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The hidden dangers of Calvinism

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Jerome

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"John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

What does this famous verse teach about fallen man's ability to choose Christ? The answer, simply, is nothing. The argument used by non-Reformed people is that the text teaches that everybody in the world has it in their power to accept or reject Christ. A careful look at the text reveals, however, that it teaches nothing of the kind. What the text teaches is that everyone who believes in Christ will be saved. Whoever does A (believes) will receive B (everlasting life). The text says nothing, absolutely nothing, about who will ever believe. It says nothing about fallen man's natural moral ability. Reformed people and non-Reformed people both heartily agree that all who believe will be saved. They heartily disagree about who has the ability to believe.

Some may reply, "All right. The text does not explicitly teach that fallen men have the ability to choose Christ without being reborn first, but it certainly implies that." I am not willing to grant that the text even implies such a thing.

. . .We conclude that fallen man is still free to choose what he desires, but because his desires are only wicked he lacks the moral ability to come to Christ. As long as he remains in the flesh, unregenerate, he will never choose Christ." ---R. C. Sproul
 

Jerome

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Former Sproul associate Don Kistler sounds eerily similar to Spurgeon's ultra-Calvinistic gadflies, misquoting the exact same scripture in an attempt to prevent children from praying to the Lord:
“the prayer of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord,” and it is a sin to call God their Father when He is not their Father. It is a lie."
 
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Salamander

New Member
Jerome said:
"John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

What does this famous verse teach about fallen man's ability to choose Christ? The answer, simply, is nothing. The argument used by non-Reformed people is that the text teaches that everybody in the world has it in their power to accept or reject Christ. A careful look at the text reveals, however, that it teaches nothing of the kind. What the text teaches is that everyone who believes in Christ will be saved. Whoever does A (believes) will receive B (everlasting life). The text says nothing, absolutely nothing, about who will ever believe. It says nothing about fallen man's natural moral ability. Reformed people and non-Reformed people both heartily agree that all who believe will be saved. They heartily disagree about who has the ability to believe.

Some may reply, "All right. The text does not explicitly teach that fallen men have the ability to choose Christ without being reborn first, but it certainly implies that." I am not willing to grant that the text even implies such a thing.

. . .We conclude that fallen man is still free to choose what he desires, but because his desires are only wicked he lacks the moral ability to come to Christ. As long as he remains in the flesh, unregenerate, he will never choose Christ." ---R. C. Sproul
Nope, the text teaches that whosoever believeth, not believes.

The devils believe and tremble, devils can't get saved.

God chose the foolishness of preaching to SAVE them which believe.
 

Salamander

New Member
stilllearning said:
Hi Salamander

You said.........


Very well put.

Matthew 11:28
“Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.”
Yep, the calvinists forget the invitation for all that are heavy laden to come to Jesus includes everyone that is a sinner.
 

webdog

Active Member
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"John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

What does this famous verse teach about fallen man's ability to choose Christ? The answer, simply, is nothing.
Believing is not a choice? It is forced?
The argument used by non-Reformed people is that the text teaches that everybody in the world has it in their power to accept or reject Christ.
Have you read Romans 1?
A careful look at the text reveals, however, that it teaches nothing of the kind. What the text teaches is that everyone who believes in Christ will be saved. Whoever does A (believes) will receive B (everlasting life). The text says nothing, absolutely nothing, about who will ever believe. It says nothing about fallen man's natural moral ability. Reformed people and non-Reformed people both heartily agree that all who believe will be saved. They heartily disagree about who has the ability to believe.
This is circular reasoning. If I walk into a building and say "whoever comes outside will get $100" of course only those who come outside will get the $100! This does not mean "whoever" or "whosoever" couldn't receive the cash!
 

Salamander

New Member
Pastor Larry said:
It teaches that the non-elect reject Christ. So both sides are covered. There is no dilemma here.
Not quite, the non-elect could have chosen Christ and remain that way until they choose Christ. You seem to damn them for eternity and allow them no chance to choose Christ.

The danger here is you place yourself on the Throne.

Where is this? Hopefully you can tell me. I have asked for years for people to show me this verse, but so far, no one has been able to demonstrate this from Scripture. So please, tell me where the Bible teaches that those who choose Christ become elect.
Ephesians 1:4 does a pretty good job if you believe the Bible and not a man-made doctrine.

Please tell us how anyone was ever holy and blameless before Him in love that was yet to choose Christ???

The text shows only those who are in him can be seen that way, so to say the elect are the chosen is gross error in the light/darkness that only the elect will be saved and the non-elect can never be saved.

That's not what Romans 9 says. It says that the choice was made before the twins before, before they had done good or bad. If you disagree, then you are disagreeing with God.
You're twisting Scripture, again.

This passage shows the Omniscience of God, not His choosing Jacob over Esau.

Jacob was chosen and became elect due to his repentence and his name and blessing was changed. Esau sold his birthright to his flesh and thought his position as firstborn held precedence over repentence. Jews who reject Christ are God's chosen people, but this passage teaches against their being born to their father Abraham, and they need to be born again to the Father. It shows us all equally under the power of sin unto death and the need for following the actions of the trickster in crying out to the Lord for salvation!:godisgood:

It explicitly speaks against birthright as a means of salvation.

Or do you care to argue against solid Bible doctrine?:tonofbricks:
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
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Yep, the calvinists forget the invitation for all that are heavy laden to come to Jesus includes everyone that is a sinner.
As a Calvinist, I can assert that I haven't forgotten this at all. All sinners are not only invited to come; they are commanded to come. And to fail to come is disobedience to the truth.

Nope, the text teaches that whosoever believeth, not believes.
This isn't a distinction at all. The old way of saying "believes" is "believeth" in the context.

The devils believe and tremble, devils can't get saved.
Right, for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that their faith is not submissive faith, or saving faith.

God chose the foolishness of preaching to SAVE them which believe.
Yes indeed. It is a wonderful message by which God saves people. It is utterly humiliating for us to recognize that we are completely without hope unless God unilaterally and sovereignly moves in us to draw us to faith and salvation. This is why Calvinist soteriology is most biblical ... it removes any basis for human pride, and exalts only God.
 

Pastor Larry

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This is circular reasoning. If I walk into a building and say "whoever comes outside will get $100" of course only those who come outside will get the $100! This does not mean "whoever" or "whosoever" couldn't receive the cash!
And this is exactly the point. When God says, "Whosoever believes will be saved," only those who believe will be saved. It does not mean that "whoever" or "whosoever" couldn't be saved. They can't be saved because they won't believe. The message is foolishness to them.
 

J.D.

Active Member
Site Supporter
Jerome said:
"John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

What does this famous verse teach about fallen man's ability to choose Christ? The answer, simply, is nothing. The argument used by non-Reformed people is that the text teaches that everybody in the world has it in their power to accept or reject Christ. A careful look at the text reveals, however, that it teaches nothing of the kind. What the text teaches is that everyone who believes in Christ will be saved. Whoever does A (believes) will receive B (everlasting life). The text says nothing, absolutely nothing, about who will ever believe. It says nothing about fallen man's natural moral ability. Reformed people and non-Reformed people both heartily agree that all who believe will be saved. They heartily disagree about who has the ability to believe.

Some may reply, "All right. The text does not explicitly teach that fallen men have the ability to choose Christ without being reborn first, but it certainly implies that." I am not willing to grant that the text even implies such a thing.

. . .We conclude that fallen man is still free to choose what he desires, but because his desires are only wicked he lacks the moral ability to come to Christ. As long as he remains in the flesh, unregenerate, he will never choose Christ." ---R. C. Sproul
Nice post Jerome. And I noticed that the double-post bug bit you.
 

psalms109:31

Active Member
Whosoever believes

It is foolishness to those who are perishing (the wise and the learn) who try to find away around the truth that God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

They have the key to knowledge and they themselves did not enter and they are hindering those from entering

1 Corinthians 1:18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."[Isaiah 29:14 ]

What is amazing to me How ppl lean on their own understanding than just trusting in the Lord and His word.
 
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Pastor Larry

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That is virtually incoherent, Psalms. You should proof read more closely to help us to understand what you are trying to say.
 

HankD

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J.D. said:
Thanks brother for your love and blessings, but the C v A issue doesn't have anything to do with who follows which favorite leader. Something far greater is at stake. To the typical non-C, the justice of God is at stake, and to the typical C, the omnipotent glory of God is at stake. For some people, their whole image of God crumbles if he does not love all people equally, even though the Bible plainly declares that he prefers some over others for no reason in the one preferred.
OK.

My objection is to what the onlookers see when they witness the very same thing here on the BB that was going on in the Corinthian Church. I guess (on the bright side) they see that we are human.

Ideally we should be able to discuss/debate these issues without the poor witness of arguments and name calling.

I am and have been guilty, its an easy pit to fall into.

HankD
 
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J.D.

Active Member
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HankD said:
OK.

My objection is to what the onlookers see when they witness the very same thing here on the BB that was going on in the Corinthian Church. I guess (on the bright side) they see that we are human.

Ideally we should be able to discuss/debate these issues without the poor witness of arguments and name calling.

I am and have been guilty, its an easy pit to fall into.

HankD
I agree and as I have been guilty, I am trying to be more civil. I am concerned about the perceptions of onlookers up to a point, but there's only so much that can be done about it. Some people are going to find differences between Christians as some kind of proof of their own skepticism, no matter how civil the debate is. Quite frankly, I don't like to debate with civility. By nature I'm a bare-knuckles type of guy, both literally and figuratively.

My co-workers used to call me the "Killer Bee" because I would debate them with such vigor. Civlility is a discipline for me, and I envy those that can maintain a calm demeanor no matter what insult is being hurled at them.
 

Salamander

New Member
Pastor Larry said:
As a Calvinist, I can assert that I haven't forgotten this at all. All sinners are not only invited to come; they are commanded to come. And to fail to come is disobedience to the truth.
Now you're stuck with explaining the differences between willful disobedience and disobedience due to ignorance.

This isn't a distinction at all. The old way of saying "believes" is "believeth" in the context.
Not exactly, take the context: Nicodemus already knew that Jesus came from God and did miracles only God could do, he just hadn't yet realized that Jesus is God and what Jesus would do for him that no other man could do.

You're taking it as a general comment when it was directed to Nicodemus personally.

Right, for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that their faith is not submissive faith, or saving faith.
Interesting, I thought all calvinists say that those who aren't "elect" have NO faith? But these devils believe and tremble knowing their destruction is at hand, they are the ones who left their first estate.

The essence of belief is not a cognitive ability but a complete trusting in the finished workof Calvary as to wholeheartedly cast onesself on Christ.

Yes indeed. It is a wonderful message by which God saves people. It is utterly humiliating for us to recognize that we are completely without hope unless God unilaterally and sovereignly moves in us to draw us to faith and salvation. This is why Calvinist soteriology is most biblical ... it removes any basis for human pride, and exalts only God.
The problem is you're trying to completely write off the will of man having to be broken to come to saving knowledge. Inadvertantly you would be in danger of writing off Holy Ghost intervention to bring a pricking of the heart so a man could see his need and trust Jesus.

Man exalts himself by foolish pride and ultimately places himself above the throne of God. Until he is brought under conviction due to preaching against sin and according to salvation through Christ no man could see the need and there would but absolutely NO need for missions.

Another danger of calvinism exposed.

God isn't exalted by His programming people to be saved, but rather when a man's will has been turned over to the Lord and away from sin.

Jesus said he had finished the work in John 17 and glorified the Father. Any man who places trust in the work of Christ ultimtely glorifies the Father. This incorporates that man's will, though now broken, yet in God's hands and under His command.

If this weren't the case you could never even mentioned man being brought under subjection. Subjection requires submissiveness of the will.:sleeping_2:
 

annsni

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Salamander said:
Interesting, I thought all calvinists say that those who aren't "elect" have NO faith? But these devils believe and tremble knowing their destruction is at hand, they are the ones who left their first estate.

There's believe then there's a belief based on faith. Two different entities. Satan and the demons believe in God but do not have a belief that their faith in Him will save them.

The essence of belief is not a cognitive ability but a complete trusting in the finished workof Calvary as to wholeheartedly cast onesself on Christ.

That's the difference between belief IN and believing ON. I can believe that there is a Jesus but until I believe ON Him for my salvation, it's not worth anything.

The problem is you're trying to completely write off the will of man having to be broken to come to saving knowledge. Inadvertantly you would be in danger of writing off Holy Ghost intervention to bring a pricking of the heart so a man could see his need and trust Jesus.

Huh? It is not in man's ability to find Christ. The Father must make him able to find Christ.

Man exalts himself by foolish pride and ultimately places himself above the throne of God. Until he is brought under conviction due to preaching against sin and according to salvation through Christ no man could see the need and there would but absolutely NO need for missions.

Scripture tells us that men will hear through preaching. God tells us to preach. Calvinism is far from exalting man above the throne of God - in fact it humbles man so much that there is no way for him to reach the throne of God at all.

Another danger of calvinism exposed.

No it's not.

God isn't exalted by His programming people to be saved, but rather when a man's will has been turned over to the Lord and away from sin.

Have you read Romans 9? God is absolutely exalted by His sovereign choice. Scripture says so.

Jesus said he had finished the work in John 17 and glorified the Father. Any man who places trust in the work of Christ ultimtely glorifies the Father. This incorporates that man's will, though now broken, yet in God's hands and under His command.

And how has man's sinful will able to find Christ without first being drawn? Of course all of those who become a child of God glorifies the Father - but it's not that man's will is more sovereign than God's.

If this weren't the case you could never even mentioned man being brought under subjection. Subjection requires submissiveness of the will.:sleeping_2:

And man's will IS brought under submission to the Lord when He's saved.

I don't think you fully understand the doctrine of grace.
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
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Salamander said:
Now you're stuck with explaining the differences between willful disobedience and disobedience due to ignorance.
What am I stuck with? Ultimately, the reason for disobedience is irrelevant.

Not exactly, take the context: Nicodemus already knew that Jesus came from God and did miracles only God could do, he just hadn't yet realized that Jesus is God and what Jesus would do for him that no other man could do.

You're taking it as a general comment when it was directed to Nicodemus personally.
No, I am taking it as a general statement of truth. Your distinction is absurd, and has no biblical basis whatsoever.

Interesting, I thought all calvinists say that those who aren't "elect" have NO faith?
Goes to show you have no idea what you are talking about. Everyone has faith. Some have saving faith and others do not.

The essence of belief is not a cognitive ability but a complete trusting in the finished workof Calvary as to wholeheartedly cast onesself on Christ.
Yes, indeed.

The problem is you're trying to completely write off the will of man having to be broken to come to saving knowledge.
No, I am not. You aren't reading closely.

Inadvertantly you would be in danger of writing off Holy Ghost intervention to bring a pricking of the heart so a man could see his need and trust Jesus.
Nope, I think "pricking" is way too understated for what the Bible says.

Man exalts himself by foolish pride and ultimately places himself above the throne of God. Until he is brought under conviction due to preaching against sin and according to salvation through Christ no man could see the need and there would but absolutely NO need for missions.
I agree until your last phrase, which seems to be missing something. The reason for missions is to preach the word so that man will see his need.

God isn't exalted by His programming people to be saved, but rather when a man's will has been turned over to the Lord and away from sin.
Yes, excellently said.

Jesus said he had finished the work in John 17 and glorified the Father. Any man who places trust in the work of Christ ultimtely glorifies the Father. This incorporates that man's will, though now broken, yet in God's hands and under His command.
Again, well said.

If this weren't the case you could never even mentioned man being brought under subjection. Subjection requires submissiveness of the will.
Yes, indeed.

As a side note, I am always humored by things like this when people pretend they are refuting Calvinism but state exactly what Calvinism espouses. Kind of goes to show what I have long said, that most people have no idea what they are talking about because 1) they do not know the Bible, and 2) they do not understand Calvinism.
 

Pastor Larry

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annsni said:
There's believe then there's a belief based on faith. Two different entities.
This is not a biblical distinction. The word group pistis/pisteuo as a verb is translated believe and as a noun is translated faith.

That's the difference between belief IN and believing ON.
The NT does not make this distinction. The prepositions used are not consistent in the NT, showing that there is more fluidity in them than statements like this make clear.
 

Pastor Larry

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Irrelevant? Wow...
Yes, when it comes to separation from God for disobedience, the reason is irrelevant. You are still separated from God for disobedience. Why is that shocking to you?

The wages of sin is death. It doesn't discriminate between causes of sin, or types of sin. The good news is that Jesus died for it all.
 
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