Matthew 19:8?

3. The penalty for adultery was death.

4. Moses did allow for divorce. Deuteronomy 24:1 (KJV) When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give [it] in her hand, and send her out of his house.

 

[Walpole]

1, You yourself quoted Matthew 19:8 (KJV) He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

2. Was Jesus wrong in Matthew 19:8?

3. The penalty for adultery was death.

4. Moses did allow for divorce. Deuteronomy 24:1 (KJV) When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give [it] in her hand, and send her out of his house.

Let me help you understand the point I am making...

Jesus condemns divorce and remarriage explicitly in all four Gospels. He says anyone who divorces and remarries commits adultery.

"He said to them, 'Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.” - Matthew 19:8-9

"And he said to them, 'Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her, and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.'” - Mark 10:11-12

"Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery." - Luke 16:18

"...for you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true.” - John 4:18

 

[church mouse guy]

Was Jesus wrong when He said except for sexual immorality?

 

[robycop3]

Unfortunately, you're still batting 0.000...



St. Paul's first epistle to "Tim" is full of warnings about gnosticism. He even ends the first epistle stating so explicitly.

---> "O Timothy, guard the deposit entrusted to you. Avoid the irreverent babble and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge, for by professing it some have swerved from the faith." (1 Timothy 6:20-21)

This "knowledge" the Apostle is referring to = gnōsis ---> A direct reference to Gnosticism the early Church was encountering




The latter times began when God became man and entered into His creation...

---> "...but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world." (Hebrews 1:2)

---> "He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. (1 Peter 1:20-21)




Non-sequitur (No one is arguing marriage is forbidden.)

Strike 3.

MMRRPP ! ANOTHER FUNGO !

You skipped the whole point! If, TO GOD, it was wrong for gnostics, it was wrong for everyone.

And the RCC imitated the gnostics in that respect by forbidding its clergy to marry. You CANNOT escape the FACT that a celibacy requirement is MAN-MADE. Therefore, it's WRONG.

The whole RCC is chock-full of this, & other MAN-MADE rules & ordinances. You simply CANNOT avoid that FACT !

 

[robycop3]

Do you know why?

The Apostles and their successors who were married were married PRIOR to being called to the office of Apostle. This establishes the Tradition: One can be married and then become a priest, but one does not become and priest and then get married.

You cannot cite one Scripture testifying to clergy getting married post ordination.

(Read my previous post about impediments to marriage.)

And YOU can't cite one Scripture FORBIDDING ordained clergy from marrying. These attempts to defend a MAN-MADE doctrine are so silly!

The "tradition" was established by MEN, in direct opposition to JESUS' condemnation of MAN-MADE traditions of faith/worship.

 

[Adonia]

You CANNOT escape the FACT that a celibacy requirement is MAN-MADE. Therefore, it's WRONG.

It is a discipline which was decided under the "bind and Loose" doctrine - all perfectly legal. Who died and gave you the authority to be the sole interpreter of what God really wanted?

It is quite amazing how you ignore the Scriptures that do not fit your narrative. You also ignore how the Christian Church evolve through the many centuries, especially in the early years with all the "Fathers of the Church", the Bishops who got their authority directly from the Apostles.

Face it brother, the early Church was more "Catholic" than Baptist. Therefore, I maintain that it is the "Baptist" movement that decided to follow the cues of man, one man, therefore the Baptist movement is one the true "man-made" faith traditions.

 

[church mouse guy]

Let me help you understand the point I am making...

Jesus condemns divorce and remarriage explicitly in all four Gospels. He says anyone who divorces and remarries commits adultery.

"He said to them, 'Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.” - Matthew 19:8-9

"And he said to them, 'Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her, and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery.'” - Mark 10:11-12

"Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery." - Luke 16:18

"...for you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true.” - John 4:18

Was Jesus wrong when he said except for sexual immorality?

 

[robycop3]

It is a discipline which was decided under the "bind and Loose" doctrine - all perfectly legal. Who died and gave you the authority to be the sole interpreter of what God really wanted?

Yeah, all perfectly legal IN THE EYES OF A FEW MEN WHO WANTED CONTROL. And SCRIPTURE is my authority, not any man-made stuff.

It is quite amazing how you ignore the Scriptures that do not fit your narrative. You also ignore how the Christian Church evolve through the many centuries, especially in the early years with all the "Fathers of the Church", the Bishops who got their authority directly from the Apostles.

For the umpteenth time, SHOW US A SCRIPTURE THAT FORBIDS CLERGY TO MARRY !

Without such Scripture, your arguments for "celibacy for clergy" are hot air.

Face it brother, the early Church was more "Catholic" than Baptist. Therefore, I maintain that it is the "Baptist" movement that decided to follow the cues of man, one man, therefore the Baptist movement is one the true "man-made" faith traditions.

HORSE FEATHERS!

The RCC does such silly stuff as making Peter their 1st pope, when PAUL fit the office much-better. He established a church in Rome. He was unmarried. He ministered to many gentiles. He died in Rome.

Neither he nor Peter venerated Mary. And neither wrote any Scripture forbidding clergy to marry !

 

[Walpole]

MMRRPP ! ANOTHER FUNGO !

You skipped the whole point! If, TO GOD, it was wrong for gnostics, it was wrong for everyone.

And the RCC imitated the gnostics in that respect by forbidding its clergy to marry. You CANNOT escape the FACT that a celibacy requirement is MAN-MADE. Therefore, it's WRONG.

The whole RCC is chock-full of this, & other MAN-MADE rules & ordinances. You simply CANNOT avoid that FACT !

I'm throwing a no hitter here as you are STILL batting 0.000...

The gnostics forbade marriage. The Catholic Church does not forbid marriage. The Church teaches marriage is a sacrament! (Actually it's the only sacrament explicitly called a sacrament in Scripture.) It is promoted and the Catholic Church is the only institution anywhere on the planet protecting the sanctity of it.

As with the other poster, you are conflating forbidding with impediments. Using your argument and logic, you must also say your church forbids marriage because it refuses to marry you and your daughter.

 

[Walpole]

And YOU can't cite one Scripture FORBIDDING ordained clergy from marrying. These attempts to defend a MAN-MADE doctrine are so silly!

The "tradition" was established by MEN, in direct opposition to JESUS' condemnation of MAN-MADE traditions of faith/worship.

Non-sequitur. (No one is forbidden from getting married in the Catholic Church.)

---> Read this

 

[Walpole]

Was Jesus wrong when he said except for sexual immorality?

Of course not. Here is why the Protestants who think they found a loophole allowing them to divorce and remarry and thereby justify their perpetual state of adultery is demonstrably fallacious.

There are two problems with the Protestant loophole. The first is that it make Jesus contradict Himself, as He is explicit that divorce and remarriage is adultery in all four Gospels. Secondly, there is a reason why only St. Matthew quotes Jesus using this so-called allowance. The reason being is that St. Matthew's Gospel was written to a Jewish audience. (This is the key to understanding and destroys the Protestant loophole belief.)

The word St. Matthew uses for "sexual immorality" is porneia (πορνεία). This word does NOT mean adultery. It is better translated as fornicate. The word for adultery is μοιχεύω and it is used explicitly and exclusively for adultery both in St. Matthew's Gospel and throughout the New Testament. For example...

---> "He saith unto him, 'Which?' Jesus said, 'Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery (μοιχεύω), Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness..." (Mt. 19:18)

St. Paul also distinguishes μοιχεύω from πορνεία in his epistles both to the faithful at Corinth and Galatia...

---> "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators (πόρνος), nor idolaters, nor adulterers (μοιχός), nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind..." (1 Cor 6:9)

---> "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery (μοιχεία), fornication (πορνεία), uncleanness, lasciviousness..." (Gal 5:19)



So what is Jesus saying as recording by St. Matthew? We know that spouses, by definition, cannot fornicate, unless we are speaking of "spouses" as used in Jewish antiquity. In Jewish antiquity, a betrothal was considered a marriage contract, even though the parties were not yet officially married. Thus St. Matthew's reference to the law of Moses and Deuteronomy (v. 31), and the use of fornication (porneia) by our Blessed Lord describe this Jewish betrothal period. A "spouse" can only commit fornication in a betrothal period, which again is how the Jews contracted marriage in antiquity. This is explicitly demonstrated by St. Matthew in the story of St. Joseph and the Virgin Mary, who while not yet married, were betrothed and thereby "spouses". Thus Joseph was going to "divorce" Mary quietly. (cf. Mt 1:19)


Sorry Protestants, but there is no justifying adultery (divorce and remarriage), no matter how hard you try.