Reformed1689
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Not necessarily, in the view I am talking about people literally believe that Christ died for someone but still are not saved.
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The five points of Calvinism and Eternal Security.
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IF we hold to the PSt viewpoint, as think we both do, then the death of Jesus was on an individual basis for particular sinners.
37818
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Christ will either be one's condemning Judge or one's Savior. Romans 8:34; Romans 14:9.
All of us were born in the state of already being condemned....
37818
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John 3:18. 1 John 2:2. 1 John 5:19. Romans 8:34. 2 Corinthians 5:14-21.
We were all born as sinners and under the condemnation judgment of God!
37818
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Christ died for childeren. Mark 10:14-15. John 3:3-4.
We never said God will sin.
God is sovereign!
God can do anything!
But suppose out of curiosity, or experiment, He can't run a NON-Calvinist system.
So my simple question is. Could God do it "our way" if he wanted to?
Or is he limited to the real God --> Calvin Tradition?
He doesn't have the capacity to make a free will being as "theorized" by non Calvinist.
I believe that God freely chose to save babies, infants, and those mentally unable to understand to receive eternal life in Christ!
The only way God can save lost sinners and still be true to himself is the Calvinist way!
No its not... Its the CHRIST way!... Calvin never saved anyone!... Brother Glen
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
As Spurgeon stated, the Calvinist way is the Gospel way!No its not... Its the CHRIST way!... Calvin never saved anyone!... Brother Glen
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Do those who do not believe in the doctrine of election are they saved?... Brother Glen
Yes, its just they they misunderstand why and how God saved them!Do those who do not believe in the doctrine of election are they saved?... Brother Glen
Reynolds (whom I typically think rather highly of) simply needs to be more creative in his thinking...
It's quite absurdly easy to be both not at all Calvinist and simultaneously believe in Eternal Security.
I can think of at least 2 logical scenarios (neither of which I really believe) which could successfully maintain OSAS and not also be Calvinist at the same time.
One possibility would involve God's use of Middle Knowledge such that only those who would not fall away are ever truly saved...probably through the power of the sanctifying work of the Spirit. A Molinistic accounting would satisfy the requirement.
Another would be similar, but, it would simply hold that if one "TRULY" believes (whatever that would mean)… then they (probably through the sanctifying work of the Spirit) are not truly capable of falling away.
It would involve a view that while man is free to make a choice (at least initially) they are not then capable of making an ultimate choice to fall away.
Think of it like the statement:
"Man is bipedal"
A normal natural man has two legs...(like freedom of will)…
(real freedom, not the computer programming version modern Compatabilist Calvinists pooped out of their bum like only 30 years ago and now inexplicably pretend has been the model for the last 2,000 years as though we are idiots and don't know better).
That does not mean that there is therefore no such thing as an amputee...or a person who, while they might by nature have been bipedal, certain circumstances have obtained by which one of their legs was lost.
Such a thing might uphold genuine freedom of choice in Salvation, but also ensure OSAS inasmuch as Sanctification might involve only that much limitation of the will such that one could not fall away...
Indeed, such ideas have been suggested in the "beautific vision" of heaven etc.....to explain why there is no sin in heaven etc...
I hold to neither of these, because this is not an argument the Bible has any interest in at all, and the Bible is preposterously clear in what it actually teaches.....and it isn't Calvinism or Arminianism at all....nor is it an OSAS view...
But, nonetheless, one could easily not be a Calvinist and also be OSAS without compromising their precious Theological system at all.
Truth is....this isn't an argument the Biblical writers really were concerned with at all...if you cease thinking either Paul or Peter or Ezekiel or John were interested in answering (or had even considered) this question of "OSAS"...(they didn't).... then you can read them without turning your thought processes into mush...….
The ancients didn't abandon the gods....be it Yahweh or another....they couldn't conceive of OSAS...or falling away. If you worshipped Yahweh as manifested in the flesh you were saved. If you didn't you are damned.
It is still that way today.
If you worship the risen Christ of God you will be saved.
If you do not, you will die.
The Bible is so simple and clear on the topic.
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So God is not sovereign. Not free to choose any particular way. He is forced to be Calvinist. He couldn't decide to save all mankind by the snap of a finger if he wanted to. Out of his reach.
I'm not asking what you think he is doing now. I want to know if you believe him doing things differently is out of his limit and power.
I mean TECHNICALLY even the compatibilist acknowledges that God could have determined everyone to come most freely.
But God didn't want to. God loves to create people to burn em. Lil spiritual abortions.
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I have to hand it to you. Just when I thought I have read the most stupid, inane comment on the Baptist Board, you come along and prove me wrong. Spiritual abortions? Really? You should be ashamed of yourself.
Complain, complain, complain!... Now shall we see what the Bible says:
Daniel 4:34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:
4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
4:36 At the same time my reason returned unto me; and for the glory of my kingdom, mine honour and brightness returned unto me; and my counsellors and my lords sought unto me; and I was established in my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added unto me.
4:37 Now I Nebuchadnezzar praise and extol and honour the King of heaven, all whose works are truth, and his ways judgment: and those that walk in pride he is able to abase.
Gorship!... I believe God knows exactly what he's doing, even if you disagree!... Don't complain, just thank God Almighty and Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, you're not on the BURN list... Brother Glen
Many of us "compatiblists" also believe that the world we live in is also the best possible world for God's purposes, and that all of Creation is purposed for God's glory. That is an aspect that sometimes seems to be missed in these discussions. It appears sometimes man, rather than God, takes center stage in topics of this nature.
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