The Holy Bible and The Unsaved

[Saved-By-Grace]

Unlikely. Hyper-Calvinists believe that all evangelism is pointless. From THEOPEDIA:

The archetypal Hyper-Calvinist position may be found explicitly set forth in the confessional articles of the Gospel Standard (Baptist) Churches, specifically: Articles of Faith of the Gospel Standard Aid and Poor Relief Societies, (Leicester, England: Oldham & Manton Ltd., n.d.) -- most recently seen online here.

Article XXVI of the Gospel Standard articles: "We deny duty faith and duty repentance – these terms suggesting that it is every man’s duty spiritually and savingly to repent and believe. We deny also that there is any capability in man by nature to any spiritual good whatever. So that we reject the doctrine that man in a state of nature should be exhorted to believe in or turn to God."

Article XXXIII of the Gospel Standard articles: "Therefore, that for ministers in the present day to address unconverted persons, or indiscriminately all in a mixed congregation, calling upon them to savingly repent, believe, and receive Christ, or perform any other acts dependent upon the new creative power of the Holy Ghost, is, on the one hand, to imply creature power, and on the other, to deny the doctrine of special redemption."​

maybe so, but much of Calvinism is a sham as it really does not desire that the entire world gets saved, even though this is God's own heart, and therefore by some "duty" say they preach to the entire world to be saved, when they don't even believe it! God is Almighty and fully able to do anything. So, why does He not simply have the Gospel for the salvation of the elect go to them directly, instead of telling the whole world something that is not even a waste of time? We might not know who the elect are, but surely God does.

 

[atpollard]

maybe so, but much of Calvinism is a sham as it really does not desire that the entire world gets saved, even though this is God's own heart, and therefore by some "duty" say they preach to the entire world to be saved, when they don't even believe it! God is Almighty and fully able to do anything. So, why does He not simply have the Gospel for the salvation of the elect go to them directly, instead of telling the whole world something that is not even a waste of time? We might not know who the elect are, but surely God does.

Don't hold back, tell me what you REALLY think.

You have to admit that if GOD really wanted every single person saved, then they would be, so on some level God must at least ALLOW some to be lost. If the 'wide' and 'narrow' road stuff is true, then the reality is that MOST are lost (whatever the reason).

I agree, God COULD do a lot of things. We could all be raptured out of the world at the moment of our salvation and God could have Angels spread the gospel if he wanted. Of course, we know that God has chosen NOT to handle things that way. I guess we just have to decide whether we trust that God knows more than we do and His plan is better than ours. I am ok with that.

So apparently God has placed us in a field full of young wheat and tares that we have no hope of telling the difference. However, that doesn't mean that there is no difference between a young wheat and a young tare. A tare will never grow into a wheat and a wheat will never grow into a tare. As young sprouts, people like us just have a hard time telling them apart. So we are called to shine the Light of Christ on the field and water it with his love. The wheat will respond by growing into mature wheat and the tares will respond by growing into mature tares. Eventually, it is easy to tell them apart because Wheat and Tares look nothing alike when they are fully grown.

So we preach the Gospel to all knowing that, as Jesus warned us, the fields are full of both Wheat and Tares. However it is not our job to worry about the tares. We will never turn them into wheat, and they will not stop us from shining His light on the Wheat. Eventually God will send his angels to do the harvesting and deal with the tares himself. Those whose hard hearts rejected God will be twice condemned. First because they did reject God and sin. Second because they heard the same gospel preached as the saved, but refused to listen.

The danger of "Free Will" is three fold:

• First there is the danger of guilt that the eternal destiny of another rests on your ability to persuade ... who was damned because YOU failed to adequately communicate the Gospel?
• Second there is the danger of pride ... God chose you because he knew that you would accept, or you are somehow better than the lost because YOU chose to believe and they did not.
• Third is the danger of your uncertain fate ... if you chose to believe, could you loose that belief and with it your salvation?

In contrast, Monergism states that salvation is 100% of God from first to last, so:

• First your efforts are guaranteed to be effective. God will use any tool of HIS choosing to accomplish HIS purpose ... the 'elect' are guaranteed to respond, so your efforts cannot fail.
• Second there is absolutely no intrinsic difference between the saved and the lost ... both are totally incapable of choosing God. It is God who chose you for reasons that have nothing to do with you and everything to do with God. The only reasonable response is humility and gratitude ... we have nothing to be proud about.
• Third is the certainty of our destiny. If it was never about me and always about God's choosing, then nothing I do will change God's mind. God already loved me at my worst for His sake, not because of anything I did. God doesn't change.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Don't hold back, tell me what you REALLY think.

You have to admit that if GOD really wanted every single person saved, then they would be, so on some level God must at least ALLOW some to be lost. If the 'wide' and 'narrow' road stuff is true, then the reality is that MOST are lost (whatever the reason).

I agree, God COULD do a lot of things. We could all be raptured out of the world at the moment of our salvation and God could have Angels spread the gospel if he wanted. Of course, we know that God has chosen NOT to handle things that way. I guess we just have to decide whether we trust that God knows more than we do and His plan is better than ours. I am ok with that.

So apparently God has placed us in a field full of young wheat and tares that we have no hope of telling the difference. However, that doesn't mean that there is no difference between a young wheat and a young tare. A tare will never grow into a wheat and a wheat will never grow into a tare. As young sprouts, people like us just have a hard time telling them apart. So we are called to shine the Light of Christ on the field and water it with his love. The wheat will respond by growing into mature wheat and the tares will respond by growing into mature tares. Eventually, it is easy to tell them apart because Wheat and Tares look nothing alike when they are fully grown.

So we preach the Gospel to all knowing that, as Jesus warned us, the fields are full of both Wheat and Tares. However it is not our job to worry about the tares. We will never turn them into wheat, and they will not stop us from shining His light on the Wheat. Eventually God will send his angels to do the harvesting and deal with the tares himself. Those whose hard hearts rejected God will be twice condemned. First because they did reject God and sin. Second because they heard the same gospel preached as the saved, but refused to listen.

The danger of "Free Will" is three fold:

• First there is the danger of guilt that the eternal destiny of another rests on your ability to persuade ... who was damned because YOU failed to adequately communicate the Gospel?
• Second there is the danger of pride ... God chose you because he knew that you would accept, or you are somehow better than the lost because YOU chose to believe and they did not.
• Third is the danger of your uncertain fate ... if you chose to believe, could you loose that belief and with it your salvation?

In contrast, Monergism states that salvation is 100% of God from first to last, so:

• First your efforts are guaranteed to be effective. God will use any tool of HIS choosing to accomplish HIS purpose ... the 'elect' are guaranteed to respond, so your efforts cannot fail.
• Second there is absolutely no intrinsic difference between the saved and the lost ... both are totally incapable of choosing God. It is God who chose you for reasons that have nothing to do with you and everything to do with God. The only reasonable response is humility and gratitude ... we have nothing to be proud about.
• Third is the certainty of our destiny. If it was never about me and always about God's choosing, then nothing I do will change God's mind. God already loved me at my worst for His sake, not because of anything I did. God doesn't change.

There are two very fundamental errors in Reformed theology that just does not agree with the teaching of the Holy Bible

Firstly, because the Bible says that "God is willing that none should perish", it is wrongly assumed by Reformers that if God so desires this, then God will get this. And, because we know that the greater majority will reject Jesus as their Saviour, and end up lost in hell, that the whole of mankind will not be saved. We know from Scripture that God hates sin, and desires that His people, and indeed the entire world, would live just and holy lives. Yet, even so God "desires" this, and it does not happen, does not mean that somehow God has failed to achieve what He "desires". NO.

Secondly, Reformed theology has done away with the FREE WILL in all humans, and have come up with "Irresistible Grace", where the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit in convicting, cannot be "refused", as you state. However, this is a fallacy, as we read in Acts chapter 7:51, Stephen say, "“You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you", which is in the context of salvation, which is clear that the Holy Spirit's convicting can be "refused" by the sinner. We also read of what Paul says, again in connection of the salvation of sinners, "And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you reject it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles" (Acts 13:46).

Monergism, is no more than the "elect" being a bunch of puppets.

 

[atpollard]

There are two very fundamental errors in Reformed theology that just does not agree with the teaching of the Holy Bible

Where most people who reject Reformed Theology only have one fundamental error ... an unwillingness to look at a verse in its larger Biblical contest.

Firstly, because the Bible says that "God is willing that none should perish", it is wrongly assumed by Reformers that if God so desires this, then God will get this. And, because we know that the greater majority will reject Jesus as their Saviour, and end up lost in hell, that the whole of mankind will not be saved. We know from Scripture that God hates sin, and desires that His people, and indeed the entire world, would live just and holy lives. Yet, even so God "desires" this, and it does not happen, does not mean that somehow God has failed to achieve what He "desires". NO.

I know of no Calvinist who thinks that God has failed at anything. However, that verse on "God willing that none should perish" actually comes from a very interesting paragraph that is too seldom quoted in its entirety:

2 Peter 3:8-9 NASB

But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.​

Notice that Peter is speaking to the saints ("beloved") and the Lord is patient TOWARDS YOU (the saints) not wishing any (of the "beloved") to perish but to [have time to] come to repentance. Peter was never talking about everybody in the world, he was talking to the "beloved" ... that's the Church ... bride of Christ ... the Elect ... His sheep. Kinda puts a different spin on that verse, don't it.

Secondly, Reformed theology has done away with the FREE WILL in all humans, and have come up with "Irresistible Grace", where the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit in convicting, cannot be "refused", as you state. However, this is a fallacy, as we read in Acts chapter 7:51, Stephen say, "“You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you", which is in the context of salvation, which is clear that the Holy Spirit's convicting can be "refused" by the sinner. We also read of what Paul says, again in connection of the salvation of sinners, "And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you reject it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles" (Acts 13:46).

"Free Will" is one of the most ill-defined terms that I have ever encountered. Everyone seems to have their own personal meaning. Let's assume that you mean FREE WILL is the ability of a person to choose either "good" or "evil", to obey God or to follow their sin nature. Given that definition, would it surprise you to learn that GOD has no Free Will? God cannot choose to do "evil". God cannot sin. Either action is to act contrary to God's own nature and God can do anything except cease to be God ... who he is.

Some verses on "Free Will"

[Rom 6:6, 16-20 NASB] 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; ... 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
[Rom 16:18 NASB] 18 For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.
[Gal 4:8 NASB] 8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.
[Eph 6:6 NASB] 6 not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.

I didn't find a lot of verses on the ability to freely choose between God and Sin. It seems that perhaps no man can serve two masters.

If you are really going to attempt to understand Reformed Theology, I suggest you start with Total Depravity (aka Total Inability) (found in Romans 1-3) rather than Irresistible Grace (found more in John 6:44 than Acts 7)

 

[Iconoclast]

are you a hyper-calvinist?

For you to ask this question shows you do not have a working undertstanding of the discussion at hand.
Hyper calvinists go beyond biblical teaching...I oppose them , specifically their false ideas.
Are you a new christian?
Take some time and read up on this topic...you really have no grasp on it.
there are many here who can help you...pollard is giving good responses to you....read them carefully...because your statements are off center.

 

[Iconoclast]

Saved-By-Grace,

There are two very fundamental errors in Reformed theology that just does not agree with the teaching of the Holy Bible

You make such sweeping pronouncements only to be proven badly mistaken each time.

Firstly, because the Bible says

Good...you want to attempt to go to the bible, but here once again you fail big time by butchering the verse in question by not being accurate,so right from the start you are going to be chewed up by anyone who responds...

that "God is willing that none should perish",[/QUOTE

The bible itself does not contain this made up idea....nope ...not in there...so what you have to say is automatically void.
God is very willing that multitudes will be sent into second death.

it is wrongly assumed by Reformers that if God so desires this,

Wrong....the reformers took the time to examine the verses and understand them....so first you wrest the verse out of it's context and meaning....then you bear false witness against the reformers.

And, because we know that the greater majority will reject Jesus as their Saviour, and end up lost in hell,

We do not know who God has purposed to save, but we know it is a great number....not a "select few" as you and others suggest quite in error.

that the whole of mankind will not be saved.

God never intended to save everyone.

We know from Scripture that God hates sin, and desires that His people, and indeed the entire world, would live just and holy lives.

Where do you read this...what verses suggest this to you, that God desires the world to live holy lives?

Yet, even so God "desires" this, and it does not happen,

A verse?

does not mean that somehow God has failed to achieve what He "desires". NO.

?

Secondly, Reformed theology has done away with the FREE WILL in all humans,

There is no proof of free will except in carnal thought and philosophy.

and have come up with "Irresistible Grace", where the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit in convicting, cannot be "refused", as you state

.
Another teaching you clearly do not grasp...

However, this is a fallacy, as we read in Acts chapter 7:51, Stephen say, "“You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you",

These reprobates ALWAYS...resist...as did their reprobate fathers...this proves depravity, not irresistable grace...

which is in the context of salvation, which is clear that the Holy Spirit's convicting can be "refused" by the sinner.

it always is, unless God works effectually;
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3;Song of Solomon 1:4 )

2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

We also read of what Paul says, again in connection of the salvation of sinners, "And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you reject it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles" (Acts 13:46).

reprobates

Monergism, is no more than the "elect" being a bunch of puppets.

when you do not understand ...you post things like this...do not worry...we will help you if you want.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Saved-By-Grace,



You make such sweeping pronouncements only to be proven badly mistaken each time.


Good...you want to attempt to go to the bible, but here once again you fail big time by butchering the verse in question by not being accurate,so right from the start you are going to be chewed up by anyone who responds...

The problem with "Calvinism/Reformed" theology, is that it is based more on mans suppositions than what the Bible teaches. It presents a false view of what the Gospel as taught in the Bible actually says, by restricting its impact on just the "elect". It misuses Scripture by producing arguments that are flawed, like John 3:16, which has been twisted to say what it does not. And even when the comments of John Calvin himself are given, they are ignored or dismissed, because what he says is the truth, but it does not agree with the warped teaching of Particular Redemption, as taught by these groups.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Where most people who reject Reformed Theology only have one fundamental error ... an unwillingness to look at a verse in its larger Biblical contest.


I know of no Calvinist who thinks that God has failed at anything. However, that verse on "God willing that none should perish" actually comes from a very interesting paragraph that is too seldom quoted in its entirety:

2 Peter 3:8-9 NASB

But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.​

Notice that Peter is speaking to the saints ("beloved") and the Lord is patient TOWARDS YOU (the saints) not wishing any (of the "beloved") to perish but to [have time to] come to repentance. Peter was never talking about everybody in the world, he was talking to the "beloved" ... that's the Church ... bride of Christ ... the Elect ... His sheep. Kinda puts a different spin on that verse, don't it.



"Free Will" is one of the most ill-defined terms that I have ever encountered. Everyone seems to have their own personal meaning. Let's assume that you mean FREE WILL is the ability of a person to choose either "good" or "evil", to obey God or to follow their sin nature. Given that definition, would it surprise you to learn that GOD has no Free Will? God cannot choose to do "evil". God cannot sin. Either action is to act contrary to God's own nature and God can do anything except cease to be God ... who he is.

Some verses on "Free Will"

[Rom 6:6, 16-20 NASB] 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; ... 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
[Rom 16:18 NASB] 18 For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.
[Gal 4:8 NASB] 8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.
[Eph 6:6 NASB] 6 not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.

I didn't find a lot of verses on the ability to freely choose between God and Sin. It seems that perhaps no man can serve two masters.

If you are really going to attempt to understand Reformed Theology, I suggest you start with Total Depravity (aka Total Inability) (found in Romans 1-3) rather than Irresistible Grace (found more in John 6:44 than Acts 7)

Shows that YOU don't read what the passage in 2 Peter actually says. There are two readings of the Greek text here, the first being, "towards US", and the second, "towards YOU" (the best reading textually). The former is addressed to the Christians to whom Peter is writing. the second, to those "mockers", who are included in "God's patience" to see them repent. If you suppose that the words are addressed to the "elect", then they are completely pointless. WHY would Peter write to the elect, that God does not will that they perish, but that they repent? Firstly, the "elect" CANNOT "perish", so there is no purpose to state something that it not possible in argument. Secondly, the "elect" WILL, according to some, "repent", and get saved. Read the complete context as it is, and without your Calvinistic bias, and you just might see the truth for what it is.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Where most people who reject Reformed Theology only have one fundamental error ... an unwillingness to look at a verse in its larger Biblical contest.


I know of no Calvinist who thinks that God has failed at anything. However, that verse on "God willing that none should perish" actually comes from a very interesting paragraph that is too seldom quoted in its entirety:

2 Peter 3:8-9 NASB

But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.​

Notice that Peter is speaking to the saints ("beloved") and the Lord is patient TOWARDS YOU (the saints) not wishing any (of the "beloved") to perish but to [have time to] come to repentance. Peter was never talking about everybody in the world, he was talking to the "beloved" ... that's the Church ... bride of Christ ... the Elect ... His sheep. Kinda puts a different spin on that verse, don't it.



"Free Will" is one of the most ill-defined terms that I have ever encountered. Everyone seems to have their own personal meaning. Let's assume that you mean FREE WILL is the ability of a person to choose either "good" or "evil", to obey God or to follow their sin nature. Given that definition, would it surprise you to learn that GOD has no Free Will? God cannot choose to do "evil". God cannot sin. Either action is to act contrary to God's own nature and God can do anything except cease to be God ... who he is.

Some verses on "Free Will"

[Rom 6:6, 16-20 NASB] 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; ... 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
[Rom 16:18 NASB] 18 For such men are slaves, not of our Lord Christ but of their own appetites; and by their smooth and flattering speech they deceive the hearts of the unsuspecting.
[Gal 4:8 NASB] 8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.
[Eph 6:6 NASB] 6 not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.

I didn't find a lot of verses on the ability to freely choose between God and Sin. It seems that perhaps no man can serve two masters.

If you are really going to attempt to understand Reformed Theology, I suggest you start with Total Depravity (aka Total Inability) (found in Romans 1-3) rather than Irresistible Grace (found more in John 6:44 than Acts 7)

You say that "God has no free will". So, who exactly restrains Him? Yes, God does not lie, or do any evil, etc, but, this is to do with His Holy nature and character and nothing to do with His ability. He is bound by His Holy nature, which is Perfect in every way, and cannot include any wrong. The Bible clearly does say, "The Lord does whatever pleases Him, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths" (Psalm 135:6); and, Daniel 4:35, "He does as He pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back His hand or say to Him: “What have you done?” Matthew 19:26, "But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

This is the FREEDOM that God as the Almighty, has. He DOES ANYTHING that His nature permits as God, and there is NOTHING that He CANNOT do.

 

[Iconoclast]

The problem with "Calvinism/Reformed" theology, is that it is based more on mans suppositions than what the Bible teaches. It presents a false view of what the Gospel as taught in the Bible actually says, by restricting its impact on just the "elect". It misuses Scripture by producing arguments that are flawed, like John 3:16, which has been twisted to say what it does not. And even when the comments of John Calvin himself are given, they are ignored or dismissed, because what he says is the truth, but it does not agree with the warped teaching of Particular Redemption, as taught by these groups.

Could you show what John 3:16.....actually says?
Hint...use an interlinear or some such ....then comment.

 

[Iconoclast]

Shows that YOU don't read what the passage in 2 Peter actually says. There are two readings of the Greek text here, the first being, "towards US", and the second, "towards YOU" (the best reading textually). The former is addressed to the Christians to whom Peter is writing. the second, to those "mockers", who are included in "God's patience" to see them repent. If you suppose that the words are addressed to the "elect", then they are completely pointless. WHY would Peter write to the elect, that God does not will that they perish, but that they repent? Firstly, the "elect" CANNOT "perish", so there is no purpose to state something that it not possible in argument. Secondly, the "elect" WILL, according to some, "repent", and get saved. Read the complete context as it is, and without your Calvinistic bias, and you just might see the truth for what it is.

Look up the words boulemai, and thelo in the passage....try reading it in context....
You might find that Peter is saying every single person spoken of...is going to be saved...

 

[Iconoclast]

You say that "God has no free will". So, who exactly restrains Him? Yes, God does not lie, or do any evil, etc, but, this is to do with His Holy nature and character and nothing to do with His ability. He is bound by His Holy nature, which is Perfect in every way, and cannot include any wrong. The Bible clearly does say, "The Lord does whatever pleases Him, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths" (Psalm 135:6); and, Daniel 4:35, "He does as He pleases with the powers of heaven and the peoples of the earth. No one can hold back His hand or say to Him: “What have you done?” Matthew 19:26, "But Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

This is the FREEDOM that God as the Almighty, has. He DOES ANYTHING that His nature permits as God, and there is NOTHING that He CANNOT do.

You answered your own question here.

 

[Darrell C]

You mean like a "Lily and Holly"?

I am not familiar with these terms.

I was speaking more about Baptists whose Theology leans more Dispensational.

Frankly, it was a lot easier when I was an Arminian ... then I started actually reading the Bible for myself and had to change my theology, or quit reading scripture. I came to 4 point Calvinism before I ever heard of 'Calvinism and Arminianism'. I just never gave any thought to whose sins Jesus died for beyond being grateful that he died for mine ... so Limited/Unlimited Atonement was a non-issue for me. To a large extent, it still is ... whose sins Jesus carried to the cross is His business:

Keep reading, lol, I am quite confident it will change again (and I don't mean back to an Arminian view).

Its pretty much a given "Only the Elect will be saved." That doesn't mean we do not see men "saved" prior to the Mystery of the Gospel being revealed in this Age. The key to understanding this is not to equate being justified in an Old Testament setting with being Eternally Redeemed through the Work of Christ. No-one was eternally redeemed until Christ died in their stead, so, we see the grace of God not exacting the penalty for sin at the time of death in regards to the Old Testament Saint. They died not having received the promises God gave in the Old Testament. They did not receive the Promised Spirit, eternal remission of sins, or eternal union with God through the Reconciliation Christ came to bring about between Man and Himself.

And I think we can still see God extending that grace. I think most think that if they convey the Gospel to a person, their work is done, however, their "work" isn't what saves, it is the convicting Ministry of the Holy Ghost Who makes the natural mind understand. One can preach the Gospel to men but that doesn't mean the Holy Spirit is ministering in their hearts. Secondly, God provides revelation to men through an internal witness, seen in Romans 2 in regards to Gentiles who had not received the Covenant or the Word of God yet performed the works of the Law written on their hearts. We are told they will be judged by their response to that internal witness.

What does God care what I think about it?

He cares enough to give you His Word so you will know and understand His will for Man.


God bless.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Could you show what John 3:16.....actually says?
Hint...use an interlinear or some such ....then comment.

JOHN 3:16 - FOR GOD SO LOVES THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Look up the words boulemai, and thelo in the passage....try reading it in context....
You might find that Peter is saying every single person spoken of...is going to be saved...

so what Biblical distinction do you see with the use of these Greek words for "will"? I do not mean what "theology" says, but what the Bible actually teaches?

 

[Yeshua1]

you say "for willfully rejecting Jesus Christ", which is only possible if they have FREE WILL, to either accept or reject Jesus Christ? Unless you think that it is God Who "causes" them to reject Jesus?

They are doing what their "free will" allows them to do, as God is not causing them to reject Christ directly!

 

[Yeshua1]

so what Biblical distinction do you see with the use of these Greek words for "will"? I do not mean what "theology" says, but what the Bible actually teaches?

The desire and will of God is not the same thing...

 

[Yeshua1]

JOHN 3:16 - FOR GOD SO LOVES THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE

That either He meant the death of jesus to save some, or to save all!

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

The desire and will of God is not the same thing...

can you provide Scripture for this?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

That either He meant the death of jesus to save some, or to save all!

Jesus Christ came to save the whole world, but those who "believe", will only be saved. See what verse 18 says, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God" And, verse 36, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him." Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work is the central theme of the entire Bible.