The . . . good wine . . . .

[37818]

John 2:9-10, When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

Unfortunately Christians disagree what that good wine was.

I am of the persuasion it was the fresh juice of the grape vine. And Jesus our Christ being our Holy Creator.

 

[Judith]

You are correct. The good wine (grape juice) was the newly squeezed instead of the old wine that had started to sour (ferment).

 

[Armchair Apologist]

John 2:9-10, When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

Unfortunately Christians disagree what that good wine was.

I am of the persuasion it was the fresh juice of the grape vine. And Jesus our Christ being our Holy Creator.

Doesn 't fit the narrative at all but if you are dead-set on Jesus being a teetotaler then I guess you would have to be right!

 

[John of Japan]

John 2:9-10, When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew the governor of the feast called the bridegroom, And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now.

Unfortunately Christians disagree what that good wine was.

I am of the persuasion it was the fresh juice of the grape vine. And Jesus our Christ being our Holy Creator.

Amen to that! The Bible says that when Jesus acted, people had already "drunk freely" (v. 10). The word is methuo (μεθύω), to be a actually drunk. The word occurs 7 times in the NT including this one, all negative. Now if Jesus had made alcoholic wine at that point, He would have been making people more drunk, in other words to sin with drunkenness, and that's not the Jesus I believe in and know and love.

 

[360watt]

I have heard also, not about the wine Jesus made, but the wine of the day was often mostly pure grape juice with a small amount of alcohol to purify it, take out any germs.

Could be wrong seeing people did still get drunk off it, unless the getting drunk off it was a different kind of wine.

 

[Ascetic X]

Amen to that! The Bible says that when Jesus acted, people had already "drunk freely" (v. 10). The word is methuo (μεθύω), to be an actually drunk. The word occurs 7 times in the NT including this one, all negative. Now if Jesus had made alcoholic wine at that point, He would have been making people more drunk, in other words to sin with drunkenness, and that's not the Jesus I believe in and know and love.

I have always been bothered by the first miracle of Jesus.

Turning water into wine seems sort of inessential, unless it was a metaphor for Jesus bringing new teachings, new life, new covenant to the world.

If the miracle wine was non-alcoholic grape juice, I find it hard to believe anyone would rave about it. But if it was alcoholic, this does not seem in keeping with the virtues of Christ.

Matthew 11:19

The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

 

[John of Japan]

I have always been bothered by the first miracle of Jesus.

Turning water into wine seems sort of inessential, unless it was a metaphor for Jesus bringing new teachings, new life, new covenant to the world.

Here is what happened. Jesus was not yet ready for a public ministry, since he said to Mary in v. 4, "Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come." However, he honored His mother, and did what she asked, just as commanded in the Decalogue: "Honor thy father and mother."

If the miracle wine was non-alcoholic grape juice, I find it hard to believe anyone would rave about it. But if it was alcoholic, this does not seem in keeping with the virtues of Christ.

Are you kidding? Personally, I once tasted alcoholic wine and hated it. I don't see how anyone could keep drinking it. On the other hand, I absolutely love grape juice! Sometimes when I drink it or something else good and natural, I say a prayer of thanks to God for inventing it. Whether it was alcoholic or non-alcoholic, it was an awesome miracle, absolutely impossible to anyone but Jesus and never duplicated by apostles or other disciples. But why would Jesus make it alcoholic when folks were already drunk?

Matthew 11:19

The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

And your point is with this verse?

 

[John of Japan]

I have heard also, not about the wine Jesus made, but the wine of the day was often mostly pure grape juice with a small amount of alcohol to purify it, take out any germs.

Could be wrong seeing people did still get drunk off it, unless the getting drunk off it was a different kind of wine.

That is mostly what I've read about "wine" in those days, except I've read that they didn't need to add the alcohol, since fermentation begins naturally with contact from the air. At any rate, the alcoholic wine was not that powerful, as you say, with just a small percentage of alcohol. However, modern wine can have up to 20% alcohol, and that will make anyone drunk pretty quick.

Here is a good article about what you wrote by a professor at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary: Was New Testament Wine Alcoholic? - Christ and Culture. The follow-up article is excellent, too: Does Approval of the Use of New Testament Wine Justify Use of Modern Alcoholic Beverages? - Christ and Culture

There were various kinds of alcoholic beverages, called "strong drink" in the Bible. People being people, they easily found ways to produce "strong drink."

 

[Ascetic X]

Here is what happened. Jesus was not yet ready for a public ministry, since he said to Mary in v. 4, "Woman, what does your concern have to do with Me? My hour has not yet come." However, he honored His mother, and did what she asked, just as commanded in the Decalogue: "Honor thy father and mother."


Are you kidding? Personally, I once tasted alcoholic wine and hated it. I don't see how anyone could keep drinking it. On the other hand, I absolutely love grape juice! Sometimes when I drink it or something else good and natural, I say a prayer of thanks to God for inventing it. Whether it was alcoholic or non-alcoholic, it was an awesome miracle, absolutely impossible to anyone but Jesus and never duplicated by apostles or other disciples. But why would Jesus make it alcoholic when folks were already drunk?

And your point is with this verse?

I hate the taste of alcoholic wine too, but I drink grape juice every day.

The enemies of Jesus accused Him of being a person who drank too much wine and ate too much food. It seems like they were hyper-critical and exaggerating just to cause trouble for Him.

Matthew 11:19

The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

 

[John of Japan]

I hate the taste of alcoholic wine too, but I drink grape juice every day.

The enemies of Jesus accused Him of being a person who drank too much wine and ate too much food. It seems like they were hyper-critical and exaggerating just to cause trouble for Him.

Matthew 11:19

The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

Okay, thanks. But as you have kind of pointed out, we can't trust what the enemies of Jesus said about Him. There is no proof in that passage, I hope you'll agree, that Jesus was not a teetotaler.