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The high cost of a believer rejecting Jesus Christ

Pastor Larry

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For what possible reason would God save us then if it was not for the worth that HE sees in us?
He answered this in Eph1 ... that we should be the praise of his glory. It was about him glorifying himself.
 

Pastor Larry

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And this you say of God's creation. So, God does create junk. Perhaps He is not all that creative.
As Russell pointed out, it is the fall that ruined God's creation and marred the image of God. God didn't create junk.

Honestly, Calvinism is like a slap in the face to God. How could anyone dare to insult and blaspheme Him so?
Calvinism magnifies teh wondrous glory of a God who saves sinners. I am not sure how that is a slap in teh face, or an insult and blasphemy.
 

icthus

New Member
Bacically, if God did not see anything worthwhile in us to save, then He would not have even considered redeeming mankind.

Man, even though marred through the fall, was not a complete write-off, as we still bear some of the "image of God" in us. It is ONLY that man was made in the image of God, what we could ever be considered as "worthy" of being saved. Nothing in us of ourselves deserves salvation. We are all "worthy" of eternal damnation, but the Lord Who is rich in mercy, extended to all without exception, the hope of eternal salvation through the finished work of the Lord Jesus on the cross. If there is any boasting to do, let us do it in the Lord Jesus, that He might get ALL of the glory that rightly belongs to Him.
 

Wes Outwest

New Member
Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />For what possible reason would God save us then if it was not for the worth that HE sees in us?
He answered this in Eph1 ... that we should be the praise of his glory. It was about him glorifying himself. </font>[/QUOTE]Do you not agree that is a value that God sees in man?
 

Pastor Larry

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o you not agree that is a value that God sees in man?
I am not sure what you mean. God saved man in order to glorify himself. We receive the benefits of that. But God does not save us because we are worth something. We are in t God's image even though that image has been marred by sin. That sin nature is passed down all the way from ADam, by imputation.
 

Wes Outwest

New Member
If God saves man FOR ANY PURPOSE he is putting value in those whom he is saving!

If he saved man to have "slave labor" then he values man as a slave.

If he saved man to be a worshipper, then he values man as a worshipper.

God values man enough to provide his only begotten son to enable man to bypass death and have everlasting life.

Can't you see that for God man has intrinsic value?
 

icthus

New Member
Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />o you not agree that is a value that God sees in man?
I am not sure what you mean. God saved man in order to glorify himself. We receive the benefits of that. But God does not save us because we are worth something. We are in t God's image even though that image has been marred by sin. That sin nature is passed down all the way from ADam, by imputation. </font>[/QUOTE]Yeh Larry, are you saying that God saved us though He did not think that we are "worth it"? I ask again, how can this be possible as, even though we are fallen, yet we have not "lost" the "Image of God" that man was created in. Man is the high-point in God's creation, because He made us in His Image. Man fell because of disobeying God, but God, whose love is very strong for man, already had planned to redeem us, because He sees our "worth in Jesus Christ". It is true, that in a sense we are worthless sinners who deserve eternal punishment. But, because of who man is, that God even considered to redeem him. Remember that Scripture, "what is man that you are mindful of him?" (Heb.2.6). Where the Greek "mimnesko", here means, "to have care for" Because God "cares" about man, He chose to Redeem him. If He did not care about us, then He surely would have left us.
 

Pastor Larry

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Yeh Larry, are you saying that God saved us though He did not think that we are "worth it"?
I think I have been clear that the point of salvation is his worth, not ours.

I ask again, how can this be possible as, even though we are fallen, yet we have not "lost" the "Image of God" that man was created in. Man is the high-point in God's creation, because He made us in His Image. Man fell because of disobeying God, but God, whose love is very strong for man, already had planned to redeem us, because He sees our "worth in Jesus Christ". It is true, that in a sense we are worthless sinners who deserve eternal punishment. But, because of who man is, that God even considered to redeem him. Remember that Scripture, "what is man that you are mindful of him?" (Heb.2.6). Where the Greek "mimnesko", here means, "to have care for" Because God "cares" about man, He chose to Redeem him. If He did not care about us, then He surely would have left us.
I think he absolutely cares for us. But he didn't save us because we were worth it, because we had value to him. We were sinners, and the image of God was marred by sin.

But you point out an interesting conflict it seems. YOu say that before man fell, God had already planned to redeem him. Apparently, you believe that Adam was going to fall and had no choice in the matter. Else, why would God plan to do something that he didn't know was necessary?
 

icthus

New Member
Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Can't you see that for God man has intrinsic value?
Your utter lack of Scripture has certainly made it difficult to see that. But I am willing to look at any passage you put forth. </font>[/QUOTE]Larry, the short answer is that we are still in "God's Image" (see 1 Corinthians 11:7, where the Greek "huparcho", is not strictly in the "present tense" as suggested by most lexicons; the "imperfect"). We were created in God's Image, then, even after the fall this Image is has not been destroyed.
 

Pastor Larry

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Larry, the short answer is that we are still in "God's Image" (see 1 Corinthians 11:7, where the Greek "huparcho", is not strictly in the "present tense" as suggested by most lexicons; the "imperfect"). We were created in God's Image, then, even after the fall this Image is has not been destroyed.
I am not aware of any who thinks we are not still in the image of God. But the image of God in man has been marred. Therefore, your "short answer" is no answer at all.

[ April 18, 2005, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
 

icthus

New Member
Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Larry, the short answer is that we are still in "God's Image" (see 1 Corinthians 11:7, where the Greek "huparcho", is not strictly in the "present tense" as suggested by most lexicons; the "imperfect"). We were created in God's Image, then, even after the fall this Image is has not been destroyed.
I am not aware of any who thinks we are not sil in the image of God. But the image of God in man has been marred. Therefore, your "short answer" is no answer at all. </font>[/QUOTE]Larry, it is because we are STILL in the Image of God, that God considered us "worth" being saved. This does NOT mean that it is anything of ourselves.
 

Pastor Larry

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That is entirely different. God does save only those who are in his image, and he loves his image in man. But our sin makes us worthless. I think you are not fully interacting with the effects of sin in the human life. I think you are underestimating just how bad it is. And I think that shows in a number of areas, such as the human will, desires, thinking, etc.
 

icthus

New Member
Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
That is entirely different. God does save only those who are in his image, and he loves his image in man. But our sin makes us worthless. I think you are not fully interacting with the effects of sin in the human life. I think you are underestimating just how bad it is. And I think that shows in a number of areas, such as the human will, desires, thinking, etc.
No, Larry, in fact it agree with what you say here
 

Wes Outwest

New Member
Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
That is entirely different. God does save only those who are in his image, and he loves his image in man. But our sin makes us worthless. I think you are not fully interacting with the effects of sin in the human life. I think you are underestimating just how bad it is. And I think that shows in a number of areas, such as the human will, desires, thinking, etc.
But our sins have been atoned and are no longer charged against us because His only begotten son Paid for them. However, if we are not repentant of our sins, what evidence do we show to God that we have been changed?
 
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