The high cost of a believer rejecting Jesus Christ

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
I know ... and you proved my point, with all of your verses. The point of Scripture is that the atonement is not because of the value of man, but because of his inability to do it for himself. God atoned for sin in order to pursue his own glory.

Oh how you twist and turn! </font>[/QUOTE]Feel free to demonstrate how. You have made this accusation several times, but so far, have been unwilling to provide any scriptural evidence of it.

Why haven't you used Scripture to support your idea that God redeemed man because of his value? I can't find that anywhere, and so far, you haven't shown us.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Larry,
You have ignored others more skilled in doing so than I, so there is little prospect that you will recognize yourself in what I post from these threads that you have said that actually twist scripture from its true meaning to what you want it to mean.

I am convinced that you either do not understand the scripture or you are so steeped in calvins doctrines that you cannot see the truth before your very eyes.

 

[Pastor Larry]

YOu are convinced wrongly. I have yet to see anyone show a place where I have twisted Scripture. You certainly haven't even offered a place. Why not? You made the accusation. You should probably either back it up, or retract it. It doesn't seem to me to make a lot of sense to talk a good game, and then back away when someone takes you up on it.

I haven't ignored anyone that I know of. I may have not seen something, but I haven't ignored it.

I have shown places where you have misused Scripture and twisted the meaning. I didn't back away from that challenge. I have shown clear evidence on many occasions that you have misused Scripture.

So, I encourage you to either back up your statement so we can discuss it, or retract it. I don't care which option you choose, but you should take one or the other.

And you still haven't defended your statement that God saves us because of our value. Why not?

 

[icthus]

There are some non-calvinists on this thread that are placing far too much emphasis on the "human" in Salvation, and not enough on the Work of the Holy Spirit.

I am sure you can work out who they are.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Larry, here is one example of how you twist the truth of scripture to suit your own personal belief system.

The Sacrifice of Christ was not an indication of how valuable we are. It is an indication of how worthless we are. We could do nothing, absolutely nothing. That is why Christ had to come. Eph 1 makes clear that salvation was about God's worth and God's glory, not man's.

The fact that God had to send someone to save us means we had nothing worthy in us.

No Larry it does not mean that at all. That in fact is a twisted, convoluted way of looking at our relationship with God. God shows us how much he loves us by sending His own son to redeem us. If we were worthless as you have twisted the scriptures to say, then God would not have sent his own son, He himself would have delivered upon us fire and brimstone like he did on Sodom and Gomorrah, for their sins were a strong stench in God's nostrils.

I have read Ephesians 1 through several times in a deliberate attempt to discover what you see there, and I cannot find it Ephesians 1 that our salvation is all about God's worth and God's Glory. Yes, it does say this

May the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, give you a spirit of wisdom and perception of what is revealed, to bring you to full knowledge of him.

Is this what you are referring to as being God's purpose for salvation?

Is your declaration not an attempt to twist the truth contained in Ephesians 1?

I said,

Larry, you are equating ability with value!

Now I'll explain why I said that.
I am connecting your first two sentences where in the first you deny that the Christ's atonement for sin has anything to do with how God "feels" about us, then in the second you are saying that the Christ's death is indeed an indication of how powerless we are that we cannot save ourselves from God's imposed death penalty for sin! That is nothing less than a deliberate twist of the meaning of scripture. In creating man, God did not input into man the power to save himself from the penalty of sin, that would have been pure foolishness on God's part, therefore such power is not inherent to man. To keep from sinning is inherent to man and it is called obedience, that is why disobedience is sin. When Adam disobeyed God it was sin, and because Adam did sin God's previously imposed penalty for sin, death, was imposed on mankind.

God does value us enough to spend His precious Son's life to redeem us. We should respect that and likewise value ourselves enough to want to be saved through having faith in God. Again the death of Christ in our stead is the most magnanimous gesture by God the Father that indicates to us that we are not worthless nothings! We are in truth worth enough to God for him to send His only begotten son to save us from the penalty of sin.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by icthus:
There are some non-calvinists on this thread that are placing far too much emphasis on the "human" in Salvation, and not enough on the Work of the Holy Spirit.

I am sure you can work out who they are.

Doin' a little shadow boxing Icthus?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The fact that God had to send someone to save us means we had nothing worthy in us.

No Larry it does not mean that at all. That in fact is a twisted, convoluted way of looking at our relationship with God.</font>[/QUOTE]Then show us this with Scripture, not your own opinion. The Bible says that we are helpless, unprofitable, wicked, sinful people. How much is that worth?

God shows us how much he loves us by sending His own son to redeem us.

I agree with that.

If we were worthless as you have twisted the scriptures to say, then God would not have sent his own son, He himself would have delivered upon us fire and brimstone like he did on Sodom and Gomorrah, for their sins were a strong stench in God's nostrils.

So we are worth something but the people in Sodom and Gomorrah were not? The Bible says that we all deserve what they got. Yet God showed us mercy. And on those who do not believe, they will have fire and brimstone on them for all eternity. What are they worth?

And what Scripture do you base your position on? I keep asking that and you refuse to tell us anything other than your own opinion.

I have read Ephesians 1 through several times in a deliberate attempt to discover what you see there, and I cannot find it Ephesians 1 that our salvation is all about God's worth and God's Glory.

You can't see that three times he talks about salvation being to the praise of the glory of his grace (vv. 6, 12, 14)? How can you miss that? And look at how the focus is on God in that passage.

Is your declaration not an attempt to twist the truth contained in Ephesians 1?

No, my declaration is the express statement of Eph 1. There is no twisting involved.

I am connecting your first two sentences where in the first you deny that the Christ's atonement for sin has anything to do with how God "feels" about us, then in the second you are saying that the Christ's death is indeed an indication of how powerless we are that we cannot save ourselves from God's imposed death penalty for sin! That is nothing less than a deliberate twist of the meaning of scripture. In creating man, God did not input into man the power to save himself from the penalty of sin, that would have been pure foolishness on God's part, therefore such power is not inherent to man. To keep from sinning is inherent to man and it is called obedience, that is why disobedience is sin. When Adam disobeyed God it was sin, and because Adam did sin God's previously imposed penalty for sin, death, was imposed on mankind.

That seems a very convuluted paragraph. Its major problem is its total lack of Scripture. The fact that we are powerless to save ourselves from the penalty of sin is not a twisting of Scripture. It is the direct teaching of Scripture, such as Titus 3:5 where it is not based on what we do, and Eph 2 where it is not of our works. In fact Gal 2 says that if we could be saved any other way then Christ died in vain.

God does value us enough to spend His precious Son's life to redeem us.

For the umpteenth time, where does Scripture say this? Why should we take your word for it? Show us what God said.

We should respect that and likewise value ourselves enough to want to be saved through having faith in God.

This is based on a faulty premise, and thus draws a faulty conclusion.

Again the death of Christ in our stead is the most magnanimous gesture by God the Father that indicates to us that we are not worthless nothings! We are in truth worth enough to God for him to send His only begotten son to save us from the penalty of sin.

Again, show us Scripture. And tell us how that fits with the passages about sin. Nowhere can I find such a teaching in Scripture.

You should have stopped after "Father." you would have been right.

Why do you refuse to use Scripture to support your views? I don't quite understand that.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Ephesians Chapter 1

Address and greetings

1. Paul, by the will of God an apostle of Christ Jesus, to God's holy people, faithful in Christ Jesus. 2. Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

God's plan of salvation
3. Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all the spiritual blessings of heaven in Christ. Thus he chose us in Christ before the world was made to be holy and faultless before him in love, marking us out for himself beforehand, to be adopted sons, through Jesus Christ. Such was his purpose and good pleasure, to the praise of the glory of his grace, his free gift to us in the Beloved, in whom, through his blood, we gain our freedom, the forgiveness of our sins. Such is the richness of the grace which he has showered on us in all wisdom and insight. He has let us know the mystery of his purpose, according to his good pleasure which he determined beforehand in Christ, for him to act upon when the times had run their course: that he would bring everything together under Christ, as head, everything in the heavens and everything on earth. And it is in him that we have received our heritage, marked out beforehand as we were, under the plan of the One who guides all things as he decides by his own will, chosen to be, for the praise of his glory, the people who would put their hopes in Christ before he came.

13. Now you too, in him, have heard the message of the truth and the gospel of your salvation, and having put your trust in it you have been stamped with the seal of the Holy Spirit of the Promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance, for the freedom of the people whom God has taken for his own, for the praise of his glory.

The triumph and the supremacy of Christ
15. That is why I, having once heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus, and your love for all God's holy people, have never failed to thank God for you and to remember you in my prayers. May the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, give you a spirit of wisdom and perception of what is revealed, to bring you to full knowledge of him. May he enlighten the eyes of your mind so that you can see what hope his call holds for you, how rich is the glory of the heritage he offers among his holy people, and how extraordinarily great is the power that he has exercised for us believers; this accords with the strength of his power at work in Christ, the power which he exercised in raising him from the dead and enthroning him at his right hand, in heaven, far above every principality, ruling force, power or sovereignty, or any other name that can be named, not only in this age but also in the age to come. He has put all things under his feet, and made him, as he is above all things, the head of the Church; which is his Body, the fullness of him who is filled, all in all.

 

[Wes Outwest]

I have read Ephesians 1 through several times in a deliberate attempt to discover what you see there, and I cannot find it Ephesians 1 that our salvation is all about God's worth and God's Glory.

You can't see that three times he talks about salvation being to the praise of the glory of his grace (vv. 6, 12, 14)? How can you miss that? And look at how the focus is on God in that passage.

Why can't you see that in 3 through 12, Paul is telling the Ephesians about God's plan of salvation in choosing those who would be the apostles, and that it is they who would bring God's Gospel message to the world for the praise of God's Glory? Why can't you see in 14 that Paul is telling the Ephesians that it is their faith in God that saves them so that they Can praise God in his Glory.
So if you are saying the same thing that I see there, we agree. It is for our praise of God's Glory that we are saved through faith while God's grace prevails. It is not just for God's glory, but for our praise of His glory.

 

[Wes Outwest]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />God does value us enough to spend His precious Son's life to redeem us.

For the umpteenth time, where does Scripture say this? Why should we take your word for it? Show us what God said.</font>[/QUOTE]JOHN 3:16

 

[Pastor Larry]

Why can't you see that in 3 through 12, Paul is telling the Ephesians about God's plan of salvation in choosing those who would be the apostles, and that it is they who would bring God's Gospel message to the world for the praise of God's Glory?

Because it isn't there. That isn't what the words mean, and therefore it isn't what God said. It has nothing to do with choosing apostles, as you can tell by the lack of reference to choosing apostles.

Why can't you see in 14 that Paul is telling the Ephesians that it is their faith in God that saves them so that they Can praise God in his Glory.

Because that isn't what it says. The praise of his glory refers to redemption.

The point of Eph 1 is that God saves, beginning with election, for his sake -- to magnify his glory. There is nothing about our worth in there, as you can tell by the absolute lack of references to our worth.

The same is true about John 3:16. There is absolutely nothing in John 3:16 that indicates God sent his Son because we were valuable to him. That verse tells us how God loved the world, not why.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Larry have you read John 17:1-26?

Look for the keywords contained in Eph 1:1-12

There is a direct parallel between the two sets of scripture.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I have read both, and there are parallels, but they are certainly not direct, and they both say the same thing ... That God saved us for his own glory. Neither say anything about the worth of man.

Why keep stalling on us? Why not tell us where Scripture says that God saved us because of our worth to him?

 

[Wes Outwest]

The scripture do not say it directly, but have you ever heard the expression "actions speak louder than words"?

Likewise, the scriptures do not use the terms trinity or Rapture, However, there is not a living Christian that does not understand them both.

 

[Pastor Larry]

The difference is that the Scriptures teach clearly both the Rapture (whenever you tyhink it is) and the Trinity. It does not teach anything remotely similar to "God saved us for our worth." It teaches that man is completely and utter sinful, with nothing worth saving.

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
The difference is that the Scriptures teach clearly both the Rapture (whenever you tyhink it is) and the Trinity. It does not teach anything remotely similar to "God saved us for our worth." It teaches that man is completely and utter sinful, with nothing worth saving.

For what possible reason would God save us then if it was not for the worth that HE sees in us?

 

[RodnStaff]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
The difference is that the Scriptures teach clearly both the Rapture (whenever you tyhink it is) and the Trinity. It does not teach anything remotely similar to "God saved us for our worth." It teaches that man is completely and utter sinful, with nothing worth saving.

And this you say of God's creation. So, God does create junk. Perhaps He is not all that creative.


Honestly, Calvinism is like a slap in the face to God. How could anyone dare to insult and blaspheme Him so?

 

[russell55]

And this you say of God's creation. So, God does create junk. Perhaps He is not all that creative.

No, God created good. The junkiness comes as a result of Adam's fall.

Honestly, Calvinism is like a slap in the face to God. How could anyone dare to insult and blaspheme Him so?

What is a slap in the face to God is not acknowledging that the process that begins when we are born again is a new creation. It is an "ex-nihilo" creation in the same way the first creation was.

For God, who said “Let light shine out of darkness,” is the one who shined in our hearts to give us the light of the glorious knowledge of God in the face of Christ.

Out of nothing, out of darkness, God's light shines into our hearts to recreate something of value within us--He gives the glorious knowledge of God in the face of Christ.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />God does value us enough to spend His precious Son's life to redeem us.

For the umpteenth time, where does Scripture say this? Why should we take your word for it? Show us what God said.</font>[/QUOTE]JOHN 3:16 </font>[/QUOTE]John 3:16 is about the quality of God's love, not our value.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
The difference is that the Scriptures teach clearly both the Rapture (whenever you tyhink it is) and the Trinity. It does not teach anything remotely similar to "God saved us for our worth." It teaches that man is completely and utter sinful, with nothing worth saving.

For what possible reason would God save us then if it was not for the worth that HE sees in us? </font>[/QUOTE]Great question. It was in order to display the worth in Himself - the glory of His grace and mercy - that He saved us.