SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
but this "grace", according to "reformed" theology, is only for the ELECT. Then HOW can God condemn those who He has not given this grace to, so that they can be saved?
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The Free Offer Of The Gospel
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but this "grace", according to "reformed" theology, is only for the ELECT. Then HOW can God condemn those who He has not given this grace to, so that they can be saved?
Does God owe us our salvation?
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
what are you on about now?
Just saying we cannot use terms such as fairness or right on how God operates in salvation process, as he is the potter, and we are but clay!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
God has said what He is doing in His Word the Bible, and therefore we should expect that He will do what He says.
It is clear from many passages in the Bible, that UNBELIEF is the main sin that will condemn the lost. This is something that is in man, and they can either continue in their unbelief, or accept and believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and be saved.
For the Calvinists to insist that "faith" is a Giit only given to the "elect", then how could God Justly condemn anyone who does not HAVE this faith, as He did not give it to them in the first place?
Against this ludicrous theology, we have the Sure Word of God, which is very clear
"Faith comes from hearing the Word of God" (Romans 10:17). PERIOD!
No addtions to this from the "reformed"! as they try to distort what the Bible says
Again, does God owe saving faith to all then?
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Romans 11.32 answers that
That describes God having elected unto Himself a faithful remnant, correct?
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Incorrect
Silverhair,
DaveXR650
Well-Known Member
,I think that the "free offer" of the gospel is real in that if a person, any person, does indeed believe the gospel they really will be saved. But we make a mistake if we take a statement like that and interpret it with our human reasoning to be saying therefore that that refutes the idea say of a limited atonement. The Marrow men did not do that although they admitted that as men this is not easy for us to understand. The fact that you willfully and truly responded to the gospel message with all your might does not in any way mean that your response was not totally because of the regenerative action of God. And the fact that Christ died for your sins specifically over 2000 years ago and that your sins were truly dealt with on the cross does not mean in any way that it therefore is not really necessary that at some point in your life you repented of your sins and believed the gospel.
In my opinion, and this is just my individual opinion, it is not wrong to insist that you heard the gospel, decided it was true, and believed in Christ for your salvation. But I'm pretty sure that what really happened was that the Holy Spirit acted directly on you, more than in a way of mere persuasion, but in a creative way - you were born again, or regenerated, or made alive in some way. You then believed the gospel and repented of your sins. And I'm also pretty sure that this occurred as a result of Christ dying for your sins, you specifically, over 2000 years ago; and this was planned in God's mind by His choice as far back as we can conceive time. Your belief and your decision was not the determining or the deciding factor - even though it was real, and necessary.
In my opinion, and this is just my individual opinion, it is not wrong to insist that you heard the gospel, decided it was true, and believed in Christ for your salvation. But I'm pretty sure that what really happened was that the Holy Spirit acted directly on you, more than in a way of mere persuasion, but in a creative way - you were born again, or regenerated, or made alive in some way. You then believed the gospel and repented of your sins. And I'm also pretty sure that this occurred as a result of Christ dying for your sins, you specifically, over 2000 years ago; and this was planned in God's mind by His choice as far back as we can conceive time. Your belief and your decision was not the determining or the deciding factor - even though it was real, and necessary.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
All men do not have an equal chance (even with synergism). A Uyghur (Chinese Muslim) living oppressed in the western mountains with no Gospel in their native language (most do not read Chinese) simply DOES NOT have “an equal chance to know or trust in God” with someone growing up in the “Bible Belt” in the USA. That is just a fact. The world is not “fair” (equality for all).
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Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Under calvinism God saves you then gives you the faith to believe, in the bible it is because we have faith that God saves us. Rom 3:22, Gal 3:22
So no, God does not owe saving faith to anyone, He does not give us faith to believe, that is just a problem in the calvinist camp.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
You need to reread the latter part of Romans 1. God does not MAKE anyone sin, rather God frees then from His restraint and “gives them over to THEIR desires”. Men want free will, God gives them free will, they freely will to sin more and more. It is wrong to lay that blame at God’s feet for not restraining them while screaming that it is unfair for God to violate the free will of those He does save by IRRESISTIBLY DRAWING THEM TO CHRIST to transform their will.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
You did notice that ALL are shut up in disobedience,
and that God shows mercy to ALL.
How do you jump from that to, "elected unto Himself a faithful remnant"?
Are you now prompting universalism?
They are justly condemned for their sin and rebellion.
SH.
You are trying to justify your errant view of salvation, that it is for the "elect" before time only.[/QUOTE]
I just believe this do you;
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works,
but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
You are trying to justify your errant view of salvation, that it is for the "elect" before time only.[/QUOTE]
I just believe this do you;
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works,
but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Why do you waste time on me?
I have ceased wasting time on you.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
So your saying that God is not capable of reaching those people or for that matter anyone unless they have the gospel available to them? Then how do you explain those that are in closed countries that put their trust in God. Are they not saved? They may not have as complete understanding of salvation as we in the west but are you going to deny that they are saved?
Do you not believe what Rom 1:20 says? Man can know God but sadly most will reject Him but that does not mean all will. The Holy Spirit convicts people as we are told in Joh 16:8-9. If while under conviction that person calls out to God do you think God would ignore them?
I agree that the world is not fair but we are not talking about the world are we.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I said NOTHING about what God is capable of and I know missionaries that risk imprisonment to work with them.
The question was: DO THAY HAVE EQUAL CHANCES TO KNOW GOD?
Are YOU claiming they have equal chances of hearing the Gospel, or that hearing the Gospel does not matter? Which is it?
(remember, unequal chances to know God was what made Biblical Calvinism “unfair” according to you.)
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