The Heavenly Zion and Jerusalem. .....the Church

[DHK]

That's like you schooling me on Calvinism when you're not even in the same solar system of what it really is. I, having come from freewillism, can tell you every weak spot(which are almost innumerable) in that system.

Not even close? I have already been through this with some others here.
So how do you explain Isa.11:6-9?
Will there be a time coming when the lion will lie down with the lamb in peace, and the curse on this earth that is this very earth be lifted and it will return to its natural state such as it was in Eden?

 

[DHK]

The attacks of the dispy/fundies against the amils came across as 'They don't believe the Bible because they take it figuratively' -- 'But we take it literally, and they're wrong and don't believe the Bible'!!!! while I was being taught in college. Makes for a 'good' pot stirring message that misses the mark and garners 'Amen's!!!'. Many seek to preach these types of messages to tickle ears and to present something 'that will preach and sound good'.

'I take the Bible literally' stated in these groups is nothing short of sect pride and short-sightedness. Saying amils don't believe the Bible because they see things as figurative is frankly foolish.

So the five times that the word "thousand" is used in Revelation 20 is literal?

 

[blessedwife318]

Not even close? I have already been through this with some others here.
So how do you explain Isa.11:6-9?
Will there be a time coming when the lion will lie down with the lamb in peace, and the curse on this earth that is this very earth be lifted and it will return to its natural state such as it was in Eden?

Yes there will come a time when all that happens.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[Internet Theologian]

So the five times that the word "thousand" is used in Revelation 20 is literal?

'Literal' or 'figurative'?

 

[DHK]

Not even close. The true Jews, biblically speaking, are both natural born Jews and Gentiles who have been circumcised in their hearts. Both are engrafted in Christ now.

A true Jew is a Jew, period. There is no other meaning to a Jew but a Jew. Israel still exists today, and Paul throughout his lifetime continued to pray for the salvation of the Israelites (Rom.9:1-5: 10:1-3). Paul always made a distinction between the Jew and the Gentile. He went to the Jew first and then to the Gentile. There was a difference between them, and this was 30 years after Pentecost.

Now when a Jew became saved he was no longer a Jew, but a Christian, a believer, a saint in Christ.
When a Gentile got saved he was no longer a pagan but a Christian.
When a Muslim gets saved he is not a "Muslim Christian," but a believer in Christ.
When a Hindu gets saved he is not a "Hindu Christian," but a believer in Christ.

Thus there really is no such thing as Jewish believers. It is an artificial distinction that we use for our own purposes in Bible study. We are all one in Christ. We are not an extension of Israel (supersessionism) nor a replacement of Israel (Replacement Theology), a theology which has its roots in Catholicism.
A Christian is a Christian--a believer in Christ.

 

[DHK]

'Literal' or 'figurative'?

It can't be both. If it is literal, it means a literal "thousand years" and not a year more or less.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

They rejected him as King. He never set up his Kingdom. He was rejected

This is what unbelievers do. They reject the King, They reject His rule. they reject His teaching. They hate election and predestination.
.

So how was there a king without a kingdom in the time of Christ?

He was King Indeed....but he came in very humbly. He had taught the true nature of the Kingdom. and in Mt 5-7 taught how the subjects of the King would live in the Kingdom.
The instruction was written down for all Christians.
The fact that ungodly reprobates rejected Him and His Spiritual Kingdom does not surprise true Christians, wh know that apart from the Spirit indwelling someone and illuminating them. THEY CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM..... which is Spiritual in nature as it manifests itself in this world

He came as a suffering servant.

Yes the Servant of the Lord came to gather in the Elect remnant of Jews and the believing Gentiles

And though some declared him king on one day (Palm Sunday), near the end of that same week (Good Friday

)

They recognized Him as the King. You brush this off.....I do not-

11 Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.

12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13 Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,

15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.

16 These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.

they put him to death as a common criminal.

The unbelievers did.

To declare one as king and anoint him as king and then accept him as king are all different things

.

He had a Heavenly anointing.

The latter two were never accepted by the nation of Israel.

The elect remnant got the message...they praised Him as King.

They accepted him as a criminal instead.

natural men cannot see it.

They hear his voice as far as salvation is concerned. He didn't declare himself as a king over Satan's realm, that is, the world. He said plainly that his kingdom was not of this earth.

I have already rejected your Christ dishonoring idea.
Jesus answered this as I showed you before, but you still reject it;

37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

And is that how people treat a king? Is that how you would treat a king. They were mocking him

.

Man is totally depraved apart from God's grace.
Like the rich man in hell in Lk.16 they know better now.

He was a criminal in their eyes; treated as a criminal, and crucified as a criminal between two other criminals. The three of them were not kings!

Who said the three of them were Kings....it is all about Jesus.

 

[SovereignGrace]

It can't be both. If it is literal, it means a literal "thousand years" and not a year more or less.

Does God only own the cattle on a thousand hills? There are many more hills than only a thousand. I guess he doesn't own those cattle?

Then there are numbers such as 23,000, 500,000, 75,000 &c., slain. I guess those were exact numbers? In battle, exactly 23,000 soldiees died. Revelation is chocked full of figurative language and 1,000 years is a literal 1,000 years. Yah! Riiiiight!!

 

[SovereignGrace]

A true Jew is a Jew, period. There is no other meaning to a Jew but a Jew. Israel still exists today, and Paul throughout his lifetime continued to pray for the salvation of the Israelites (Rom.9:1-5: 10:1-3). Paul always made a distinction between the Jew and the Gentile. He went to the Jew first and then to the Gentile. There was a difference between them, and this was 30 years after Pentecost.

Now when a Jew became saved he was no longer a Jew, but a Christian, a believer, a saint in Christ.
When a Gentile got saved he was no longer a pagan but a Christian.
When a Muslim gets saved he is not a "Muslim Christian," but a believer in Christ.
When a Hindu gets saved he is not a "Hindu Christian," but a believer in Christ.

Thus there really is no such thing as Jewish believers. It is an artificial distinction that we use for our own purposes in Bible study. We are all one in Christ. We are not an extension of Israel (supersessionism) nor a replacement of Israel (Replacement Theology), a theology which has its roots in Catholicism.
A Christian is a Christian--a believer in Christ.

Again....

A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.[Romans 2:28-29]

All believers, both Jews and gentiles, have already had the circumcision of the heart. There is neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek, in God. Both are saved the same way, by grace through faith...both have had the circumcision of the heart made without hands.[Colossians 2:11]

 

[DHK]

Does God only own the cattle on a thousand hills? There are many more hills than only a thousand. I guess he doesn't own those cattle?

Did the Lord limit himself? The statement is true whether he said 100 or 1000 or 100,000. Do you know which thousand he was referring to? Neither do I. Nevertheless, a thousand is still a thousand. It doesn't vary. It is a number of a certain quantity. It cannot change.

Then there are numbers such as 23,000, 500,000, 75,000 &c., slain. I guess those were exact numbers? In battle, exactly 23,000 soldiees died. Revelation is chocked full of figurative language and 1,000 years is a literal 1,000 years. Yah! Riiiiight!!

Do you think God was lying? What do you think those numbers mean?
Have you never read the Book of "Numbers" or Chronicles, etc.

Numbers 2:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying,
2 Every man of the children of Israel shall pitch by his own standard, with the ensign of their father's house: far off about the tabernacle of the congregation shall they pitch.
3 And on the east side toward the rising of the sun shall they of the standard of the camp of Judah pitch throughout their armies: and Nahshon the son of Amminadab shall be captain of the children of Judah.
4 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were threescore and fourteen thousand and six hundred.
5 And those that do pitch next unto him shall be the tribe of Issachar: and Nethaneel the son of Zuar shall be captain of the children of Issachar.
6 And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were fifty and four thousand and four hundred.
7 Then the tribe of Zebulun: and Eliab the son of Helon shall be captain of the children of Zebulun.
8 And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were fifty and seven thousand and four hundred.
9 All that were numbered in the camp of Judah were an hundred thousand and fourscore thousand and six thousand and four hundred, throughout their armies. These shall first set forth.
10 On the south side shall be the standard of the camp of Reuben according to their armies: and the captain of the children of Reuben shall be Elizur the son of Shedeur.
11 And his host, and those that were numbered thereof, were forty and six thousand and five hundred.
Numbers 2:15 And his host, and those that were numbered of them, were forty and five thousand and six hundred and fifty.
Literal or figurative? Records were kept. Numbers do mean something. They have value.

Sometimes very specific numbers:
1 Chronicles 3:4 These six were born unto him in Hebron; and there he reigned seven years and six months: and in Jerusalem he reigned thirty and three years.
But figuratively speaking what would that be?? 50, 100, or a thousand years or so?
Who knows? You destroy the meaning of scripture.

 

[DHK]

Again....

A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.[Romans 2:28-29]

All believers, both Jews and gentiles, have already had the circumcision of the heart. There is neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek, in God. Both are saved the same way, by grace through faith...both have had the circumcision of the heart made without hands.[Colossians 2:11]

Romans 2:28,29 has nothing to do with Col.2:11. That is very poor hermeneutics.
Romans 2:28,29 is speaking about the Jews, not the Christians.

Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
--The entire "conversation" is taken up with an "Israelite" one who calls himself "a Jew." He is not a Christian. This truth is self-evident. And according to the law he is condemned as lost.
Paul addresses the Gentile world in chapter one; the Jewish world in chapter two, and both Jew and Gentile in chapter three demonstrating that we are all under sin, and all in need of a Savior.
"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
But chapter two is clearly addressed to the Jews.

 

[DHK]

DHK

This is what unbelievers do. They reject the King, They reject His rule. they reject His teaching. They hate election and predestination.

And your point is???
.

He was King Indeed....but he came in very humbly. He had taught the true nature of the Kingdom. and in Mt 5-7 taught how the subjects of the King would live in the Kingdom.
The instruction was written down for all Christians.
The fact that ungodly reprobates rejected Him and His Spiritual Kingdom does not surprise true Christians, wh know that apart from the Spirit indwelling someone and illuminating them. THEY CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM..... which is Spiritual in nature as it manifests itself in this world

The entire Sermon on the Mount was "kingdom teaching." It also was specifically addressed to his disciples. Taking those two points into consideration that doesn't mean it doesn't have any application to those outside of the 12 disciples. And it doesn't mean that it doesn't have any application to those outside of the kingdom that would be offered to the Jews at that time, or that is still to come in the future.

Many of you probably still pray "The Lord's Prayer."
"Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done." If so you are still praying that God's kingdom will still be in the future and it is not now present. As the prayer indicates it is still future. And that is how Christ taught the disciples to pray, and us to pray. His kingdom was yet to come, and still is yet to come.

Yes the Servant of the Lord came to gather in the Elect remnant of Jews and the believing Gentiles

What kind of answer is that. It is a response to my statement that Christ came as a "suffering servant" and not as a "King." Thus your answer, in light of my statement, doesn't make much sense.

They recognized Him as the King. You brush this off.....I do not-

11 Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.

12 On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

16 These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.[/quote]
They did not accept him as king. Only some believed on him.
What really happened that day. Ask the Pharisees?
Joh 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

The mass of people following Christ were in a frenzy as the Jews observed. "The whole world had gone after him." It was not that they had all believed. They hadn't. By the time of his ascension there were only 120 in the upper room. That is all.

.

The unbelievers did.

Obviously! And when he was on this earth he wasn't ruling was he? He was treated as a criminal and not a king. You just admitted it. He allowed unbelievers to crucify him as a criminal. A true king doesn't do that. He came as a suffering servant, not as a king.
.

He had a Heavenly anointing.

Indeed, He was anointed by the Father to do the will of the Father, but not to reign as king. He, even now, is not reigning as king. If you say he is you contradict scripture such as:

Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
--His present ministry is intercession.

natural men cannot see it.

And so? The king came and was rejected. His kingdom was rejected as well. There was no kingdom.

I have already rejected your Christ dishonoring idea.
Jesus answered this as I showed you before, but you still reject it;

What you reject is scripture such as 2Cor.4:4; Eph.2:2 1Jn.5:19,
all of which declares that this whole world lies in the control of the "Evil one," that is Satan,
and that Satan is the god of this world.

Secondly, Jesus is in heaven, and his ministry is that of intercession, not that of reigning as a king.
His Kingly reign is yet to come.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Does God only own the cattle on a thousand hills? There are many more hills than only a thousand. I guess he doesn't own those cattle?

Then there are numbers such as 23,000, 500,000, 75,000 &c., slain. I guess those were exact numbers? In battle, exactly 23,000 soldiees died. Revelation is chocked full of figurative language and 1,000 years is a literal 1,000 years. Yah! Riiiiight!!

Hill 1001? Satan's cows. That's the literal translation.

 

[Internet Theologian]

It can't be both. If it is literal, it means a literal "thousand years" and not a year more or less.

Your critical thinking skills are unadvanced. You cannot think outside the box of your sects belief system my friend. Once you are freed from that you will see clearly and it will be a day of rejoicing for you. I pray for you brother just for that end and have a long while.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Your critical thinking skills are unadvanced. You cannot think outside the box of your sects belief system my friend. Once you are freed from that you will see clearly and it will be a day of rejoicing for you. I pray for you brother just for that end and have a long while.

His theology has him straitjacketed.

I have never seen a more anti-Gentile guy in my life. He acts offended when we say true Jews are spiritual Jews, which consist of Jew and Gentiles who have had the circumcision of the heart by God. He appears to act mad that God saves Gentiles, based solely on the fact they are not Jews.

 

[Internet Theologian]

It can't be both. If it is literal, it means a literal "thousand years" and not a year more or less.

Down to the wire so to speak? Like a stopwatch in accuracy, down to the very last second? Or, can it go over a 1000 years by a second or two, or a day, week, or month?

 

[SovereignGrace]

He said to me, "You destroy the meaning of scripture". Yeah...whatever. All I was saying that when numbers are used, are they exactly. Like in 2 Kings 19:35, it says an angel of the Lord killed 185,000 Assryians. All I was asking was is that total exactly 185,000 or could it be 185,002, 184,999, 1850,007?

I am not saying it isn't exactly 185,000 people on the nose that were slayed. Just trying to gender debate.

 

[Internet Theologian]

He said to me, "You destroy the meaning of scripture". Yeah...whatever. All I was saying that when numbers are used, are they exactly. Like in 2 Kings 19:35, it says an angel of the Lord killed 185,000 Assryians. All I was asking was is that total exactly 185,000 or could it be 185,002, 184,999, 1850,007?

I am not saying it isn't exactly 185,000 people on the nose that were slayed. Just trying to gender debate.

But that is the mentality of some circles. They'll get up and preach Sunday and tell how they debated you and go on a tangent on how THEY believe the Bible 'When IT says 1000 years, THAT is what it MEANS and I believe EVERY word of it!!!!!!' 'I take it LITERALLY'. It all garners amen's and excites people.

By the way, it was 184,782 to be exact. Or was it 184,783? I can't remember, it was so long ago!

 

[DHK]

He said to me, "You destroy the meaning of scripture". Yeah...whatever. All I was saying that when numbers are used, are they exactly. Like in 2 Kings 19:35, it says an angel of the Lord killed 185,000 Assryians. All I was asking was is that total exactly 185,000 or could it be 185,002, 184,999, 1850,007?

I am not saying it isn't exactly 185,000 people on the nose that were slayed. Just trying to gender debate.

Alright, if it was different it would be 186,000 or 184,000. Agreed?
God is not that bad of a mathematician.
Having said that, when one thousand is written five times in Rev.20:1-7 what do you think he means?
1,005? How much leeway are you going to Him? 1,005? But you won't do that will you?

 

[DHK]

Your critical thinking skills are unadvanced. You cannot think outside the box of your sects belief system my friend. Once you are freed from that you will see clearly and it will be a day of rejoicing for you. I pray for you brother just for that end and have a long while.

Freed from the way the early Christians believed the Scriptures?
And you want to pray for me so that I will interpret the Scripture in such a way that a heretic like Origen introduced? Why would you do that? Then it was a Catholic Church father that popularized the same method, Augustine of allegorization. Before Origen this method was totally unknown.