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The Free Offer Of The Gospel

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Silverhair

Well-Known Member
SH.

You are trying to justify your errant view of salvation, that it is for the "elect" before time only.[/QUOTE]

I just believe this do you;

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling,
not according to our works,
but according to his own purpose and grace,
which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

If you quote the context you will see why Paul was writing.

2Ti 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,
2Ti 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
2Ti 1:10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
2Ti 1:11 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.

We are part of an eternal plan that God determined “before the world began.” We see this in Gen 3:15 at the cross and again at Rev 22:20. Gods' purpose was to save a people for Himself and He made the condition of salvation faith in His son. Paul, here, is encouraging Timothy.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
but this "grace", according to "reformed" theology, is only for the ELECT. Then HOW can God condemn those who He has not given this grace to, so that they can be saved?
Romans 3:21-26
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Condemnation falls upon the law breaker. But God chose to ransom whom he wills when they do not merit his ransom. This is grace.

How is it that you, who has the name in your username, do not know what grace is?
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
I said NOTHING about what God is capable of and I know missionaries that risk imprisonment to work with them.

The question was: DO THAY HAVE EQUAL CHANCES TO KNOW GOD?
Are YOU claiming they have equal chances of hearing the Gospel, or that hearing the Gospel does not matter? Which is it?

(remember, unequal chances to know God was what made Biblical Calvinism “unfair” according to you.)

As I said do you think that God does not have the ability to reach those that cry out to Him wherever they may be? They have the same chance as anyone. Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
The gospel matters but do you think that is the only way that God draws people to Himself. Did you forget creation.

Did I say that calvinism is unfair, well if that is what your theology presents then the label would fit would it not. I would not say it is unfair I would say it is unbiblical.

According to calvinism those that God chooses for Unconditional Election will partake of the Limited Atonement and will be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace. So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God. Your own theology precludes this, but you just do not want to acknowledge that fact.

Calvinist theology has made the good faith offer of salvation moot. If, according to Calvinism, you are not part of this select group then you are doomed for the start. And on top of that God has even decreed just the way you will act out your sinful life and then condemns you for it.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
As I said do you think that God does not have the ability to reach those that cry out to Him wherever they may be? They have the same chance as anyone. Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
The gospel matters but do you think that is the only way that God draws people to Himself. Did you forget creation.

Did I say that calvinism is unfair, well if that is what your theology presents then the label would fit would it not. I would not say it is unfair I would say it is unbiblical.

According to calvinism those that God chooses for Unconditional Election will partake of the Limited Atonement and will be drawn to God by His Irresistible Grace. So all men do not have an equal chance to know or trust in God. Your own theology precludes this, but you just do not want to acknowledge that fact.

Calvinist theology has made the good faith offer of salvation moot. If, according to Calvinism, you are not part of this select group then you are doomed for the start. And on top of that God has even decreed just the way you will act out your sinful life and then condemns you for it.
Your question is a strawman, as is your entire argument.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
If you quote the context you will see why Paul was writing.

2Ti 1:8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God,
2Ti 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
2Ti 1:10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
2Ti 1:11 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.

We are part of an eternal plan that God determined “before the world began.” We see this in Gen 3:15 at the cross and again at Rev 22:20. Gods' purpose was to save a people for Himself and He made the condition of salvation faith in His son. Paul, here, is encouraging Timothy.
Except that the text says He saved US,and called US...not a plan.
God does have a plan it is known ss the Covenant of Redemption.The Father gives a multitude of sinners to the Son. THE Son dies for them.The Spirit gives the new heart
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Romans 3:21-26
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Condemnation falls upon the law breaker. But God chose to ransom whom he wills when they do not merit his ransom. This is grace.

How is it that you, who has the name in your username, do not know what grace is?

Yes God choose to save those He wills and He wills to save those that believe in His son.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

I know you struggle with this text but just keep studying it and perhaps the light will shine in.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Yes God choose to save those He wills and He wills to save those that believe in His son.

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

I know you struggle with this text but just keep studying it and perhaps the light will shine in.
There is nothing to struggle with. As you say, God chooses to save those whom He wills. Those who believe are those whom He wills.
" Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed."

Yet, you keep contradicting yourself and you are simply blind to your contradiction.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
Except that the text says He saved US,and called US...not a plan.
God does have a plan it is known ss the Covenant of Redemption.The Father gives a multitude of sinners to the Son. THE Son dies for them.The Spirit gives the new heart

Just shows you do not read the text but rather read into the text. It is passing strange that you claim to be right about everything and yet you can not or rather will not see what is in plain text.
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
There is nothing to struggle with. As you say, God chooses to save those whom He wills. Those who believe are those whom He wills.
" Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed."

Yet, you keep contradicting yourself and you are simply blind to your contradiction.

You have the amazing ability to miss what is right in front of you.
God choose to save those He wills
and He wills to save those that believe in His son.

Eph 1:13 In Him,
you also,
after listening to the message of truth,
the gospel of your salvation—
having also believed,
you were sealed in Him
with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Hard for you to grasp but just keep at it. Notice the order
HEAR, BELIEVE, SAVED
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
You created a strawman and showed us your impersonation of your strawman you call calvinism.

You know that calvinism has a number of logical and biblical errors but you are to invested in to admit that. You keep trying to defend calvinism and I will just defend the bible.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
You have the amazing ability to miss what is right in front of you.
God choose to save those He wills
and He wills to save those that believe in His son.

Eph 1:13 In Him,
you also,
after listening to the message of truth,
the gospel of your salvation—
having also believed,
you were sealed in Him
with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Hard for you to grasp but just keep at it. Notice the order
HEAR, BELIEVE, SAVED
You said God chooses those who believe.
The person who is dead, must be made alive first so that they can hear and believe. Ephesians 2:1-9 is so clear, yet you refuse the order Paul describes. Why do you refuse the order described?
God makes alive (by grace you are saved). The person hears. They believe. There it is.

But you demand a dead man must hear while they remain dead.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Just shows you do not read the text but rather read into the text. It is passing strange that you claim to be right about everything and yet you can not or rather will not see what is in plain text.
You fail once again to read the verse but look to explain it away.
I think that is shameful and not a valid attempt to face the word of God.

The Doctrine of Election (2Timothy 1:9-10) - John Calvin

WE HAVE SHOWN THIS MORNING, according to the text of St. Paul, that if we will know the free mercy of our God in saving us, we must come to His everlasting counsel: whereby He chose us before the world began. For there we see, He had no regard to our persons, neither to our worthiness, nor to any deserts that we could possibly bring. Before we were born, we were enrolled in His register; He had already adopted us for His children. Therefore let us yield the whole to His mercy, knowing that we cannot boast of ourselves, unless we rob Him of the honor which belongs to Him.

Men have endeavored to invent cavils, to darken the grace of God. For they have said, although God chose men before the world began, yet it was according as He foresaw that one would be diverse from another. The Scripture showeth plainly that God did not wait to see whether men were worthy or not when He chose them: but the sophisters thought they might darken the grace of God by saying, though He regarded not the deserts that were passed, He had an eye to those that were to come. For, say they, though Jacob and his brother Esau had done neither good nor evil, and God chose one and refused the other, yet notwithstanding He foresaw, (as all things are present with Him) that Esau would be a vicious man, and that Jacob would be as he afterwards showed himself.

But these are foolish speculations: for they plainly make St. Paul a liar who saith, God rendered no reward to our works when He chose us, because He did it before the world began. But though the authority of St. Paul were abolished, yet the matter is very plain and open, not only in the Holy Scripture, but in reason; insomuch that those who would make an escape after this sort, show themselves to be men void of all skill. For if we search ourselves to the bottom, what good can we find? Are not all mankind cursed? What do we bring from our mother's womb, except sin?

Therefore we differ not one whit, one from another; but it pleaseth God to take those to Himself whom He would. And for this cause, St. Paul useth these words in another place, when he saith, men have not whereof to rejoice, for no man finds himself better than his fellows, unless it be because God discerneth him. So then, if we confess that God chose us before the world began, it necessarily follows, that God prepared us to receive His grace; that He bestowed upon us that goodness, which was not in us before; that He not only chose us to be heirs of the kingdom of heaven, but He likewise justifies us, and governs us by His Holy Spirit. The Christian ought to be so well resolved in this doctrine, that he is beyond doubt.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
pt2;
In the second place, we must notice that St. Paul speaketh not simply of God's election, for that would not put us beyond doubt; but we should rather remain in perplexity and anguish: but he adds, the calling; whereby God hath opened His counsel, which before was unknown to us, and which we could not reach. How shall we know then that God hath chosen us, that we may rejoice in Him, and boast of the goodness that He hath bestowed upon us? They that speak against God's election, leave the gospel alone; they leave all that God layeth before us, to bring us to Him; all the means that He hath appointed for us, and knoweth to be fit and proper for our use. We must not go on so; but according to St. Paul's rule, we must join the calling with God's everlasting election.

It is said, we are called; and thus we have this second word, calling. Therefore God calleth us: and how? Surely, when it pleaseth Him to certify us of our election; which we could by no other means attain unto. For who can enter into God's counsel? as saith the prophet Isaiah; and also the apostle Paul. But when it pleaseth God to communicate Himself to us familiarly, then we receive that which surmounteth the knowledge of all men: for we have a good and faithful witness, which is the Holy Ghost; that raiseth us above the world, and bringeth us even into the wonderful secrets of God.

We must not speak rashly of God's election, and say, we are predestinate; but if we will be thoroughly assured of our salvation, we must not speak lightly of it; whether God hath taken us to be His children or not. What then? Let us look at what is set forth in the gospel. There God showeth us that He is our Father; and that He will bring us to the inheritance of life, having marked us with the seal of the Holy Ghost in our hearts, which is an undoubted witness of our salvation, if we receive it by faith.

The gospel is preached to a great number, which notwithstanding, are reprobate; yea, and God discovereth and showeth that He hath cursed them: that they have no part nor portion in His kingdom, because they resist the gospel, and cast away the grace that is offered them. But when we receive the doctrine of God with obedience and faith, and rest ourselves upon His promises, and accept this offer that He maketh us, to take us for His children, this, I say, is a certainty of our election. But we must here remark, that when we have knowledge of our salvation, when God hath called us and enlightened us in the faith of His gospel, it is not to bring to nought the everlasting predestination that went before.

There are a great many in these days that will say, who are they whom God hath chosen, but only the faithful? I grant it; but they make an evil consequence of it; and say faith is the cause, yea, and the first cause of our salvation. If they called it a middle cause, it would indeed be true; for the Scripture saith, "By grace are ye saved through faith" (Eph. 2:8). But we must go up higher; for if they attribute faith to men's free will, they blaspheme wickedly against God, and commit sacrilege. We must come to that which the Scripture showeth; to wit, when God giveth us faith, we must know that we are not capable of receiving the gospel, only as He hath framed us by the Holy Ghost.

I
t is not enough for us to hear the voice of man, unless God work within, and speak to us in a secret manner by the Holy Ghost; and from hence cometh faith. But what is the cause of it? Why is faith given to one and not to another? St. Luke showeth us: saying, "As many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13 :48). There were a great number of hearers, and yet but few of them received the promise of salvation. And what few were they? Those that were appointed to salvation. Again, St. Paul speaketh so largely upon this subject, in his epistle to the Ephesians, that it cannot be but the enemies of God's predestination are stupid and ignorant, and that the devil hath plucked out their eyes; and that they have become void of all reason, if they cannot see a thing so plain and evident.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
pt3;
God would not leave us in doubt, neither would He hide His counsel, that we might not know how our salvation was secured; but hath called us to Him by His gospel, and hath sealed the witness of His goodness and fatherly love in our hearts. So then, having such a certainty, let us glorify God, that He hath called us of His free mercy. Let us rest ourselves upon our Lord Jesus Christ, knowing that He hath not deceived us, when He caused it to be preached that He gave Himself for us, and witnessed it by the Holy Ghost. For faith is an undoubted token that God taketh us for His children; and thereby we are led to the everlasting election, according as He had chosen us before.

He saith not that God hath chosen us because we have heard the gospel, but on the other hand, he attributes the faith that is given us to the highest cause; to wit, because God hath fore-ordained that He would save us; seeing we were lost and cast away in Adam. There are certain dolts, who, to blind the eyes of the simple and such as are like themselves, say, the grace of salvation was given us because God ordained that His Son should redeem mankind, and therefore this is common to all.

But St. Paul spake after another sort; and men cannot by such childish arguments mar the doctrine of the gospel: for it is said plainly, that God hath saved us. Does this refer to all without exception? No; he speaketh only of the faithful. Again, does St. Paul include all the world? Some were called by preaching, and yet they made themselves unworthy of the salvation which was offered them: therefore they were reprobate. God left others in their unbelief, who never heard the gospel preached.


Therefore St. Paul directed himself plainly and precisely to those whom God had chosen and reserved to Himself. God's goodness will never be viewed in its true light, nor honored as it deserveth, unless we know that He would not have us remain in the general destruction of mankind; wherein He hath left those that were like unto us: from whom we do not differ; for we are no better than they: but so it pleased God. Therefore all mouths must be stopped; men must presume to take nothing upon themselves, except to praise God, confessing themselves debtors to Him for all their salvation.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Salvation By Grace

The text is the ninth verse, “…according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, who hath called us with a holy calling, not according to our works”—or merit, or faith, or repentance, or gifts, or dedication, or consecration, or holiness, or anything that we can, shall, have, or will do—“but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before you were born, before the world was made” [2 Timothy 1:8-9]—before creation existed, when God alone lived. That is very fine example of the doctrine of grace as it was revealed to Paul from heaven itself, and as it was preached by the incomparable missionary and evangelist and ambassador and apostle to the Gentiles.

Now may God give us grace this morning to understand and to listen, and a heart of faith to believe and to accept. The first all-inclusive avowal that is made by the apostle is this: that we are saved by the power of God. It is God who saves us. It is God who hath saved us. It is God who calls us. It is God who hath delivered us from the penalty and judgment of our sins, according to His own purpose and grace which was given us in Christ Jesus our Lord, and that before the world began [2 Timothy 1:9].

That’s Jonah’s doctrine in [Jonah 2:9], “Salvation is of the Lord.” And that is the unvarying revelation of the Holy Spirit in all of the sacred Scriptures. Our salvation is entirely of God. It springs entirely of Him. It is His love. It is His mercy. It is His grace [Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5]. It is His elective purpose and choice. “Salvation is of God.” Were it not for the mercy of God, no flesh would be saved in His sight. “According to the power of God who hath saved us, who hath called us, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose of grace given us in Christ Jesus before the world began” [2 Timothy 1:8-9].

Our salvation is a work of God our Father. For as the Lord said, our “Father Himself loveth you” [John 16:27]. It is a plan of God, thought of God, executed of God. Christ, God’s Son, was chosen to be our substitute, to bear the penalty of our sins [Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21]. All of our salvation was thought out, planned out, and presented to God in Christ, in heaven, before the world was made. It has its beginning and its execution in God.



Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Christ Jesus to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, To the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in the Beloved

Now, we take these phrases, so meaningful, and see their pertinency to us today. Will you notice first the tenses that Paul uses? Who “hath” saved us. Who “hath” called us. Who “hath” given us [2 Timothy 1:9]. Past perfect, done, completed!
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
pt2;
For a man to suppose, to be persuaded, that he saves himself is a gross error and mistake. Can a temple build itself? We are God’s temple, of God’s own building [1 Corinthians 6:19]. God is the architect and the planner. God is the builder, and God created the materials and gathered them out of which His temple is made. Can creation create itself? Only in the foolishness of the pseudoscientific books; creation never creates itself. Out of nothing, nothing comes. Only by the divine fiat of God can there come out of nothing the universe in which we live and the establishment of our own souls and bodies [Genesis 1:1-28]. In nowise, in no time, in no place, out of nothing can something come.

Thus it is with our salvation. God creates and God recreates. He who made us in the first place can, does, and will remake us again [2 Corinthians 5:2]. And out of the dust of ground God shall raise these temples to live in His sight, glorified, immortalized, transfigured [1 Thessalonians 4:16-17], like the glorious house in which our Savior and elder Brother is now clothed in glory [Romans 8:29; Philippians 3:21].

Does death give birth to life? Could Lazarus raise himself? Dead, corrupting, lying there in the tomb and to lie there forever and forever and forever, were it not for the power of Him who can speak life and resurrection to the dead [John 11:43-44]. As a dead man cannot raise himself, as a dead man is hopeless before God and powerless to live in His sight, so we are in our souls and in our bodies, dead, buried, corrupting, under the judgment and penalty of sin and death [Genesis 3:19].

Salvation is of God. It is the voice of the mighty God who can speak and Lazarus come forth [John 11:43-44]. It is the voice of the mighty God who shall speak to these who sleep in the heart of the earth, in the depths of the sea, wasted in the dust of creation [John 5:25; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17]. They shall stand up like a mighty army [Ezekiel 37:10], and live in this His sight someday, some glorious day, in the power of God, “Who hath saved us, and called us . . . not according to our works, but according to His own purpose of grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began” [2 Timothy 1:9].
 

Silverhair

Well-Known Member
You said God chooses those who believe.
The person who is dead, must be made alive first so that they can hear and believe. Ephesians 2:1-9 is so clear, yet you refuse the order Paul describes. Why do you refuse the order described?
God makes alive (by grace you are saved). The person hears. They believe. There it is.

But you demand a dead man must hear while they remain dead.

Why do you refuse to believe the order that Paul has in
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—
having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
OR
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

What Paul says here is clear. The Gospel is preached, people hear it, believe it, call on God and are saved. Sorry if that doesn’t fit into the Reformed-Calvinist scenario.
 

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Why do you refuse to believe the order that Paul has in
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—
having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
OR
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?

What Paul says here is clear. The Gospel is preached, people hear it, believe it, call on God and are saved. Sorry if that doesn’t fit into the Reformed-Calvinist scenario.
Read the whole instead of cherry picking, Silverhair.
Ephesians 1:3-14
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

Your "order" is not supported by the whole of the text. Essentially, you want God to make you the king while God becomes your advisor. You consistently shock me with your selfishness as you demand your self to be the driver of your life.

As to Romans 10,the entire passage and indeed all of Romans supports the truth that God chooses to make people alive, call their name, give them faith and cause them to believe even as they repent.

All glory to God alone and no glory to yourself.
Yet, you keep arguing that you deserve the glory.
 
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