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The Idea Of Free Will
- Thread starter Reformed1689
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You just said choice is false prove it to be. Just because a man is drawn does not prove The man had nothing to do with it. Christ said no man can come to Him unless drawn. Although it is Christ who draws all men Jn 12:32 yet not all are saved.
MB
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Just where does scripture say all people groups. I never said individual people. You must be imagining these things because it's not in scripture. I think you imagine a lot because very little of what you say is in scripture
MB
Dave G
Well-Known Member
John the Baptist was one of God's prophets, who fell under Jeremiah 1:5, as do all of God's children.
Scripture causes no one to believe...God reveals His Son to someone, and they believe ( Matthew 11:27 ).
The Spirit of God does the work, not the will of men.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
"Calvinists" teach that belief in Christ is a result of God deciding to save someone.
In other words, a person believes because they are saved;
They are not saved because they believe.
They are not "forced" to believe...they naturally believe when God opens their heart, grants them the new birth and reveals their sinful condition to them by His word, and they then recognize that their only hope is Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for them.
In the light of John 1:13 and James 1:18, it's quite true, MB.
" Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." ( James 1:18 )
As for Acts of the Apostles 16:31, that is not hard to explain.
Paul is stating a truth here:
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..." is no less true if God does the choosing, because belief of the Gospel is a necessity per God's word.
Only those that have believed on Christ with the heart, and confessed Him with the mouth ( Romans 10:8-10 ), are ( and will be ) saved from the wrath to come.
No matter how one slices it, belief is a necessary "ingredient" of salvation.
But God's word says that even the privilege to belief on Christ is given to someone:
" For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;" ( Philippians 1:29 ).
So, if it's given to believers to believe, then they believe because they are saved, not to gain salvation.
I'm sure that he cannot...because without faith it is impossible to please God ( Hebrews 11:6 ).
Faith is the evidence of salvation ( Hebrews 11:1 ) and a fruit of the Spirit ( Galatians 5:22 ).
Even John the Baptist, who was filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb, expressed faith in Christ ( John 3:26-36 ).
May God bless you, sir.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Essentially, I see the question in the OP as being, "Does the will of men determine who God saves?"
" As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. " ( Romans 9:13-16 )
The answer is, "No".
" As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. " ( Romans 9:13-16 )
The answer is, "No".
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MB, .
Can you show any Calvinist who believes this? I do not think you can.
The will of man is of course bound by sin..Jn1:12,13 is very clear.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
It's been supported.
The problem is (apparently ), that the words on the page just aren't looked at closely enough.
Nothing about God's word is "tired", Marty.
It's all precious to those who love Him.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
It's been supported.
The problem is (apparently ), that the words on the page just aren't looked at closely enough.
Nothing about God's word is "tired", Marty.
It's all precious to those who love Him.
Question remains the same and unanswered. Why can’t you use the narrative?
The verses that are always argued over would have to use big font to fill a page. If you can convince someone the 490th time, you might want to use the rest of the Bible.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Mainly because when we go to other verses (you can see it on almost every page of Scripture) the Arminian crowd and those that are similar take us back to the same verses we always talk about so we have to point out their error. So yes, it does end up like a broken record because our theological opponents force it to be because they get hung up on a few verses taken out of context and don't look at the whole of Scripture.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Not a single one of those state that Scripture alone causes someone to believe. And again, we know that not all believe so it cannot be Scripture alone that is the cause. There has to be another factor.
I was responding to the false claim that "scripture causes no one to believe"? Do you agree with that statement as is was written? I would say it is not scripture alone. The HG inspired the word of God and inspired the authors to pen it. In that we can see God's direct hand in it. Further, in Romans 10 we also see that those sent with the word of God are sent because of God. So we see god's direct hand in that.
As to your claim that there has to be another factor because not all believe, I am puzzled by it. I would say that one does not lead to the other. Just because all do not believe does not mean there has to be another factor. I have to say I do not understand the thought process behind it.
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