The Future of Small Rural Churches

[glfredrick]

Not what I was asking. What i was looking for is where does the Bible instruct us to set a specific task for members as you describe. Where do i get the authority to tell our church members how much they will give? Where does scripture have me set each member in a ministry? Isn't that the job of the Holy Spirit. For the Pastor/deacons/elders to set such guidelines falls under the doctrine of the nicolaitians. Read Rev 2

You are reading a lot into what I wrote based on something other than knowledge of our actual church workings.

The members of our church sign a covenant where they agree to support the ministries of the church, and those ministries can come from any number of sources, including the pastors/elders -- or mere members responding to needs in or out of the church.

The discipline aspect comes in when a member fails to live up to the covenant they agreed upon when becoming a member, which has as part of its context active roles in ministry, community issues, and community groups.

You ask about "ever member a minister..."

What about this:
Ephesians 4:11 (KJV) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

It seems fairly clear from Paul's writing that the pastors and teachers of the church are to train the saints for the work of ministry. Do we not teach that in virtually all of our churches (and if not, why not)? It is for the building up of the body, and for the work of ministry that we are called to be disciples, "teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you..."

I think that you are trying to pick a fight for no particular reason based in ignorance of what it is that we are actually doing in our church. Why, I'm not sure -- perhaps because our church is growing and other churches are not? Even that seems like a weird reason -- do we not read in the Acts passage I cite above that God caused the church to grow daily, and that 3000 and 5000 were added to their numbers? Can that not happen even today?

I'm not against small church, as I said way above in this thread, I've been a part of small church all of my life. Most of the congregations were under 50 and several under 25. I've started churches, pastored churches, and been ran off from churches when their structure and lack of willingness to do what the Scriptures say to do caused them to rebel against their pastor. I'm now in a mega-church that is still a very small church, the average group size being under 20, but we all gather together on Sundays for joint service and our numbers continue to increase every day. More so, we're doing that precisely by preaching the gospel.

Here is a video of one of our sermons:
http://vimeo.com/2278122

 

[Luke2427]

I am not sure exactly what translation you use but the scripture is clear on the term spiritual. I suggest that you look into a concordance for the word since it does call us to it and we will be IF we are saved. There is no question that small churches will remain as well as large ones. However large or small does not constitute spiritual evidence. The problem is not that the church on earth is going by the wayside but that the church of God is declining at a great pace do to a lack of spirituality. (True seeking of God) not the God I want but the One of the bible.

Bob reprimanded me for getting off topic but this is why I asked you about your standards of holiness. You say it is the reason small churches are dying as well as large ones. This is perfectly on topic.

At least two of us are curious about these remarks you have yet to elaborate on. What standards are churches not meeting that is killing rural churches and metropolitan churches? (On topic Bob).

What really is the help of your post if you are not going to be more specific?

 

[gb93433]

All churches were small at one time. Everyone of them started with one person.

Some churches choose to stay smaller and plant new churches from the extra numbers they have.

 

[Jim1999]

It seems fairly clear from Paul's writing that the pastors and teachers of the church are to train the saints for the work of ministry. Do we not teach that in virtually all of our churches (and if not, why not)? It is for the building up of the body, and for the work of ministry that we are called to be disciples, "teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you..."

I liked this quote from glfrederick

----------------------------------------------

I always considered my duty as pastor was to preach myself out of a job and move on.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[thegospelgeek]

You are reading a lot into what I wrote based on something other than knowledge of our actual church workings.

The members of our church sign a covenant where they agree to support the ministries of the church, and those ministries can come from any number of sources, including the pastors/elders -- or mere members responding to needs in or out of the church.

The discipline aspect comes in when a member fails to live up to the covenant they agreed upon when becoming a member, which has as part of its context active roles in ministry, community issues, and community groups.

You ask about "ever member a minister..."

What about this:
Ephesians 4:11 (KJV) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

It seems fairly clear from Paul's writing that the pastors and teachers of the church are to train the saints for the work of ministry. Do we not teach that in virtually all of our churches (and if not, why not)? It is for the building up of the body, and for the work of ministry that we are called to be disciples, "teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you..."

I think that you are trying to pick a fight for no particular reason based in ignorance of what it is that we are actually doing in our church. Why, I'm not sure -- perhaps because our church is growing and other churches are not? Even that seems like a weird reason -- do we not read in the Acts passage I cite above that God caused the church to grow daily, and that 3000 and 5000 were added to their numbers? Can that not happen even today?

I'm not against small church, as I said way above in this thread, I've been a part of small church all of my life. Most of the congregations were under 50 and several under 25. I've started churches, pastored churches, and been ran off from churches when their structure and lack of willingness to do what the Scriptures say to do caused them to rebel against their pastor. I'm now in a mega-church that is still a very small church, the average group size being under 20, but we all gather together on Sundays for joint service and our numbers continue to increase every day. More so, we're doing that precisely by preaching the gospel.

Here is a video of one of our sermons:
http://vimeo.com/2278122

Not trying to pick a fight. I am sure any memeber here who knows me can attest to that. I was just trying to understand what it is you are doing and how it is aligned with the Bible. You are correct when you say that I have no idea of what you are doing at your church. That is why I am asking questions. Based on my understanding of what you have said, I think the pastor and Church have way too much control over the congregation. It is very possible that I am wrong. But based on what you have told me, there are rules and restrictions in your covenant.

Yes every member is a ministry, but there is nothing in scripture that says that I, as a Pastor, am to monitor what ministry work the congergation does as individuals. Maybe I just misunderstand what you are telling me but a Pastor is to do many things, dominating the congregation is not one of them.

 

[glfredrick]

I posted an example sermon, where the pastor lays out the work of the church. Did you watch it? That is what is going on, and the people are on board... In ways that a lot of other pastors could only dream of. Not out of coercion, but because that is what the Scriptures say.

No control freaks at our place. If anything, the pastors and staff are too laid back for their own good. The people, most of them new to the gospel and Christianity, are eager to take care of the ministry. We don't have any old deacons or blue-haired ladies telling them not to... :thumbs:

Oh, since I posted the first stuff about our church, I've learned that someone has just purchased a new building for us to solve some of our growth problems. We've been in conversation with the Catholic diocese in the area, who are divesting themselves of old buildings that they can no longer fill. The new building is a cathedral -- HUGE building in the traditional Catholic cathedral style, which we will renovate. Purchase price was in excess of $1M. Love it when God's people take the gospel seriously.

To see the building and surrounding area (urban) open Google maps, enter 1100 S. Shelby Street, Louisville, KY, and by clicking "more" in the left navigation pane, select street view. Then you can see Sojourn Church (930 Mary St), the main campus (an old K-6 grade school building) and on Oak and Shelby Streets (acrss from the Archdiocese of Louisville, another place marker on the map) is the newly purchased building.

 

[gb93433]

I posted an example sermon, where the pastor lays out the work of the church. Did you watch it? That is what is going on, and the people are on board... In ways that a lot of other pastors could only dream of. Not out of coercion, but because that is what the Scriptures say.

Just give it time. Satan always finds a way. Years ago I started a church and by the second week the KJVO folks showed up.

 

[nodak]

Interesting thread.

Just some thoughts from an old lady (no blue hair.)

I've spent most of my life very very rural, with only those tiny traditional rural churches to attend.

We can blame them for not growing faster, or look at it another way.

In a community of 50 people, with around 35-40 saved and part of the Baptist church, they aren't doing half bad.

Show me the megachurch that can evangelize that successfully.

Of course, we have a charge from the Lord to be faithful.

Some churches are faithful and not growing numerically.

Some churches are faithful and growing numerically.

Some churches are unfaithful and not growing numerically.

And some are unfaithful and growing numerically.

Seems being faithful and numerical growth don't have a necessary correlation.

 

[glfredrick]

Just give it time. Satan always finds a way. Years ago I started a church and by the second week the KJVO folks showed up.

They are welcome in our church -- they just don't get to set the theological tone for the entire body. If one person wishes to use the NIV and another the KJV, so be it. When they start to exclude someone else, they are wrong.



As a side note, after being on this board for just a few weeks now, I cannot believe how many times (and by how many people) the KJVO issue crops up. To me, that whole issue borders on idolatry for one version of the Bible. Do we worship the text or the God who gave us the text?

I've watched church after church explode once they adopt a KJV only position or conversely force people to refrain from adopting some other translation as a personal Bible. Is that the goal? Sorry if this is far afield from the OP, but this is starting to get on my nerves... Brother fighting against brother for which human translation the other holds in his hands... For shame. :tear:

 

[glfredrick]

Interesting thread.

Just some thoughts from an old lady (no blue hair.)

I've spent most of my life very very rural, with only those tiny traditional rural churches to attend.

We can blame them for not growing faster, or look at it another way.

In a community of 50 people, with around 35-40 saved and part of the Baptist church, they aren't doing half bad.

Show me the megachurch that can evangelize that successfully.

Of course, we have a charge from the Lord to be faithful.

Some churches are faithful and not growing numerically.

Some churches are faithful and growing numerically.

Some churches are unfaithful and not growing numerically.

And some are unfaithful and growing numerically.

Seems being faithful and numerical growth don't have a necessary correlation.

As one who has come from some of those type churches, I couldn't agree more! Some congregations are just land-locked -- there are not that many more people to reach and many have been reached! Awesome!

But, I, like others here, have seen a GREAT many other small churches that remain small because they have a fatal flaw in their founding DNA. They are fighting churches, often run by one family, who are unwilling to surrender their hallowed ground (that granddad paid for and built with his own hands) to a new congregation. That is selfish and God will judge the true motives of the heart in the leaders that think that way.

In fact, in a lot of rural areas there are multiple, multiple small churches because they all split from one another because of the fighting. None of them can accomplish anything because of it.

 

[gb93433]

They are welcome in our church -- they just don't get to set the theological tone for the entire body. If one person wishes to use the NIV and another the KJV, so be it. When they start to exclude someone else, they are wrong.

As a side note, after being on this board for just a few weeks now, I cannot believe how many times (and by how many people) the KJVO issue crops up. To me, that whole issue borders on idolatry for one version of the Bible. Do we worship the text or the God who gave us the text?

I've watched church after church explode once they adopt a KJV only position or conversely force people to refrain from adopting some other translation as a personal Bible. Is that the goal? Sorry if this is far afield from the OP, but this is starting to get on my nerves... Brother fighting against brother for which human translation the other holds in his hands...

For some strange reason I have never seen anyone practicing James 1:22 ever dominate any church.

 

[Pastor Kyle]

Small Rural Church Pastor

I am currently the pastor of a small country church, and let me tell you that it is compeltely different from a city church.
I was born and raised in Cincinnati, Ohio. The church that I attended was not very big, but very different from the church that I currently Pastor.
It seems to me (I may have a different opinion from others) but you have hit the nail directly on the head when referencing the state that many small rural churches are in.
I will use my church for example, since it is the one that I know the most about, but I have been associate Pastor for another rural church.
The church that I pastor runs anywhere from 45-70 people, depending on who shows up and what is going on.
I took over the church 4 years ago and we have seen the Lord move, but not very quick. I have been told that a slow growth is good growth, and I have always hung onto that, because like you indicated, it is very easy for a Pastor of a small country church to get discouraged very quickly.
But one of the main things that I have noticed is about change.
Now I don't mean doctrinally, but what I am talking about is modernization.
For example, we recently installed a projector and laptop for use during my sermons. We do not put full Bible Verses up, for I believe that will discourage people from bringing their own Bible's, or music, we have hymn books, and don't really see the need for music to be on the wall. But I use powerpoint in my messaeges. For the most part people have accepted it, but we did lose a family over it. I was told by the Husband that he would not attend the church as long as "that thing" was shining on the wall.
I have always been taught that use every means necessary to teach and preach the Word of God. We have several older folks in church, and I have found that since I put my sermon outline with verse references on the wall they are able to follow along much easier.
This is just one example that I have found. Growth can come, but what I have found is that you have to be VERY PATIENT with the people. Evangelistic messages can help, but your right, they do fall on deaf ears, they have heard them all their life. What I have found that works is believe it or not, doctrinally based messages. What I mean by that is getting back to the simplicity of the Bible. What I have found to be the case is, and not all churches fall into this catagorie, alot of rural, small churches are Biblically Ignorant. Sometimes it's not all their fautlt, they have not been taught. I have come back to the simplicty of the Bible. Teaching basic teachings, for example, I am currently preaching a sermon series on the 10 Commandments, and one of my Members, a Deacon's wife told me that she has never heard a full message on the adultery commandment. So this is what I mean by Biblically Ignorant.
There are times when it feels like that you are just beating your head against a wall when trying to get them to see the need for outreach. Majority of the times you will hear them say things like, well we know that person, they go to such and such church, so we will just leave them alone. Never taking into consideration their Spiritual State of Mind. Or you will run into the fact that since they think they know everybody, there is no need. Or my all time favorite, "They know where we are, if they want to come to church, they will come" (that one always drives me up a wall)
The one main theme I have always held to is simply this: I may not always like the fact that I am in a small town (county size is 17,000) or even in a small church, but the fact is that God put me here for a reason, and all I can do is serve the Lord to the best of my ability.
My advice to you, Preach the Word, there are starving Christians, they may never want to be part of a "large church", but that may not be God's will either. And they may never be excited about visitation, or even new people coming into their church, and the church may be Spiritually Dead, but who are we to decide that for them. If God wants you there, there is a reason, utilize the opportunity to preach to people who may have never been able to hear Good Biblically Sermons from an educated Man of God.

 

[gb93433]

I am currently the pastor of a small country church, and let me tell you that it is completely different from a city church.

I am reading the book The Healthy Small Church: Diagnosis and Treatment for the Big Issues by Dennis Bickers and the authors says exactly what you do.

 

[Pastor Kyle]

I am reading the book The Healthy Small Church: Diagnosis and Treatment for the Big Issues by Dennis Bickers and the authors says exactly what you do.

It's nice to have some validation. Where did you get the book? I would like a copy of it.

 

[gb93433]

It's nice to have some validation. Where did you get the book? I would like a copy of it.

I purchased the book on amazon.

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

Before I was called to preach most of my life had been spent in large churches, some of then with attendance in the thousands. As a pastor my minstry has been almost exclusively in small churches, under 75, some under 20.

I agree with many of the observations and ideas here, but to me the biggest difference is in the leadership. You don't manage a small church, you must lead it.

My favorite book on the subject is "Leading the Small Church" by Doran McCarty. I would recomend any pastor who has not read this one get it.

The expectations and leadership of the small church is very different. The investment of the members, the importance in their lives, and their view of the pastor are all very different than in the big church. You have to recognize the power structure in the church, the families involved, and you have to build personal relationships and use those families. You can't force ideas on them, lead by popular vote, or move them to change quickly. You have to build concensus, tolerate differences, and most of all remain humble. You don't have all the answers and you are not there to solve their problems, Christ is. You are then to help them discover the answers for themselves.

It is hard but it is worth it. You may not reach large groups of people for Christ, but in the end you will make a large difference in the lives you reach.

 

[freeatlast]

Before I was called to preach most of my life had been spent in large churches, some of then with attendance in the thousands. As a pastor my minstry has been almost exclusively in small churches, under 75, some under 20.

I agree with many of the observations and ideas here, but to me the biggest difference is in the leadership. You don't manage a small church, you must lead it.

My favorite book on the subject is "Leading the Small Church" by Doran McCarty. I would recomend any pastor who has not read this one get it.

The expectations and leadership of the small church is very different. The investment of the members, the importance in their lives, and their view of the pastor are all very different than in the big church. You have to recognize the power structure in the church, the families involved, and you have to build personal relationships and use those families. You can't force ideas on them, lead by popular vote, or move them to change quickly. You have to build concensus, tolerate differences, and most of all remain humble. You don't have all the answers and you are not there to solve their problems, Christ is. You are then to help them discover the answers for themselves.

It is hard but it is worth it. You may not reach large groups of people for Christ, but in the end you will make a large difference in the lives you reach.

I think this is exactly why the church is ion such a bad way. Instead of preaching and teaching truth water down messages are being given waiting on people to grow when they have no food. The church today is starving and having their ears tickled at the same time. What we are seeing is a postmodern church and Pastors not speaking all the word of God afraid they will offend but in fact are actually feeding the postmodern climate we are in. Far too many pastors are seeking to be the memberships buddy instead of being their leader and teacher. If the Lord had done this with the disciples there would never had been a church.

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

I think this is exactly why the church is ion such a bad way. Instead of preaching and teaching truth water down messages are being given waiting on people to grow when they have no food. The church today is starving and having their ears tickled at the same time. What we are seeing is a postmodern church and Pastors not speaking all the word of God afraid they will offend but in fact are actually feeding the postmodern climate we are in. Far too many pastors are seeking to be the memberships buddy instead of being their leader and teacher. If the Lord had done this with the disciples there would never had been a church.

Well of course I couldn't disagree more, but I don't think you understand what I am trying to say either. I am not saying water down the gospel or fail to preach the entire word of God. What I am saying is that you have to earn the right to preach those things.

In the rural church environment all your education and experience mean nothing. If you want to be a leader, and you want them to hear your message you have to earn the right first. All the preaching in the world will be wasted if the audience is not listening and when the expert from out of town tries to educate these poor little church members they are not listening.

For the rural church the relationship has to be built for the message to be heard. You have to walk the walk and share the trials of life with them before they will listen to what you have to say. And this is exactly what Jesus did. He lived with his disciples, walked with them, worked with them, ate with them every day. He built the relationship and the respect and then when he gave his message they were ready to hear it.

The outside pastor that comes to the rural church starts with nothing. They don't care what you learned in seminary and they sure dont care how you used to do it wherever you came from.

But after you share their lives. After you visit them in the hospital. Pray for thier children. After they have seen your life, that you practice what you preach. After you have been there in the funeral homes, rest homes, sick beds and trials of life, then and only then will they consider what you have to say.

 

[abcgrad94]

The outside pastor that comes to the rural church starts with nothing. They don't care what you learned in seminary and they sure dont care how you used to do it wherever you came from.

But after you share their lives. After you visit them in the hospital. Pray for thier children. After they have seen your life, that you practice what you preach. After you have been there in the funeral homes, rest homes, sick beds and trials of life, then and only then will they consider what you have to say.

Very true words, NCT!:thumbsup:

 

[freeatlast]

Well of course I couldn't disagree more, but I don't think you understand what I am trying to say either. I am not saying water down the gospel or fail to preach the entire word of God. What I am saying is that you have to earn the right to preach those things.

In the rural church environment all your education and experience mean nothing. If you want to be a leader, and you want them to hear your message you have to earn the right first. All the preaching in the world will be wasted if the audience is not listening and when the expert from out of town tries to educate these poor little church members they are not listening.

For the rural church the relationship has to be built for the message to be heard. You have to walk the walk and share the trials of life with them before they will listen to what you have to say. And this is exactly what Jesus did. He lived with his disciples, walked with them, worked with them, ate with them every day. He built the relationship and the respect and then when he gave his message they were ready to hear it.

The outside pastor that comes to the rural church starts with nothing. They don't care what you learned in seminary and they sure dont care how you used to do it wherever you came from.

But after you share their lives. After you visit them in the hospital. Pray for thier children. After they have seen your life, that you practice what you preach. After you have been there in the funeral homes, rest homes, sick beds and trials of life, then and only then will they consider what you have to say.

While your formula may sound nice my bet is thta it does not work even in your church. I live in the bible belt and the small churces Pastors all follow your suggestions but they all remain VERY underfed. The churches today are not growing in spirituality and thta is because Pastors want to be their buddies and not their leaders. While I do believe that a Pastor needs to be a friend, he also needs to love them and tell them the truth. If they are really Christians they will listen. If they do not then they are not saved. Actually to follow your suggestions violates scripture. We are to preach the word in season and out of season. There is no waiting. Speaking the whole truth from the beginning can easily be done in love. By the way unless the word is taught there is no love.