The Five Solas

[MB]

Considering that we're all going to be judged by our works at the Bema Seat, where does it say "grace and faith being the most important'?

Wrong only the lost are judged, All that can be seen on me is the righteousness of Christ. Or haven't you read about that?
MB

 

[MB]

Considering that we're all going to be judged by our works at the Judgment, where does it say "grace and faith being the most important'?

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Grace and faith are the most important because these are necessary for Salvation.
MB

 

[atpollard]

The tulip sir is not found in scripture when the context is taken as a whole of the truth. For instance. Election of your self.You cannot prove you are elected there for you do not know that you are. Scripture never says Gentiles are elected by God as is the Jews. What you have presented is nothing more than your own assumptions. Your own Philosophy.
MB

I was not asking you to change your mind about the truth of scripture and the Doctrines of Grace. I was only suggesting that the HISTORIC facts presented in those dates for people and events render your STATEMENT ...

You can't be a Calvinist with out Dear John Calvin.And the tulip

... factually false. There were "Calvinists" from the first use of the word "Calvinism" in 1570 until the first use of the acronym "TULIP" in 1905. That makes 335 years of Calvinists before "TULIP" was invented ... and the 5 points of the Doctrines of Grace that define what you call "Calvinism" were not written until 47 years after John Calvin died. So your claim about what is necessary for Calvinists to exist is factually incorrect.

 

[Yeshua1]

I was not asking you to change your mind about the truth of scripture and the Doctrines of Grace. I was only suggesting that the HISTORIC facts presented in those dates for people and events render your STATEMENT ...

... factually false. There were "Calvinists" from the first use of the word "Calvinism" in 1570 until the first use of the acronym "TULIP" in 1905. That makes 335 years of Calvinists before "TULIP" was invented ... and the 5 points of the Doctrines of Grace that define what you call "Calvinism" were not written until 47 years after John Calvin died. So your claim about what is necessary for Calvinists to exist is factually incorrect.

Did not Augustine and others develop some basic Tenets of "calvinism" way before Calvin, and is not much of its theology derived actually from Beza and others following after Calvin?

 

[kyredneck]

Wrong only the lost are judged,

Wrong:

but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; who will render to every man according to his works: Ro 2:5,6

We're ALL going to be judged by our works:

4 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Mt 25

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Mt 25

 

[atpollard]

Did not Augustine and others develop some basic Tenets of "calvinism" way before Calvin, and is not much of its theology derived actually from Beza and others following after Calvin?

Yes, but there is no unbroken path from Augustine forward. The reformers rediscovered the truth that Augustine presented in his works in the scriptures for themselves. Then the Reformers all influenced each other as more voices were added to the discussion of what Scripture said compared to what Church tradition had taught. Each generation clarified and refined what ad come before as new men found new ways to express the same core truth ... God saves sinners.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, but there is no unbroken path from Augustine forward. The reformers rediscovered the truth that Augustine presented in his works in the scriptures for themselves. Then the Reformers all influenced each other as more voices were added to the discussion of what Scripture said compared to what Church tradition had taught. Each generation clarified and refined what ad come before as new men found new ways to express the same core truth ... God saves sinners.

And there were 2 main tracks, the Reformed that became Dutch and Presbartarian, and the later Baptist one!

 

[atpollard]

Luther was wrong. Justification by faith only is not only unscriptural, it's ANTI-scriptural:

24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2

That is a serious claim.

What do you think James is talking about in James 2 and how does that reconcile with Ephesians 2?
How is a man justified before God?

If you seriously believe that Luther was wrong on Justification by faith alone and not by works, then you agree with the Catholic Church that opposed him that Faith alone could not save a man. They added the Sacraments as a necessary work of obedience for a man to be saved. What do you add as a required work of man to be saved?

 

[MB]

I was not asking you to change your mind about the truth of scripture and the Doctrines of Grace. I was only suggesting that the HISTORIC facts presented in those dates for people and events render your STATEMENT ...
[/QUOTE}

Did you get side tracked you didn't finish your statement?

... factually false. There were "Calvinists" from the first use of the word "Calvinism" in 1570 until the first use of the acronym "TULIP" in 1905. That makes 335 years of Calvinists before "TULIP" was invented ... and the 5 points of the Doctrines of Grace that define what you call "Calvinism" were not written until 47 years after John Calvin died. So your claim about what is necessary for Calvinists to exist is factually incorrect

.

The doctrines of grace were originally 6 instead of five some still hold to infant baptism.
And if tulip first appeared 47 years after John Calvin it was a lot earlier than 1905 Obviously you don't know what you are talking about. Beza died in 1605 not only this but they believed in it before it was ever called the tulip. It was originally conceived by Augustine.
I've read the institutes of Christianty.

 

[kyredneck]

That is a serious claim.

Not. You saying justification is by our faith alone when the scripture explicitly states justification is NOT by faith alone is a serious claim.

 

[MB]

And there were 2 main tracks, the Reformed that became Dutch and Presbartarian, and the later Baptist one!

You forgot about the Lutherans

 

[atpollard]

Not. You saying justification is by our faith alone when the scripture explicitly states justification is NOT by faith alone is a serious claim.

Your glib tongue and fancy footwork is impressive, you must have some Irish blood in your veins, yet "no true Scotsman" would ignore Ephesians 2 so completely for part of a single verse in James without even bothering to offer a defense of his position.

 

[atpollard]

You forgot about the Lutherans

Would that we all could forget the Lutherans!
Have you ever tried talking to a Lutheran about theology?
It is easier to nail Jello to the wall than get them to explain anything without it ending in an internal contradiction and the word "mystery".

 

[kyredneck]

Your glib tongue and fancy footwork is impressive,

...and your parroting an erroneous obsolete overreaction to the errors of Rome by the Reformers is not impressive. It's shallow, hasty, and shows how little of your own thoughts you've actually placed in your theology.

"no true Scotsman" would ignore Ephesians 2

It's your ignorance that shows here.

What Eph 2:8 says:

8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

What Eph 2:8 does NOT say:

8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith alone; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

 

[atpollard]

...and your parroting an erroneous obsolete overreaction to the errors of Rome by the Reformers is not impressive. It's shallow, hasty, and shows how little of your own thoughts you've actually placed in your theology.



It's your ignorance that shows here.

What Eph 2:8 says:

8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

What Eph 2:8 does NOT say:

8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith alone; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

OK, so Sola Fide is wrong because we are NOT justified by Faith without works ... because you say so ... and if I ask what works ARE required with our Faith, then I am “ignorant” and “erroneous”.

Thank you for clearing that up.
You have convinced me that you have nothing to say, but will not let that stop you from shouting your nothing at the top of your voice.

 

[Dave G]

I did not call it Vain this is your input. Just like you do scripture you add to it your philosophy.

Again MB, I don't use philosophy.
I believe the words on the page.

The idea is obvious by this very post that you add to things you shouldn't. It creates a false ideas.

Please correct me by the Scriptures, then, and show me where I'm adding things.

This last paragraph you know this is not true sir You can't be a Calvinist with out Dear John Calvin.And the tulip

I'm not a "Calvinist", MB.
I believe the Bible and it alone.

However, you're completely free to call me a liar if you wish.

 

[Dave G]

The tulip sir is not found in scripture when the context is taken as a whole of the truth.

That's where I found it, MB.
In Scripture.

For instance. Election of your self.You cannot prove you are elected there for you do not know that you are.

I agree.
Similarly, you cannot prove to me that you are born again and indwelt by the Holy Ghost...
I have to take your word for it.

But you're also missing something...
Did you see what I just did above?

I equated being indwelt with the Holy Spirit to being born again, because the Scriptures assign that title to those who are God's people.
Let's add "believed on Jesus Christ", "confesses Christ as Lord and Saviour" and a whole host of others...
Like being a saint and being one of God's elect.

In other words, born again = elect = saint = believes from the heart = lively stone = indwelt with the Holy Spirit = sealed until the day of redemption = "beloved of God" = has eternal life = Christ's sheep = given to the Son by the Father = "called out ones" = predestinated conformed to the image of His Son = justified by faith / by grace / by His blood = "called" = glorified = church = children of God = "of God" = fears the Lord.

Did you get all that, MB?

One cannot be a believer in Jesus Christ and not be one of His sheep or be one of God's elect.

 

[Dave G]

Scripture never says Gentiles are elected by God as is the Jews.

I realize that you're replying to atpollard,
but I'd like to take this occasion to make my own reply, since you keep bringing up this idea of believing Gentiles not being elect...
which, if true, also means that they are not justified, either, according to Romans 8:33,
and that Romans 8:1-39 does not apply to Gentile believers at all.

Or does it?

In my opinion, we've covered this many times, MB.
I can show you at least 3 passages where Gentiles are elect / chosen, and are addressed as such.

1) Ephesians 1:4-5 ( chosen = elect ), and they are addressed as Gentiles in Ephesians 3:1.
2) Romans 8:28-30 ( foreknown, predestinated, called, justified and glorified ), Romans 8:33, and they are addressed as Gentiles in Romans 11:13.
3) Titus, a Greek ( See Galatians 2:3 ) addressed by Paul according to the faith of God's elect.

So, the next time you state that no Gentile believer is elect, please don't say I didn't show you Scriptures, MB.

What you have presented is nothing more than your own assumptions. Your own Philosophy.

Shall we go over the Scriptures again?
I'll be more than happy to show you where I get my "assumptions", and you can tell me if I'm reading and understanding what the words on the page actually say.

Let's start with Acts of the Apostles 13:48.
As before, please tell me what this states, at face value, if it doesn't say what I think that it does:

" And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Question A:
How many believed Paul's preaching in the crowd?
Answer A:
As many as were ordained to eternal life.

Question B:
How many did not believe?
Answer B:
As many as were not ordained to eternal life.

If you disagree with my view of this passage,
then please offer something definitive and that takes into account every word on the page.

What do you see when you read it, if I may ask?

 

[kyredneck]

OK, so Sola Fide is wrong because we are NOT justified by Faith without works ... because you say so ...

Sola Fide is wrong because you're adding to the gospel something that the scripture contradicts. Forget what your manual or creed states, use your own thought process, your own common sense, to reason this out. Again, peruse all these 'justifications' from Romans alone:

13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: Ro 2
24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Ro 3
1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. Ro 5
33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God`s elect? It is God that justifieth; Ro 8

Not only are we justified by faith we're also justified by the blood of Christ, we're justified by our works, we're justified by the grace of God, it is God that justifies us!

So, then, using our God given right and ability for private judgment of the scriptures we can confidently conclude that it is NOT our faith alone that justifies us.

and if I ask what works ARE required with our Faith

The 'works' to which James is referring:

27 Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world. Ja 1
15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food,
16 and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit? Ja 2

...are the very same works by which we're all going to be judged in that day of judgement:

4 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;
36 naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Mt 25

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Mt 25

 

[MB]

...and your parroting an erroneous obsolete overreaction to the errors of Rome by the Reformers is not impressive. It's shallow, hasty, and shows how little of your own thoughts you've actually placed in your theology.



It's your ignorance that shows here.

What Eph 2:8 says:

8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

What Eph 2:8 does NOT say:

8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith alone; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Your right we are not saved by faith alone. We are saved by Jesus Christ, faith, and grace and none of it is alone.
MB