The Holy Bible and The Unsaved

[Yeshua1]

This is Classic Reformed (Calvinist) Double Predestination explained at THEOPEDIA as follows:

"The classic position of Reformed theology views predestination as double in that it involves both election and reprobation but not symmetrical with respect to the mode of divine activity. A strict parallelism of operation is denied. Rather predestination is viewed in terms of a positive-negative relationship.

In the Reformed view God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace. To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves. He does not monergistically work sin or unbelief in their lives. Thus, the mode of operation in the lives of the elect is not parallel with that operation in the lives of the reprobate. God works regeneration monergistically but never sin."​

This is actually a radical form of Supralapsarianism described in THEOPEDIA as follows:

"The distortion of double predestination suggests a parallelism of foreordination and predestination by means of a positive symmetry, which may be called a positive-positive view of predestination. This is, God positively and actively intervenes in the lives of the elect to bring them to salvation; and in the same way God positively and actively intervenes in the life of the reprobate to bring him to sin.

This distortion makes God the author of sin who punishes a person for doing what God monergistically and irresistibly moves man to do. This is not the Reformed view of predestination, but a gross and inexcusable caricature of the doctrine. Such a view may be identified with what is often loosely described as Hyper-Calvinism and involves a radical form of supralapsarianism. Such a view of predestination has been virtually universally and monolithically rejected by Reformed thinkers."​

It is hard enough being a Reformed Baptist without people mis-defining what it is that we believe.

Thank you for this clarification, as I am a reformed baptist, and yet have heard and read that double predestination was different from what you outlined here. If this is the true meaning of the term, than I would see myself as holding to it also! The first posting, not the hyper cal version of the doctrine!

 

[Rippon]

Holding to Double Predestination (as many within the Reformed movement have always held) does not involve equal ultimacy. The two sides are asymmetrical.

Look at Atpollards' post #17.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

The lost are in hell due to them being founded guilty in Adam, guilty for their own sins committed, and for willfully rejecting Jesus Christ.
God predestined for them their eternal condition/state in Hell due to those truths!

you say "for willfully rejecting Jesus Christ", which is only possible if they have FREE WILL, to either accept or reject Jesus Christ? Unless you think that it is God Who "causes" them to reject Jesus?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

This is Classic Reformed (Calvinist) Double Predestination explained at THEOPEDIA as follows:

"The classic position of Reformed theology views predestination as double in that it involves both election and reprobation but not symmetrical with respect to the mode of divine activity. A strict parallelism of operation is denied. Rather predestination is viewed in terms of a positive-negative relationship.

In the Reformed view God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace. To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves. He does not monergistically work sin or unbelief in their lives. Thus, the mode of operation in the lives of the elect is not parallel with that operation in the lives of the reprobate. God works regeneration monergistically but never sin."​

This is actually a radical form of Supralapsarianism described in THEOPEDIA as follows:

"The distortion of double predestination suggests a parallelism of foreordination and predestination by means of a positive symmetry, which may be called a positive-positive view of predestination. This is, God positively and actively intervenes in the lives of the elect to bring them to salvation; and in the same way God positively and actively intervenes in the life of the reprobate to bring him to sin.

This distortion makes God the author of sin who punishes a person for doing what God monergistically and irresistibly moves man to do. This is not the Reformed view of predestination, but a gross and inexcusable caricature of the doctrine. Such a view may be identified with what is often loosely described as Hyper-Calvinism and involves a radical form of supralapsarianism. Such a view of predestination has been virtually universally and monolithically rejected by Reformed thinkers."​

It is hard enough being a Reformed Baptist without people mis-defining what it is that we believe.

IF the Reformed view of Predestination is Biblically correct, then why would God ever have the Gospel of salvation preached to the entire human race, including those who He has left to go to hell? Why give any hope to the "non elect", who can never be saved, by sharing the Gospel of salvation with them in the first place? God is very able to have the Gospel given to only those He has "elected" for salvation, IF He so intended, rather than tell the entire world about something that is not Good News to those He has made sure can never be saved! This is nothing but deception.

 

[Iconoclast]

The gospel is not shared but rather declared.
The reprobate will to reject it as their will is bound by sin and self.
They have a self will...it is bound by sin and death.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

The gospel is not shared but rather declared.
The reprobate will to reject it as their will is bound by sin and self.
They have a self will...it is bound by sin and death.

so what is being "declared" to the reprobate? If the Gospel Message is Good News, what is this to these?

you say that because the reprobate will is bound in sin, that they can only choose to reject the Gospel? But, I read the words of Jesus Christ quite differently. In John chapter 5 He is speaking to the Jews who wanted to murder Him (verses 16-18). In verse 19 we are told that what follows in this chapter, was addressed to these Jews. Verses 24-25 are addressed to them, where Jesus says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.". Clearly Jesus did not teach that their wills were "bound" so that they could not "believe and hear". In verse 34 again Jesus says to these same Jews, "but these things I say, that you might be saved.". here we have Jesus saying that all that He is telling these Jews, was for the benefit of their salvation. But, as we read in verses 39-40, they choose not to (not that they cannot, which the Greek does not allow) accept Jesus so that they may be saved. This ties in nicely with Paul preaching to the Jews in Acts 13, where he says to them, "It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles" (verse 46). Note that they had the ability to either "accept" or "reject" the Gospel Message, but choose to reject it. Further, it says that these rejecting Jews, "considered themselves" to be "unworthy of eternal life", which is not what God did.

 

[atpollard]

Ephesians 2:1-10 NASB

1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
​

Every person is born one of the walking dead. Every salvation is a supernatural miracle wrought by God. Nobody just 'decides' to believe, belief is a miraculous gift from God to a dead people transforming them into His workmanship.
(That God chooses to do such a wonderful thing through so humble a means as allowing us to tell others of His goodness, makes it even more of a miracle.)

Romans 10:14-15 NASB

14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”​

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Ephesians 2:1-10 NASB

1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
​

Every person is born one of the walking dead. Every salvation is a supernatural miracle wrought by God. Nobody just 'decides' to believe, belief is a miraculous gift from God to a dead people transforming them into His workmanship.
(That God chooses to do such a wonderful thing through so humble a means as allowing us to tell others of His goodness, makes it even more of a miracle.)

Romans 10:14-15 NASB

14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”​

Yes, I agree that no person can of their own ever make a decision to accept and follow the Lord Jesus Christ. I don't think that any Bible-believing Christian would say otherwise. As we read in John chapter 16, God the Holy Spirit is "convicting the would of sin...because they do not believe" in Jesus Christ. The Gospel Message is the "power of God resulting in salvation". But, as you have quoted in your second passage, without the Gospel Message being preached to lost sinners, how can they ever have the opportunity to repent and believe in the Gospel? Salvation for every sinner is the work of Almighty God from start to finish. This, I believe the Bible says, is available to every human being, and not as some insist, only for a select few, which is more to do with personal theology, than what the Bible actually teaches.

 

[atpollard]

This, I believe the Bible says, is available to every human being, and not as some insist, only for a select few, which is more to do with personal theology, than what the Bible actually teaches.

It is a tough call, so I tend to hold off on throwing rocks.

Somehow John 12:32 (“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”) has to be reconciled with John 6:44 (“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.") without landing in the weeds of Universalism or Hyper-Calvinism which deny other biblical truths.

I don't know if all Calvinists see it like I do, but I agree that salvation is available to all men ... and all men follow their nature and say no. God has a 100% rejection rate from Human beings on his perfect offer. That is why we have Romans 8:28-30 ("And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.") ... God stepped in and handled matters himself: For our good and His glory.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

It is a tough call, so I tend to hold off on throwing rocks.

Somehow John 12:32 (“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”) has to be reconciled with John 6:44 (“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.") without landing in the weeds of Universalism or Hyper-Calvinism which deny other biblical truths.

I don't know if all Calvinists see it like I do, but I agree that salvation is available to all men ... and all men follow their nature and say no. God has a 100% rejection rate from Human beings on his perfect offer. That is why we have Romans 8:28-30 ("And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.") ... God stepped in and handled matters himself: For our good and His glory.

Why do you worry what "Calvinists" might think? Their understanding of Salvation as restricted to the few, is their theology and not what the Bible teaches. John 3:16 says it all, WHOSOEVER of the HUMAN RACE that God LOVES, CAN respond to the inner working of the Holy Spirit.

You say 100% rejection rate? Have you ever considered the nuns of the RCC, the greater majority who are not "born again" in the Biblical sense. Yet, I doubt if you will find one who will say they "reject" the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Saviour. They might not be "saved" as found in Scripture, but they do not "reject" the Lord.

 

[atpollard]

Why do you worry what "Calvinists" might think? Their understanding of Salvation as restricted to the few, is their theology and not what the Bible teaches. John 3:16 says it all, WHOSOEVER of the HUMAN RACE that God LOVES, CAN respond to the inner working of the Holy Spirit.

I don't worry about what Calvinists might think, I am a 5 point Calvinist and do not want to present any personal opinions as representing 'most Calvinists' ... I don't know what most Calvinists think about a lot of things, just what all orthodox Calvinists believe about a few things.

It is funny when people claim that Calvinism isn't what the Bible teaches. I understand that many disagree with the Calvinist interpretation of some verses, but I know of no group that places more emphasis on Scripture and is more ready to post scriptures and discuss context to defend their positions. Nobody chooses Reformed Theology because it "just feels right". Everyone submits to the scriptural evidence and is convinced "that is how the word of God says it is".

John 3:16 is beautiful and powerful, but it is also part of a paragraph rather than a stand-alone sentence.

John 3:16-21 NASB

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”​

Verse 17 says that "the world might be saved through Him" yet no one seriously reads the bible and concludes universal salvation, so the 'world' cannot mean each and every person without exception.

Verse 18 goes on to make that clear by dividing all people into two groups, believe/not judged vs. not believe/judged.

Verse 19 of the same paragraph explains the judgement: "the Light has come into the world," (Jesus came to the world) "and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil." (and men loved evil and rejected Jesus).

Verse 20 makes it even clearer by telling why: "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed." ... so why do men/the world flee from Jesus, because we do evil and do not want our evil to be exposed. In short, people don't WANT to repent, we want to keep our sin hidden just like Adam and Eve did.

Verse 21 talks about "he who practices the truth" ... so who practices truth? (HINT: Luke 18:19) and "deeds ... having been wrought in God.” Once again, credit for evil deeds falls in the lap of 'men' and 'good' deeds are from the hand of God.

Which is exactly what Calvinism claims. People are Totally Incapable of taking the first step towards God ... we are dead for Pete's sake ... so God has to take the responsibility for every part of salvation if He wants to see anyone actually saved.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

I don't worry about what Calvinists might think, I am a 5 point Calvinist and do not want to present any personal opinions as representing 'most Calvinists' ... I don't know what most Calvinists think about a lot of things, just what all orthodox Calvinists believe about a few things.

It is funny when people claim that Calvinism isn't what the Bible teaches. I understand that many disagree with the Calvinist interpretation of some verses, but I know of no group that places more emphasis on Scripture and is more ready to post scriptures and discuss context to defend their positions. Nobody chooses Reformed Theology because it "just feels right". Everyone submits to the scriptural evidence and is convinced "that is how the word of God says it is".

John 3:16 is beautiful and powerful, but it is also part of a paragraph rather than a stand-alone sentence.

John 3:16-21 NASB

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”​

Verse 17 says that "the world might be saved through Him" yet no one seriously reads the bible and concludes universal salvation, so the 'world' cannot mean each and every person without exception.

Verse 18 goes on to make that clear by dividing all people into two groups, believe/not judged vs. not believe/judged.

Verse 19 of the same paragraph explains the judgement: "the Light has come into the world," (Jesus came to the world) "and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil." (and men loved evil and rejected Jesus).

Verse 20 makes it even clearer by telling why: "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed." ... so why do men/the world flee from Jesus, because we do evil and do not want our evil to be exposed. In short, people don't WANT to repent, we want to keep our sin hidden just like Adam and Eve did.

Verse 21 talks about "he who practices the truth" ... so who practices truth? (HINT: Luke 18:19) and "deeds ... having been wrought in God.” Once again, credit for evil deeds falls in the lap of 'men' and 'good' deeds are from the hand of God.

Which is exactly what Calvinism claims. People are Totally Incapable of taking the first step towards God ... we are dead for Pete's sake ... so God has to take the responsibility for every part of salvation if He wants to see anyone actually saved.

You say that you are a "Five Point Calvinist", which takes the name of John Calvin as the basis of these 5 points. Yet Calvin himself on John 3:16 is very much ignored or disregarded by most who claim to get this teachings from him, as they bear his name for these doctrines. These are his comments on John 3:16, read carefully;

"That whosoever believeth on him may not perish. It is a remarkable commendation of faith, that it frees us from everlasting destruction. For he intended expressly to state that, though we appear to have been born to death, undoubted deliverance is offered to us by the faith of Christ; and, therefore, that we ought not to fear death, which otherwise hangs over us. And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life"

Not only that Jesus Christ DIED for ALL MEN WITHOUT EXCEPTION, a very "uncalvinistic" term, but, also, INVITE ALL INDISCRIMINATELY TO PARTAKE OF LIFE...and BE RECONCILED TO THE WHOLE WORLD.

 

[atpollard]

I am really trying to avoid a pointless Calvinism vs Arminianism debate (pointless because no one ever changes their minds) in a thread about The Bible and the Unsaved ... so @Saved-By-Grace , please understand if I don't respond any further. It isn't anything personal, just for the courtesy of the board.

 

[atpollard]

Back on topic ...

Can you provide solid Bible evidence that clearly shows why those who are not saved, will go into eternal punishment.

Romans 1:18-21 NASB

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.​

 

[Iconoclast]

so what is being "declared" to the reprobate? If the Gospel Message is Good News, what is this to these?

you say that because the reprobate will is bound in sin, that they can only choose to reject the Gospel? But, I read the words of Jesus Christ quite differently. In John chapter 5 He is speaking to the Jews who wanted to murder Him (verses 16-18). In verse 19 we are told that what follows in this chapter, was addressed to these Jews. Verses 24-25 are addressed to them, where Jesus says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.". Clearly Jesus did not teach that their wills were "bound" so that they could not "believe and hear". In verse 34 again Jesus says to these same Jews, "but these things I say, that you might be saved.". here we have Jesus saying that all that He is telling these Jews, was for the benefit of their salvation. But, as we read in verses 39-40, they choose not to (not that they cannot, which the Greek does not allow) accept Jesus so that they may be saved. This ties in nicely with Paul preaching to the Jews in Acts 13, where he says to them, "It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles" (verse 46). Note that they had the ability to either "accept" or "reject" the Gospel Message, but choose to reject it. Further, it says that these rejecting Jews, "considered themselves" to be "unworthy of eternal life", which is not what God did.

You don't read the words of Jesus any different than than any does. He preached to a multitude .
when you read that passage you don't know who's elected who's reprobate so he preached to all men .
He might have known....you and I do not... but that didn't stop him from preaching .
in Acts 18 it didn't stop the Holy Spirit things didn't stop Paul from preaching so hold not your peace I have much people in the city he didn't say he had all people or possibly all could believe he said I have much people in the city he knew exactly how many were there we don't know we're not God that's not our business
our business is to be faithful to proclaim the message .
it's a message of Salvation to those who are being saved it's a message of damnation to those who reject it that's what's being preached.

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Back on topic ...

Romans 1:18-21 NASB

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.​

what you quote does not deal with the eternal punishment of the wicked

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

You don't read the words of Jesus any different than than any does. He preached to a multitude .
when you read that passage you don't know who's elected who's reprobate so he preached to all men .
He might have known....you and I do not... but that didn't stop him from preaching .
in Acts 18 it didn't stop the Holy Spirit things didn't stop Paul from preaching so hold not your peace I have much people in the city he didn't say he had all people or possibly all could believe he said I have much people in the city he knew exactly how many were there we don't know we're not God that's not our business
our business is to be faithful to proclaim the message .
it's a message of Salvation to those who are being saved it's a message of damnation to those who reject it that's what's being preached.

are you a hyper-calvinist?

 

[atpollard]

are you a hyper-calvinist?

Unlikely. Hyper-Calvinists believe that all evangelism is pointless. From THEOPEDIA:

The archetypal Hyper-Calvinist position may be found explicitly set forth in the confessional articles of the Gospel Standard (Baptist) Churches, specifically: Articles of Faith of the Gospel Standard Aid and Poor Relief Societies, (Leicester, England: Oldham & Manton Ltd., n.d.) -- most recently seen online here.

Article XXVI of the Gospel Standard articles: "We deny duty faith and duty repentance – these terms suggesting that it is every man’s duty spiritually and savingly to repent and believe. We deny also that there is any capability in man by nature to any spiritual good whatever. So that we reject the doctrine that man in a state of nature should be exhorted to believe in or turn to God."

Article XXXIII of the Gospel Standard articles: "Therefore, that for ministers in the present day to address unconverted persons, or indiscriminately all in a mixed congregation, calling upon them to savingly repent, believe, and receive Christ, or perform any other acts dependent upon the new creative power of the Holy Ghost, is, on the one hand, to imply creature power, and on the other, to deny the doctrine of special redemption."​

 

[atpollard]

what you quote does not deal with the eternal punishment of the wicked

Your question did not ask for proof of the eternal punishment of the wicked. You asked "WHY" and directed it towards the "UNSAVED". Perhaps you need to clarify your question for me. What is it you are trying to ask?

 

[Saved-By-Grace]

Your question did not ask for proof of the eternal punishment of the wicked. You asked "WHY" and directed it towards the "UNSAVED". Perhaps you need to clarify your question for me. What is it you are trying to ask?

Yep, you are right, I misread my own question!