The hidden dangers of Calvinism

[annsni]

S & G was destroyed because there were not even 10 righeous people found, (only Lot and his family) so you can conclude they were destroyed and are indeed lost. Fact is, people who were not of the "elect" had the opportunity to be just that according to Christ.

I don't know if I'm slow today but I still don't see how you get destroying Sodom and Gomorrah tying into the elect/non-elect.

 

[Jarthur001]

The underlined above is the only way to see if a particular doctrine is true. The problem is that Calvinist claim to have proved there doctrine true but the truth is they haven't. What comes as proof is a small part of scripture taken out of context and a lot of that persons interpretation of what that scripture means. More often than not what is claimed isn't even what the particular scripture is about in the first place. What I believe of scripture isn't my interpretation but is the God given understanding I have received from above. Anyone can have the same understanding all they have to do is ask God for it. Then stop trying to arrive at your own interpretation but depend entirely on God for the understanding of it.
As far as feeling it is wrong. I have to say it isn't a feeling but according to my Bible is established fact.
MB

Blanket statement like this only proves my point. Such as is seen with this thread from the beginning. Yet when we get into the details and list out the "dangers" or as you have claimed. the verses pulled from context, we find NOTHING!!!

What would help is for you to post a verse that is pulled from context. Then we can look at it and see about the so called established fact.

 

[webdog]

I don't know if I'm slow today but I still don't see how you get destroying Sodom and Gomorrah tying into the elect/non-elect.

God said He would destroy S & G if there were not 10 righteous people found. Only Lot and his wife were found to be righteous (less than 10). The others in the city that were destroyed were not righteous, i.e., not "elect".

Jesus said these non righteous, non elect people could have...no, would have repented. Calvinism teaches only the elect can truly repent. The non righteous, non elect of Sodom could have repented.

 

[stilllearning]

Hi Tom Butler

I really appreciate your post about Matthew 11:

Here is the passage.........

Matthew 11:20-24
V.20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
V.21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
V.22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
V.23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
V.24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Did you notice the repeated point the Lord was making........
“But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.”

The point being made is, how more judgement will be poured out on those, who were given more light.

Luke 12:48
“But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.”

--------------------------------------------------
It doesn’t say that no works were done in “Tyre and Sidon and Sodom”, but just that not as many works were done in other places.

While everyone is going to receive “some light”, some will receive even greater light.
(But everyone will have to make there own decision!)



Thanks again for the heads up about this passage.

 

[annsni]

God said He would destroy S & G if there were not 10 righteous people found. Only Lot and his wife were found to be righteous (less than 10). The others in the city that were destroyed were not righteous, i.e., not "elect".

Jesus said these non righteous, non elect people could have...no, would have repented. Calvinism teaches only the elect can truly repent. The non righteous, non elect of Sodom could have repented.

No - He's saying that even the evil in those depraved cities would have repented of their evil ways if God chose to reveal Himself to them. But He CHOSE not to. Didn't He?

 

[MB]

Blanket statement like this only proves my point. Such as is seen with this thread from the beginning. Yet when we get into the details and list out the "dangers" or as you have claimed. the verses pulled from context, we find NOTHING!!!

What would help is for you to post a verse that is pulled from context. Then we can look at it and see about the so called established fact.

Webdog made a good point here is another The people of Ninevah were not elect yet they repented and believed God.

Rom 3:10-18 used to prove the inability of man.
Rom 9:13 used to prove particular election to Salvation when it has nothing to do with election to Salvation.
Eph 1:4 used to prove predestination from before the foundation of the world. Over looking "IN HIM" that we are predestined in.
That should get you started and I'll come back with a lot more.

MB

 

[Jarthur001]

Webdog made a good point here is another The people of Ninevah were not elect yet they repented and believed God.

Rom 3:10-18 used to prove the inability of man.
Rom 9:13 used to prove particular election to Salvation when it has nothing to do with election to Salvation.
Eph 1:4 used to prove predestination from before the foundation of the world. Over looking "IN HIM" that we are predestined in.
That should get you started and I'll come back with a lot more.

MB

Is this your proof of the so called "established fact"??

Webdog made a bad statement, therefore made no point.

All saints are elect of God. We see this in the story.

Who's idea was it to go to the Ninevah???

Let me help you with the answer.

The answer is one word.
The word has 3 letters.
The 1st letter is "G"
Make sure put a capital letter in the "G".

That should help you.

Rom 3:10-18 used to prove the inability of man.

Romans 3: 10-18

10As it is written, None is righteous, just and truthful and upright and conscientious, no, not one.

11No one understands [no one intelligently discerns or comprehends]; no one seeks out God.

12All have turned aside; together they have gone wrong and have become unprofitable and worthless; no one does right, not even one!

13Their throat is a yawning grave; they use their tongues to deceive (to mislead and to deal treacherously). The venom of asps is beneath their lips.

14Their mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.

15Their feet are swift to shed blood.

16Destruction [as it dashes them to pieces] and misery mark their ways.

17And they have no experience of the way of peace [they know nothing about peace, for a peaceful way they do not even recognize].

18There is no [reverential] fear of God before their eyes.

I'm not sure Calvinist use this to prove the inability of man. It proves the fallen state of man.

Inability of man however is shown in other passage.

Rom 9:13 used to prove particular election to Salvation when it has nothing to do with election to Salvation

Not sure we use just verse 13.

Starting with 11 - 23 are all used to show context.

11And the children were yet unborn and had so far done nothing either good or evil. Even so, in order further to carry out God's purpose of selection (election, choice), which depends not on works or what men can do, but on Him Who calls [them],

12It was said to her that the elder [son] should serve the younger [son].

13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in [a]relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob).

14What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God's part? Certainly not!

15For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion.

16So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.]

17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over.

18So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills.

19You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will?

20But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?(H)

21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?

22What if God, although fully intending to show [the awfulness of] His wrath and to make known His power and authority, has tolerated with much patience the vessels (objects) of [His] anger which are ripe for destruction?(I)

23And [what if] He thus purposes to make known and show the wealth of His glory in [dealing with] the vessels (objects) of His mercy which He has prepared beforehand for glory,

What in more detail do you disagree with?

ADDED...

14What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God's part? Certainly not!

For starters..please focus on one verse. What meaning should we attach to this passage to cause Paul to write this verse 14??

Eph 1:4 used to prove predestination from before the foundation of the world. Over looking "IN HIM" that we are predestined in.

This statement is not true. I don't overlook "in Him"...which non-calvinist always put in quotes like it helps their case.

Do you understand the federal headship of Christ? This is what this title is talking about. We once were "in Adam"...the old race. Now we are "in Christ"...the new race.

Now what we disagree on, is what places in Christ? To answer that we can look at what places us in Adam.

Did you choose to be placed in Adam?

 

[Tom Butler]

Hi Tom Butler

I really appreciate your post about Matthew 11:


Did you notice the repeated point the Lord was making........
“But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.”

The point being made is, how more judgement will be poured out on those, who were given more light.

--------------------------------------------------
It doesn’t say that no works were done in “Tyre and Sidon and Sodom”, but just that not as many works were done in other places.

While everyone is going to receive “some light”, some will receive even greater light.
(But everyone will have to make there own decision!)

Thanks again for the heads up about this passage.

I don't pretend to have all the answers about Matthew 11:20 ff. I don't know howto interpret the verse you quoted about Sodom in v.25. Nor do I know why Jesus thanked the Father for hiding the truth from one group of people and revealing it to another, and that the Father considered it good to do so.

This seems to suggest that "these things" hidden in v. 25, refer back to Tyre, Sideon and Sodom. And, I dont know why Jesus said they would have repented had they heard of the mighty works, yet did not give them that opportunity.

 

[webdog]

No - He's saying that even the evil in those depraved cities would have repented of their evil ways if God chose to reveal Himself to them. But He CHOSE not to. Didn't He?

I don't get that from that passage at all that He chose not to reveal Himself to them. Romans 1 states clearly that He is revealed to all men, and all men either accept or reject the Truth. What we do see from that passage is Christ saying that a group of people who are NOT elect, who were not chosen for salvation before the beginning of the world like calvinism teaches, could have repented!

 

[webdog]

Webdog made a bad statement, therefore made no point.

And what would that be?

 

[Pastor Larry]

What we do see from that passage is Christ saying that a group of people who are NOT elect, who were not chosen for salvation before the beginning of the world like calvinism teaches, could have repented!

Read carefully: "If" and "would." The works were not there, and therefore they did not repent.

The bigger question is this: If God wants all men to be saved, why didn't he do these miracles in Tyre and Sidon so that they would repent?

 

[MB]

Is this your proof of the so called "established fact"??

Webdog made a bad statement, therefore made no point.

All saints are elect of God. We see this in the story.

Who's idea was it to go to the Ninevah???

It was God's but Jonah resisted when according to Calvinism he wasn't able to resist God.

Let me help you with the answer.

The answer is one word.
The word has 3 letters.
The 1st letter is "G"
Make sure put a capital letter in the "G".

That should help you.

take a deep breath Jauthur you'll be alright.

Romans 3: 10-18
I'm not sure Calvinist use this to prove the inability of man. It proves the fallen state of man.

Inability of man however is shown in other passage.

Really what passage would that be? Rom 3:10-18 is always shown to support for the disability of man.

Not sure we use just verse 13.

Starting with 11 - 23 are all used to show context.





What in more detail do you disagree with?

I do not disagree with the Bible nor do I try to make it seem to say something it doesn't. That whole passage is about the choosing for a nation not election to Salvation. As far as verse 14 Of course God is righteous. As far as the choosing of a nation of course it was particular. but that doesn't mean every choosing is particular. Christ chose to die for the whole world and Calvinist on this board want to change the meaning of the word "world", "All", and "WHOSOEVER".

This statement is not true. I don't overlook "in Him"...which non-calvinist always put in quotes like it helps their case.

Truthfully it blows your position away.

Do you understand the federal headship of Christ? This is what this title is talking about. We once were "in Adam"...the old race. Now we are "in Christ"...the new race.

Yes but we aren't in Christ as long as we do not believe and Calvinism places regeneration before faith, instead of through it. as in Eph 2:8 a complete denial of scripture.

Now what we disagree on, is what places in Christ? To answer that we can look at what places us in Adam.

Did you choose to be placed in Adam?

No. However in Adam we did make the choice to sin because, we were all in Adam. He was the creation we are the procreation. All including Adam was created with a propensity for sin other wise Adam would not have sinned.
It is my choice to sin and it is my choice to rebel in any way I choose. God has allowed man this boundry. It's called freewill..
It's true man doesn't choose God but man can always choose to rebel.

MB

 

[Salamander]

Of course. I quoted the Bible and explained it, and I want others to believe it.

All you have done is attempt to explain what calvinism teaches vs what the Bible teaches about salvation.

Yes. You agree with Calvinism on that.

No, only calvinism agrees with that point as I also agree with the Bible.

That is untrue.

That is untrue.

Both statements are true.

Yes, this is the heart of the gospel and therefore the heart of Calvinism. Your own thoughts do not measure up. You are still trying to use man's wisdom to explain it.

man's wisdom is compiled up into a testimony where salvation is concerned. It agrees with Scripture and is the most powerful tool in the Christian's hand to tell others about Christ.:godisgood:

You seem to imply a two-hearted belief system: one is the Gospel to every creature so men might be saved / the very essence of the will of God. The other is what we have witnessed is the ideal of calvinism that God chose only to save those he created for the purpose of saving and all others never had the chance to have their will broken. These "saved / created to be saved" is what you refer to as the "elect". The Bible NEVER refers to anyone as elect until they are addressed as being part of the Body/ the Church/ saved.

Jacob was called, Israel chosen. Jacob was the subplanter, after interaction of the Spirit he became the Chosen of the Lord/ the Son of Promise.

The Bible is very clear in this precept. Calvinism teaches against this very precept.

Calvinism fogs the understanding and leaves men at the mercy of the "scholars"

FOUL! Another danger of calvinism exposed!

Yes it is, and that is why Calvinism teaches it.

Yes, it does teach that, but then goes on to say only the elect can get saved.

Writing out the will of man in any decision about salvation and serving the Lord isn't a far stretch of the imagination.

So you are saying that I don't know my Lord?

No, I said that any saved man has the evidence before him that all Scripture is in harmony, yet calvinism is NOT in harmony with all Scripture!

The problem here is twice now you have alluded to a supposition as if I have broken BB rules.

If you cannot do any better than make accusations from the convoluting of what I say then it might be best you stay out of the kitchen.

Or perhaps you are indicating that you don't know Calvinism and the Scriptures.

OK, which is it now? Sounds like you're stabbing in the dark for a slimey morsel that just isn't there!

 

[Salamander]

Read carefully: "If" and "would." The works were not there, and therefore they did not repent.

The bigger question is this: If God wants all men to be saved, why didn't he do these miracles in Tyre and Sidon so that they would repent?

Simply because they killed all the prophets sent unto them and God had enough of their wickedness and destroyed them!

God had witnesses in all cities of Sodoma and Gomorrah, yet their wickednesses brought on the judgement of God.

All those had their chance, yet they refused to repent.

Repenetence is necessary for election, yet those who refuse cannot be elect until they DO repent! These did not and passed God's deadline.:godisgood:

 

[Salamander]

MB said,

Yes but we aren't in Christ as long as we do not believe and Calvinism places regeneration before faith, instead of through it. as in Eph 2:8 a complete denial of scripture.

Exactly what I've been telling calvinists for years!:thumbsup:

 

[Tom Butler]

I think what's even more fascinating is the fact Christ said people who were not of the "elect" could have been saved. He basically refuted predestination as described by calvinists.

According to the passage, Jesus said Tyre and Sidon would have repented had they seen the same mighty works of Chorazin and Bethsaida. That's the great mystery to me. If that's the case, why did not Jesus go there, or send somoe of his disciples? I simply don't know the answers.

What I do see here is that Jesus made a connection between the mighty works and repentance. Paul made a similar connection in Romans 10, when he asked, how shall they call on him of whom they've not heard, and how can they hear without a preacher?

I wish I knew why no one went to Tyre and Sidon so they would repent; and I don't know why God sent no prophet to Sodom to warn them. The result was the same--they died in their sins.

 

[Pastor Larry]

All you have done is attempt to explain what calvinism teaches vs what the Bible teaches about salvation.

Vs? What Calvinism teaches about salvation is what the Bible teaches.

Both statements are true.

No, they're not.

man's wisdom is compiled up into a testimony where salvation is concerned. It agrees with Scripture and is the most powerful tool in the Christian's hand to tell others about Christ

Really? Man's testimony is the most powerful tool? Too bad Paul didn't know that. He said the gospel was the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes. He said nothing about your testimony (or mine) being the most powerful.

You seem to imply a two-hearted belief system: one is the Gospel to every creature so men might be saved / the very essence of the will of God. The other is what we have witnessed is the ideal of calvinism that God chose only to save those he created for the purpose of saving and all others never had the chance to have their will broken. These "saved / created to be saved" is what you refer to as the "elect".

You seem not to read very well. I have implied nothing of the sort. The Bible teaches that all men are sinners deserving of hell, and willfully going there. The Bible teaches that God chooses some to save them. The Bible (not me) calls them the elect.

The Bible NEVER refers to anyone as elect until they are addressed as being part of the Body/ the Church/ saved.

Well, 2 Tim 2:10 is a plain and direct refutation of this. There we see elect who are not yet saved.

Calvinism fogs the understanding and leaves men at the mercy of the "scholars"

Nonsense.

Yes, it does teach that, but then goes on to say only the elect can get saved.

Can you show any non-elect person getting saved?

No, I said that any saved man has the evidence before him that all Scripture is in harmony, yet calvinism is NOT in harmony with all Scripture!

Really? Can you show me a passage of Scripture that Calvinism is out of harmony with? (I hope so, because I have asked before and no one ever seems to be able to give one).

If you cannot do any better than make accusations from the convoluting of what I say then it might be best you stay out of the kitchen.

I simply read what you said.

Sounds like you're stabbing in the dark for a slimey morsel that just isn't there!

I believe you do not understand either the Scriptures or Calvinism.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Simply because they killed all the prophets sent unto them and God had enough of their wickedness and destroyed them!

hmmmm ... you got verses for this? Because it sounds to me like God admitted he didn't do everything he could have to secure their repentance.

Repenetence is necessary for election,

You got a verse for this to? Can you show us one place in Scripture where election is predicated on repentance

 

[Tom Butler]

The people of Ninevah were not elect yet they repented and believed God.

Calvinists and most non-Calvinists agree that all the elect from eternity will be saved in time. And none of those who are not elect will be saved.

Thus, both sides will hold that those saved in the Nineveh revival were those whom God had chosen. We'll disagree about the ground of the election, but agree on the objects.

Where did you come up with the view that the people of Nineveh were non-elect but were saved in spite of it?

 

[gb93433]

Vs? What Calvinism teaches about salvation is what the Bible teaches.

If they both teach exactly the same things then one of the two is not necessary.