The Free Offer Of The Gospel

[Silverhair]

I don't. God chooses whom He wills. He is Sovereign, I am not.

Not at all. Your claim here shows your ignorance.

He gave his view. You twisted it and claimed he said something else. You do this consistently by distorting another person's position.

People can point to scripture and show how I have misinterpreted a passage. You rarely, if ever, do that. You immediately fall on your strawman.

What does this have to do with your twisting and distorting what others write?

Actually, Jesus words.
The word Jesus uses in John 6:44 is the word helkō, which can mean either “draw / attract” (like a magnet) or “drag.” The word is used eight times in the New Testament. The best example where the word arguably means “draw” rather than “drag” is John 12:32, where Jesus says that when he is crucified, “I will draw all people to myself.”
Otherwise, the New Testament meanings of this word all lean toward “drag.” In John 18:10, the word is used to describe Peter pulling his sword out of its sheath. In John 21:6, the disciples are barely able to “drag” in the net because of the huge catch of fish (see also 21:11). In Acts 16:19, the owners of the fortune-telling slave girl “dragged” Paul and Silas into court. In Acts 21:30, the mob “dragged” Paul out of the Temple, intending to lynch him. And in James 2:6, James argues that it is the rich who “drag” his readers into court. None of these examples can be easily taken to mean persuasion or attraction rather than pulling by force; indeed, the dragging is done against people’s will, wherever people are involved.
Drag Versus Draw: How Does God Bring People to Faith?

Well, you certainly think it is a strange view, though many others think it is taught by Jesus himself.

Some people think the world is flat but that does not make their view correct does it. They deny the clear evidence that is presented to them just as you deny clear scripture when it is presented to you.

helko [helkuo] to draw, compel G1670
The basic meaning is “to draw,” “tug,” of, in the case of persons, “compel.” It may be used for “to draw” to a place by magic, for demons being “drawn” to animal life, or for the inner influencing of the will (Plato). The Semitic world has the concept of an irresistible drawing to God (cf. 1Sa_10:5; 1Sa_19:19 ff.; Jer_29:26; Hos_9:7). In the OT helkein denotes a powerful impulse, as in Son_1:4, which is obscure but expresses the force of love. This is the point in the two important passages in Joh_6:44; Joh_12:32. There is no thought here of force or magic. The term figuratively expresses the supernatural power of the love of God of Christ which goes out to all (Joh_12:32) but without which no one can come (Joh_6:44). . . . the compulsion is not automatic.
TDNT Abridged Edition

I noted that in the text you gave it did not reference Joh 6:44 so I figured I would give you this to help you understand how the word should be used there.

 

[Iconoclast]

The drawing mentioned is effectual in it's result.
It is not the caricature of being dragged kicking and objecting all the way....
it is an effectual drawing.

 

[Silverhair]

The drawing mentioned is effectual in it's result.
It is not the caricature of being dragged kicking and objecting all the way....
it is an effectual drawing.

The people are draw by the gospel or the conviction of the Holy Spirit or creation etc but even then they have to choose between accept or reject. It still comes down to a free will choice. Those that the father gives the son are those that have freely trusted in His son.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So creation also draws ppl? Wow, talk about sawing the legs off of the gospel and missions.

 

[Silverhair]

So creation also draws ppl? Wow, talk about sawing the legs off of the gospel and missions.

Rom 1:18-20 Read that as it might help you understand that God is not a calvinist, although you treat Him as if He were.

 

[AustinC]

Rom 1:18-20 Read that as it might help you understand that God is not a calvinist, although you treat Him as if He were.

Silverhair, your capacity to completely ignore scripture that defines the verses you cherry pick is simply astonishing. Let's read Romans 1:17-25.
This Good News tells us how God makes us right in his sight. This is accomplished from start to finish by faith. As the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.” But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.

There is nothing in Romans 1 that ever indicates a person can be saved by observing nature alone. They can know God exists, but they will always make God in their own image. We see this with the people of Israel at Mt Sinai when they ask Aaron to make an image of Yahweh so they can worship him. From that request humans make a golden calf...which God despises.

No matter how hard you appeal to Romans 1, it always declares you to be wrong.

 

[Silverhair]

Silverhair, your capacity to completely ignore scripture that defines the verses you cherry pick is simply astonishing. Let's read Romans 1:17-25.
This Good News tells us how God makes us right in his sight. This is accomplished from start to finish by faith. As the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.” But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.

There is nothing in Romans 1 that ever indicates a person can be saved by observing nature alone. They can know God exists, but they will always make God in their own image. We see this with the people of Israel at Mt Sinai when they ask Aaron to make an image of Yahweh so they can worship him. From that request humans make a golden calf...which God despises.

No matter how hard you appeal to Romans 1, it always declares you to be wrong.

You are so stuck on your errant idea that God could not have in any why allowed for man to actually have a true free will so that they were responsible for their eternal destination. It just boggles the mind. Your sovereign god must not be that sovereign after all.

Your calvinism has blinded you to the truth of scripture and yet you continue to claim just the opposite. That is your problem not mine. The God of the bible does not lie so when He says He desires that all come to faith in His son then I trust that He will make the way possible for all men to have that real chance.

You on the other hand put forward the idea that God makes a disingenuous offer of salvation when in reality only a select group can possibly be saved. Your theology destroys the character of God and you either do not realize that or you just ignore that fact.

 

[AustinC]

I provided scripture.

Silverhair, your capacity to completely ignore scripture that defines the verses you cherry pick is simply astonishing. Let's read Romans 1:17-25.
This Good News tells us how God makes us right in his sight. This is accomplished from start to finish by faith. As the Scriptures say, “It is through faith that a righteous person has life.” But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.

There is nothing in Romans 1 that ever indicates a person can be saved by observing nature alone. They can know God exists, but they will always make God in their own image. We see this with the people of Israel at Mt Sinai when they ask Aaron to make an image of Yahweh so they can worship him. From that request humans make a golden calf...which God despises.

No matter how hard you appeal to Romans 1, it always declares you to be wrong.

You reply with..."calvinism"...

You are so stuck on your errant idea that God could not have in any why allowed for man to actually have a true free will so that they were responsible for their eternal destination. It just boggles the mind. Your sovereign god must not be that sovereign after all.

Your calvinism has blinded you to the truth of scripture and yet you continue to claim just the opposite. That is your problem not mine. The God of the bible does not lie so when He says He desires that all come to faith in His son then I trust that He will make the way possible for all men to have that real chance.

You on the other hand put forward the idea that God makes a disingenuous offer of salvation when in reality only a select group can possibly be saved. Your theology destroys the character of God and you either do not realize that or you just ignore that fact.

Note: In my post, I made no mention of free will. I presented the whole text of Romans 1, which tells us that men will not be justified by their observance of nature alone. If that is all they have, they will always substitute God for an image they created. My evidence was Israel on Mt Sinai.
Your last sentence is false. You made up the whole thing and ascribed me to it. By the way, you doing such a thing is the very epitome of being disingenuous.

 

[Silverhair]

I provided scripture.

You reply with..."calvinism"...

Note: In my post, I made no mention of free will. I presented the whole text of Romans 1, which tells us that men will not be justified by their observance of nature alone. If that is all they have, they will always substitute God for an image they created. My evidence was Israel on Mt Sinai.
Your last sentence is false. You made up the whole thing and ascribed me to it. By the way, you doing such a thing is the very epitome of being disingenuous.

Did I say that they would be justified by their observance of nature alone, NO. Did say that God will use creation to draw men to Himself, YES. As I said the god that you have in view does not seem to be all that sovereign does he. You really should just trust in the God of the bible and should ditch the one that your theological view wants to put forward.

Your theology destroys the character of God and you either do not realize that or you just ignore that fact.

 

[Iconoclast]

The people are draw by the gospel or the conviction of the Holy Spirit or creation etc but even then they have to choose between accept or reject. It still comes down to a free will choice. Those that the father gives the son are those that have freely trusted in His son.

Said no bible verse ever,

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning

This thread will be closed no sooner than 630 am EDT / 330 am PDT

 

[SovereignGrace]

Rom 1:18-20 Read that as it might help you understand that God is not a calvinist, although you treat Him as if He were.

That passage is a passage of condemnation not a passage of justification.

 

[Silverhair]

Said no bible verse ever,

You need to start reading your bible and not so much calvinist philosophy.

Here are a few verses you can start with:

Joh 1:11-12; Rom 10:9-10; Isa 55:6-7; 1Jn 5:1; 1Jn 3:23; 1Jn 4:15; Jn 6:29; jn 20:31

 

[Silverhair]

That passage is a passage of condemnation not a passage of justification.

Yep sure is but but as per usual the calvinist always looks for the doom and gloom, the verse says man has no excuse for not knowing God so logic should tell you, although you always miss it, that man can know God and shock surprise some do. But that does not fit your theology so you just ignore it.
Just back up a couple of verses and note what Paul writes, "the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes". Note it does not say for those that are saved so they can believe which is the calvinist view of salvation.

God’s love is unconditional, your salvation is not.

 

[Salty]

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