The Five Solas

[utilyan]

MY FAITH isn’t more important, but that is not the question that you asked or that I answered.

I just wanted to hear you say it.

 

[kyredneck]

And there are zero references that say "Trinity" too.

There are many references that state/directly imply "not by faith only". You people have "gone to seed" with justification by faith alone. And the thing that never ceases to amaze me is that none of you really really really believe it, you just like to parrot the Sola Mantra. Sounds nifty, I guess.

The references I gave gave faith and excluded works.

The references I gave showed conclusively that we're ALL going to be judged by our works. In fact, faith, let alone faith alone, is not even mentioned in any of the final judgment passages. Not one.

 

[atpollard]

There are many references that state/directly imply "not by faith only". You people have "gone to seed" with justification by faith alone. And the thing that never ceases to amaze me is that none of you really really really believe it, you just like to parrot the Sola Mantra. Sounds nifty, I guess.

I really believe that we are justified apart from any good works that we do, so that our justification is not based on our faith and good works, but on our faith alone (alone meaning "without works"). God most certainly did not save me because of the good that I had done; rather, God saved me in spite of the good that I had not done.

You choose to strain at semantic gnats, which is your right, but I cannot ignore the empirical camels of my personal salvation.

 

[atpollard]

The references I gave showed conclusively that we're ALL going to be judged by our works. In fact, faith, let alone faith alone, is not even mentioned in any of the final judgment passages. Not one.

John 3:18

 

[kyredneck]

Compare:

24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2

...with:

I really believe that we are justified apart from any good works that we do, so that our justification is not based on our faith and good works, but on our faith alone (alone meaning "without works").

You 'belief' is anti-scriptural. Maybe you agree with Luther that the book of James should not be included in the canon of scripture. No matter, many other passages disprove your anti-scriptural 'belief'.

 

[kyredneck]

John 3:18

What Jn 3:18 does not say:

He that has faith alone on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

[add]

I don't consider Jn 3:18 to be a 'final judgment' passage, fyi.

 

[37818]

There are many references that state/directly imply "not by faith only". You people have "gone to seed" with justification by faith alone. And the thing that never ceases to amaze me is that none of you really really really believe it, you just like to parrot the Sola Mantra. Sounds nifty, I guess.



The references I gave showed conclusively that we're ALL going to be judged by our works. In fact, faith, let alone faith alone, is not even mentioned in any of the final judgment passages. Not one.

And by what means does one's name remain in the book of life? Revelation 20:15, "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." Well?

 

[Dave G]

Actually Acts 13:48 was written like this as in the YLT.
Act 13:48 And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe—as many as were appointed to life age-during;
Things are some times lost in translation.
MB

I use the AV exclusively.
If you're saying that I cannot believe the words on the page as they are written in the AV, please recommend for me a Bible that I can believe every word on the pages.

Also, if I may ask, what exactly was lost in the translation, MB?
I confess to being a bit confused... because, from my perspective, I haven't actually gotten a clear answer from you on Acts of the Apostles 13:48.

Did only those that were ordained to eternal life believe, or not?
If you didn't see it before, I'll quote it from my prior post:

What do you see when you read it, if I may ask?

As many as were appointed to eternal life believed, period. What is it that you're imagining was lost in the translation?

Interesting point, IMO.
I agree with the underlined.

You wish that were true but it isn't

It isn't?
Then, what exactly does it say to you when you read it?

 

[Yeshua1]

There are many references that state/directly imply "not by faith only". You people have "gone to seed" with justification by faith alone. And the thing that never ceases to amaze me is that none of you really really really believe it, you just like to parrot the Sola Mantra. Sounds nifty, I guess.



The references I gave showed conclusively that we're ALL going to be judged by our works. In fact, faith, let alone faith alone, is not even mentioned in any of the final judgment passages. Not one.

the redeemed judged by their works for purpose of granting/loss of ternal rewards, NOTHING to do with salvation!

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you then deny the imputed righteousness of those of us now in Christ?

 

[utilyan]

Do you then deny the imputed righteousness of those of us now in Christ?

You deny the imputed righteousness of billions all the time. And yet expect a complete stranger to include you to the exclusivity of the righteous?

 

[Yeshua1]

You deny the imputed righteousness of billions all the time. And yet expect a complete stranger to include you to the exclusivity of the righteous?

All of those now found in Jesus have been Imputed His very righteousness, as now been saved!

 

[atpollard]

Compare:

24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Ja 2

...with:

You 'belief' is anti-scriptural. Maybe you agree with Luther that the book of James should not be included in the canon of scripture. No matter, many other passages disprove your anti-scriptural 'belief'.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. [Ephesians 2:8-9 ]

The proof of the pudding is in the tasting and the proof of the scripture is in the CONTEXT:

1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. [Ephesians 2:1-10 NASB]

[James 2:18-26 NASB] 18 But someone may [well] say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without [the] spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.​

Which one, James or Paul, teach a works based justification? ... NEITHER!

You claimed that no one really believes what we say, and when I affirm that I am not a hypocrite but do believe what I claim, you turn that into an opportunity to attack me as being anti-scriptural. Your behavior is not that of a Christian towards a fellow child of God.

non potest arbor bona fructus malos facere neque arbor mala fructus bonos facere

Finis.

 

[MB]

I use the AV exclusively.
If you're saying that I cannot believe the words on the page as they are written in the AV, please recommend for me a Bible that I can believe every word on the pages.

Also, if I may ask, what exactly was lost in the translation, MB?
I confess to being a bit confused... because, from my perspective, I haven't actually gotten a clear answer from you on Acts of the Apostles 13:48.

Did only those that were ordained to eternal life believe, or not?
If you didn't see it before, I'll quote it from my prior post:


Interesting point, IMO.
I agree with the underlined.

It isn't?
Then, what exactly does it say to you when you read it?

The youngs translation is a literal word for word not leaving anything out.
It says acts 13;48 just as original manuscripts said. It says
Act 13:48 And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe—as many as were appointed to life age-during;
You add English gramar to it and you come out with is backwards as you have it in the AV Belief always comes first nothing ever happens until we believe.
MB

 

[Dave G]

The youngs translation is a literal word for word not leaving anything out.
It says acts 13;48 just as original manuscripts said. It says
Act 13:48 And the nations hearing were glad, and were glorifying the word of the Lord, and did believe—as many as were appointed to life age-during;

It says it the same as the Authorized does.

" and did believe...as many as were appointed to life age-during."

Who believed?
As many as were appointed.

Appointment came first, then belief.

You add English gramar to it and you come out with is backwards as you have it in the AV

I didn't translate the Authorized...
Between 46 and 54 men from England, many of them fluent in both Koine Greek and ancient Hebrew, spent almost 7 years doing it.

In addition, almost every English translation, as well as almost every translation in other languages, has the word order precisely as I've shown you...
Appointment / ordination comes first, and then belief.
For example:

" Y los Gentiles oyendo esto, fueron gozosos, y glorificaban la palabra del Señor: y creyeron todos los que estaban ordenados para vida eterna." ( Acts 13:48, Reina Valera 1602 ).<----- " and believed all who were ordained for eternal life".

For support, I can show you at least 5 passages where God does something that is then followed by belief, just as Acts of the Apostles 13:48 clearly states.
As in other threads, if you don't want to believe the words as they are laid out on the page, then don't.

Our disagreement isn't with the "interpretation" sir, it's with the words of Scripture...

Simply stated, to me, you don't believe them as they are laid out on the page,
whereas I am believing them exactly as they occur.

 

[Dave G]

Belief always comes first nothing ever happens until we believe.

I understand where you're coming from...
To you, these passages must show belief happening first, and then God doing something:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." ( John 5:24 ). <----- Here we see that the person who believes already has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation...they are already passed from death unto life when they believe.

" Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." ( John 6:29 ). <----- Here I see that it is a work of God for someone to believe on Christ...not our work as men.

" All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." ( John 6:37 ) <------ Here I see that the Father gives a person to the Son, and that person then comes to ( believes on ) Him.

" No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." ( John 6:44 ). <----- No man can come to ( believe on ) Christ except the Father draw them.

" But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." ( John 6:64-65 ). <------ No man can come to Christ except it were given to that person by the Father to do so. This one alone should convince you, yet it seems to simply bounce off, MB.

" He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:47 ). <------Only someone that is "of God" can hear and believe His words, MB. This one doesn't make you sit up and take notice? It does me.

" But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" ( John 10:26-27 ). <-------- People do not believe because they are not Christ's sheep. Only Christ's sheep hear ( believe ) His voice and follow Him. Therefore, one has to be a "sheep" in order to hear His voice and to follow Him.

"as thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." ( John 17:2 ). <------ Christ only gives eternal life to those the Father has given to Him. See John 6:37-47.

So according to these, which comes first...
God doing something and we as men then responding, or the other way around?

I see God's work coming first,
with our response as unworthy sinners then taking place.

 

[Dave G]

@MB:

Those are a sampling of passages just in the book of John, MB.
I could show you some from the epistles and other places if that would help:
Psalms 65:4
Philippians 1:29
2 Thessalonians 2:13.
Ephesians 1:3-13.

Are you absolutely sure that, according to the Scriptures that we do something first, and then God does something...
Making our salvation completely dependent upon an act that we perform, as if God is waiting on mankind to make a decision before He can even save someone?
I mean, I really have to ask, since that isn't what they clearly state.

In fact, Scripture alone ( "sola" ) has it the other way around.

With that said,
Should we then re-write those Scriptures so that they fit how we see them?
I know that I wouldn't, as it is a very serious matter to tamper with God's words, MB.

I conclude my statements with this:

"Sola Scriptura" is defined by the belief and trust of the Scriptures and them alone...
Which also includes how the words occur within the body of the text in our own language...not how we'd like to have it laid out for us.

The words change our thinking...
Our thinking doesn't change the words.

As always, may He bless you with much wisdom and patience as you study His words.

 

[MB]

@MB:

Those are a sampling of passages just in the book of John, MB.
I could show you some from the epistles and other places if that would help:
Psalms 65:4
Philippians 1:29
2 Thessalonians 2:13.
Ephesians 1:3-13.

Are you absolutely sure that, according to the Scriptures that we do something first, and then God does something...
Making our salvation completely dependent upon an act that we perform, as if God is waiting on mankind to make a decision before He can even save someone?
I mean, I really have to ask, since that isn't what they clearly state.

In fact, Scripture alone ( "sola" ) has it the other way around.

With that said,
Should we then re-write those Scriptures so that they fit how we see them?
I know that I wouldn't, as it is a very serious matter to tamper with God's words, MB.

I conclude my statements with this:

"Sola Scriptura" is defined by the belief and trust of the Scriptures and them alone...
Which also includes how the words occur within the body of the text in our own language...not how we'd like to have it laid out for us.

The words change our thinking...
Our thinking doesn't change the words.

As always, may He bless you with much wisdom and patience as you study His words.

What do you know a KJV only Calvinist who just quoted verses that back me up on belief comes first.
Belief comes first every time even in acts 13:48. Yet what this guy is saying is that the YLT is wrong because it is a literal translation. With all those verses that say belief comes first how do you explain Act 13:48. According to dave he believes in contradictions as well. He has to, to remain holier than thou. I suppose he will come forward and make claims that he is right all along as far as Calvinist are concerned He always quotes Jn. 6:44 which I do not disagree with but notice men have to come to Him first. You can't come to God unless you believe. Belief is what makes man come to Christ..Think about it Dave. It's simple Dave men who come to Christ already Believe because they are comming for Salvation. Why else would they come to Christ.
The rich young ruler believed Jesus could give Him eternal life this is why He came. He was drawn and still wasn't saved.
MB

 

[kyredneck]

non potest arbor bona fructus malos facere neque arbor mala fructus bonos facere

Finis.

WHOA! Impressive! You can C & P Latin!

Quaeritur: Quid est differentia justificetur et salvetur

 

[kyredneck]

Which one, James or Paul, teach a works based justification?

XIII iustificavit ... factores legis iustificabuntur Rom ... II

XX ... per opera legis non justificabitur omnis caro ejus Ro ... III

'Senex dictus, quod Paulus ad se et dicit Scriptura contradicit?