The flimsy foundation of ME

[Lacy Evans]

Not by works of righteousness we have done........

It's as clear as day.

This verse which you partially quoted:

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

is talking about Salvation in eternity. I don't know if I can make it any clearer that I believe that Salvation in eternity (free gift upon believing) and entrence into the Kingdom are two different events.

The 1st is conditioned solely upon my believing upon Christ (as stated before). The second is shown clearly in scripture to be conditioned upon what I do after I am saved!

So don't show me a free gift verse to refute the theology of winning the "prize". Because both are in the Bible. A gift is a gift and a prize is a prize. I believe in both.

 

[Lazarus]

will not have been done directly by us, but in us and through our members as a result of us dying to ourselves

are indeed credited to our account as if we did them ourselves.

What?

This is about the biggest load of double talk I've heard in a long time. I'm dizzy.

Every Christian will stand before the judgement seat of Christ. The Bible says even if all of thier works (those things done after salvation) are worthless and burned up, the person will still be saved and enjoy eternal life. One salvation and One eternal life, forever!!!

I again refer you to:
http://www.calvinistcorner.com/predestination.htm

 

[Lacy Evans]

1. I know of no well-bred Calvinist who teaches what you outlined.

I didn't outline anything really. I was just heading off the argument that one might try in saying that someone doing those sins is not "really saved".

2. Christians ought to bear fruit and bring glory to God (John 15:7, 8).

Of course! But not all will and what of those who refuse? Just write them off as unsaved? That is much less messy, I suppose but the Bible's answers are a little more complex.

3. If nothing else, experience teaches us that we must honor God in our everyday life or our conscience will not be kind to us.

Absolutely! Or else what, though??!! The scripture is not silent!

4. As a Calvinist, I take to heart the warnings of Scripture; it's part of making God's calling and choosing of us certain.

OK? What about this one?

Hebrews 12:15-17
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Esau retained his sonship and all the full blessings of any other son. But he lost something that should have been dear to him, because he was profane and didn't repent. It is the same warning as the others I posted earlier.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Every Christian will stand before the judgement seat of Christ. The Bible says even if all of thier works (those things done after salvation) are worthless and burned up, the person will still be saved and enjoy eternal life. One salvation and One eternal life, forever!!!

We absolutely agree. We just happen to be able to leave in the part about "yet so as by fire".

Lacy

 

[J. Jump]

The Bible says even if all of thier works (those things done after salvation) are worthless and burned up, the person will still be saved and enjoy eternal life.

EXACTLY! But now we aren't talking about the same subject and that is the problem discussing these matters with folks like yourself, because you wonder from everlasting life to the kingdom of the heavens and back and forth as if they were the same thing.

Of course that person is saved (possess everlasting life). No one has ever denied that. However "eternity" is not the next step for us. There is an age of 1000 years that will take place between this age and the endless ages (eternity) and that is the coming kingdom of Christ.

And possession of everlasting life DOES NOT guarantee you a place of rulership in the coming kingdom of the Lord of lords and the King of kings. Those spots are only for the faithful, obedient overcomers. If you are not faithful, obedient and overcoming you WILL NOT rule and reign with Christ.

And that is what will be determined at the JSOC. And if ALL your works burn then you were not faithful, obedient and overcoming while you were here! And you will NOT win the prize. You will be disqualified. But that has NOTHING to do with your possession of everlasting life. That is irrevocable!

 

[TCGreek]

Esau retained his sonship and all the full blessings of any other son. But he lost something that should have been dear to him, because he was profane and didn't repent. It is the same warning as the others I posted earlier.

1. We are only going to get into a Calvinistic and non-Calvinistic discussion and interpret Scripture through those grids.

2. Like I said, I do not set out to resolve every difficulties in Scripture. Some difficulties can be resolved through time and disciplined study. Other's, me personally, I've learned to live with them.

3. Others may choose another approach, and I respect them for that.

4. Are there tensions in Scripture? Absolutely! There're texts that seem to teach that a believer can lose her salvation and then there're texts that teach that she cannot.

 

[Lazarus]

you wonder from everlasting life to the kingdom of the heavens and back

Because they are both the same. The Church, The Bride of Christ will return with Christ at his Second Coming. The Church will rule and reign with Him for that 1000 years. The day a believer dies, he begins his Eternal, Everlasting Life.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Because they are both the same. The Church, The Bride of Christ will return with Christ at his Second Coming. The Church will rule and reign with Him for that 1000 years. The day a believer dies, he begins his Eternal, Everlasting Life.

If they are the same, (which they are most certainly not) then the warnings to believers that they might forfeit the Kingdom can ONLY be interpreted as a loss of salvation. This is at least an honest viewpoint (Held by several here like Deafposttrib)

You can only have it both ways if you put all the warnings on "ignore".

lacy

 

[standingfirminChrist]

And herein lies the problem. You are basing your answer on John's lack of works for four years in his life, but totally ignoring six years of faithfulness.

See this shows the folly in following this church tradition. If you don't like someone's actions instead of sharing the Truth of Scripture with them you merely write them off as unsaved.

What you are saying is that unless you produce the right kind of works then you aren't saved. That is simply a backloaded works-based plan of salvation.

Eternal salvation is based on your faith in Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, Who died on your behalf a sinner. If you believe that you are saved. Everlasting life has just become a permanent possession the very moment you believed and it will NEVER be revoked for ANY reason.

A person may or may not live a sanctified life after that moment, but if they don't that in no wise cast a doubt as to whether they believed Jesus died for them or not.


Call it deep seated if you want, but all it takes is belief. Period. End of conversation according to Scripture. If you believe you are saved.

The Bible doesn't save if you believed you will do x,y,z for the rest of your life. There is simply no Biblical grounds for that church tradition.


But what you can't doubt is whether or not these people believe whether they say a prayer or not. What is happening here is that people are seeing a problem with the "sinner's prayer," (and I'm not a sinner's prayer guy myself), but instead of returning to the Biblical center those opposed to the sinner's prayer are swinging in almost the opposite direction and saying if you said a prayer you aren't saved or you probably aren't saved.

That is causing terrible mistakes to be made in regard to eternal salvation.

If the person believes they believe whether they said the right words or not.


JSOC - Judgment Seat of Christ But as per your answer to No. 1 you don't even think John will be there despite him being saved at the age of 12 and living a faithful life until he was 18.

Lazarus I will leave you with this encouragement. I would at least test the church tradition that you have been sold and see if it stands up to the test of Scripture and I think you might be surprised at how much has to fall by the way side. Trust me it's a tough thing to do, but it is well worth it!

Your illustration of John, who in the last four years of his life drank and committed fornication and was killed while drunk shows an unsaved person dying in his sins. The Word of God says

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21)

We also know that the tree is known by its fruit, and no good tree will bring forth evil fruit.

John may have made a profession with his lips as a young lad, but the profession was not a heart profession. John was lost and his true nature was shown the last 4 years of his life.

 

[J. Jump]

Because they are both the same.

No they are not the same and that brings us full circle. One requires faith plus nothing and one requires faith and obedience and overcoming (works).

There is no contextual way they can be the same thing. If they are then you are placing all kinds of contradictions on Scripture.

 

[Lazarus]

The New Testament mentions "Kingdom of Heaven" 32 times. This is not the millennial kingdom you keep mentioning. The New Testament mentions "millennial kingdom" 0 times.

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:

You keep trying to place the Kingdom of Heaven on earth where it clearly doesn't belong. The kingdom Jesus spoke about is the "Kingdom of Heaven"

Believers cannot forfeit eternal life in heaven because:

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[J. Jump]

Your illustration of John, who in the last four years of his life drank and committed fornication and was killed while drunk shows an unsaved person dying in his sins.

No it doesn't. It merely shows your biased, unScriptural opinion of John. You are not God and you can not know whether he is saved or not. Only God knows that truth and you are NOT God!

Even the most adamant critic of this doctrine disagrees with you. That ought to tell you something of the fallacy of your argument.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

I've taken the liberty to bold the phrase that you people keep ignoring. Inheriting the kingdom is NOT the same thing as receiving everlasting life.

A gift is not an inheritance. The inheritance is a reward. A reward is something that is earned therefore they can not contextually be speaking of the same thing.

 

[J. Jump]

The New Testament mentions "Kingdom of Heaven" 32 times. This is not the millennial kingdom you keep mentioning. The New Testament mentions "millennial kingdom" 0 times.

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:

You keep trying to place the Kingdom of Heaven on earth where it clearly doesn't belong. The kingdom Jesus spoke about is the "Kingdom of Heaven"

Believers cannot forfeit eternal life in heaven because:

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

My kingdom is not of this world means not of this world system or the arrangment of this world. It has nothing to do with physical location.

Jesus Christ WILL return and He WILL rule over this PHYSICAL earth. You can take that to the bank! He tells us that we can have a place in His coming kingdom if we will do some things. Now we can either believe that or we can believe the lie of church tradition that says all saved people regardless of how they live their life will rule and reign with Christ.

Which when you boil it down means you can serve the god of this world and enjoy all this life has to offer and still rule and reign with the King of kings and the Lord of lords in the coming age. But unfortunatley Scritpure says you can't have your cake and eat it to. You have to make a choice. You can either serve God and hate the world or you can serve the world and hate God. Whichever you choose has consequences both now and in your future.

As for your final Scripture I guess you will be one of the same ones that says a person can't stop believing as well huh?

 

[Lazarus]

Why are you so bent on salvation by works. The Bible doesn't say it so it's only their by your own imagination.

The inheritance is a reward

An inheritance is a reward?

from Wikipedia,

Inheritance is the practice of passing on property, titles, debts, and obligations upon the death of an individual. It has long played an extremely important role in human societies.

Please don't reward me with your inheritance. I'd hate to think I had to work to inherite your debts and oblitations.

 

[Lazarus]

J Jump

Well, it's getting late. It's been fun but I've got to go for now. Good luck working your way to the "Kingdom"

Blessings

 

[Lacy Evans]

Why are you so bent on salvation by works. The Bible doesn't say it so it's only their by your own imagination.



An inheritance is a reward?

from Wikipedia,

Inheritance is the practice of passing on property, titles, debts, and obligations upon the death of an individual. It has long played an extremely important role in human societies.

Please don't reward me with your inheritance. I'd hate to think I had to work to inherite your debts and oblitations.

An Inheritance is a reward? (You mean like you have to do something to get it?)

from King James-ipedia

KJV Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

KJV Matthew 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

KJV Mark 10:17-19
17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

KJV 1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

KJV 1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

KJV 1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

KJV Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

KJV Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

KJV Colossians 3:23-25
23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

KJV Hebrews 6:12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

KJV Hebrews 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

KJV 1 Peter 3:9 Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.

KJV Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]. (Ezekiel 36:27)

When a person is saved, God puts within that person His Spirit. His Spirit causes that one to walk in His statutes, to keep His judgments and to do them.

If the person has no desire to serve the Lord and keep His commandments the last 4 years of his or her life, it shows that the person did not truly have the Spirit of God... only a form of godliness prior to his revealing his true nature.

Judas, the son of perdition walked with Jesus and His disciples for nearly 4 years. He was even given the title of Apostle by Jesus... yet, in the end, he proved his true nature. He was unsaved.

The tree is known by its fruit. If the tree does not bear fruit, it is good for nothing but to be cut down and cast into the fire. Christ said the tree was good for nothing but to be cast into the fire. He did not say put it into the fire and then it will be good for me.

 

[J. Jump]

When a person is saved, God puts within that person His Spirit. His Spirit causes that one to walk in His statutes, to keep His judgments and to do them.

SFIC are you a cavlinist? Or a replacement theologian? Or both?

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

When a person is saved, God puts within that person His Spirit. His Spirit causes that one to walk in His statutes, to keep His judgments and to do them.

If the person has no desire to serve the Lord and keep His commandments the last 4 years of his or her life, it shows that the person did not truly have the Spirit of God... only a form of godliness prior to his revealing his true nature.

Judas, the son of perdition walked with Jesus and His disciples for nearly 4 years. He was even given the title of Apostle by Jesus... yet, in the end, he proved his true nature. He was unsaved.

The tree is known by its fruit. If the tree does not bear fruit, it is good for nothing but to be cut down and cast into the fire. Christ said the tree was good for nothing but to be cast into the fire. He did not say put it into the fire and then it will be good for me.

I agree


1Jo 3:8 - He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

 

[npetreley]

When a person is saved, God puts within that person His Spirit. His Spirit causes that one to walk in His statutes, to keep His judgments and to do them.

That poses yet another problem for ME. Does God withdraw the Spirit for the 1,000 years? That isn't much of a seal of the promise, now is it? But, unless God withdraws the Spirit, the Spirit will be spending 1,000 years in the lake of fire/hell/etc. inside believers.