The Idea Of Free Will

[Reformed1689]

I was responding to the false claim that "scripture causes no one to believe"? Do you agree with that statement as is was written? I would say it is not scripture alone.

Sorry, I thought you were referring to another quote I had made that was similar but with the nuance we are now discussing. So no, I would not actually agree with the statement as it is written but I know what the author meant.

As to your claim that there has to be another factor because not all believe, I am puzzled by it. I would say that one does not lead to the other. Just because all do not believe does not mean there has to be another factor. I have to say I do not understand the thought process behind it.

If Scripture was the sole agent that causes belief then it would either be converting everyone, or there is another factor. That factor, of course, is that not everyone is chosen to salvation and God decides who will believe the word of Scripture. I also firmly believe one cannot be saved without hearing Scripture. This is another reason we know that God chooses for some have never heard Scripture. They really do not have a choice now do they?

 

[Revmitchell]

If Scripture was the sole agent that causes belief then it would either be converting everyone, or there is another factor.

Why?

 

[Reformed1689]

Why?

If Scripture was the cause, why is it not powerful enough to cause everyone to believe?

 

[Revmitchell]

If Scripture was the cause, why is it not powerful enough to cause everyone to believe?

I could be wrong but I believe there is some other assumptions (for lack of a better word) built into this question that I do not know but are important for me to understand in order to understand your question. Without them my answer is why do you believe it has to be powerful enough to cause everyone to believe?

 

[1689Dave]

John 20:31
Romans 1:16
Romans 10:17

Notice how people hear without hearing;

“And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.” Acts 9:7 (KJV 1900)

“And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.” Acts 22:9 (KJV 1900)

“Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.” John 8:43 (KJV 1900)

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

 

[MB]

If Scripture was the cause, why is it not powerful enough to cause everyone to believe?

Why is it you cannot answer a simple question about Jn 12:32. Show me where the people groups are in that scripture?
You avoid what you can't answer. You made a claim you can't back up. This shows how little you know about what you claim to know.
MB

 

[MB]

I could be wrong but I believe there is some other assumptions (for lack of a better word) built into this question that I do not know but are important for me to understand in order to understand your question. Without them my answer is why do you believe it has to be powerful enough to cause everyone to believe?

He won't answer you because he can't.
MB

 

[Revmitchell]

He won't answer you because he can't.
MB

He'll answer me

 

[Reformed1689]

Why is it you cannot answer a simple question about Jn 12:32. Show me where the people groups are in that scripture?
You avoid what you can't answer. You made a claim you can't back up. This shows how little you know about what you claim to know.
MB

This is ridiculous. You know good and well that in MULTIPLE other threads you and I have been over this very passage.

 

[MB]

This is ridiculous. You know good and well that in MULTIPLE other threads you and I have been over this very passage.

And you have never answered just like you have no answer now.
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

John 20:31
Romans 1:16
Romans 10:17

Good verses, however the word of God apart from the enabling of the Spirit of God cannot be received and understood properly.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

 

[MB]

Good verses, however the word of God apart from the enabling of the Spirit of God cannot be received and understood properly.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

How could the spirit of man know anything when his spirit is suppose to be dead? Verse 11

 

[David Kent]

MB, .


Can you show any Calvinist who believes this? I do not think you can.

I think you will find many non Calvinists that believe that.

 

[Revmitchell]

Good verses, however the word of God apart from the enabling of the Spirit of God cannot be received and understood properly.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Exactly the HG inspired the authors and the word of God.

 

[Iconoclast]

MB,

How could the spirit of man know anything when his spirit is suppose to be dead?

Hello MB,

Good question, but let's think through this biblically,

Adam died spiritually...what were the effects of that.
eph2
12 That at that time ye were without Christ,

and strangers from the covenants of promise,

having no hope,

and without God in the world:

Spiritually dead men can know many things, but alienated sinners, with no hope, and without God in the world cannot properly welcome any spiritual truth correctly.

That is total depravity...heart ,mind, emotions, will, all effected,
Men can be religious, but twisted and perverted.
That is why the will is never free at any time,

 

[robycop3]

Remember, God also had Peter write that He was not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

Now, let's look at "willing". God's WILL is, of course, always done, but here, it means He would like to see everyone saved, & it's possible for everyone now living to be saved. However, each must meet God's conditions for salvation, that is, repent of one's sins & come to Jesus in belief & submission, asking Him to forgive one's sins. But it appears one has a choice of whether to meet God's conditions for salvation or not.

And, in Scripture, we never see anyone rejected who came to God in obedience & with the proper attitude. ("Heart" is an old-fashioned term for "attitude".) And, as for Moses, Jeremiah, etc. He made them "offers they couldn't refuse".

And even ISCARIOT was eligible for salvation. He'd decided to betray Jesus because at first he thought Jesus was to tree the Jews from Roman rule, but he didn't know the Scriptural description about Messiah. But Jesus made it known to Judas that He knew of his plot. Right then & there, Judas COULD have repented & asked Jesus to forgive & save him, but we know he didn't. And, of course, he'd seen many of Jesus' miracles.

 

[Reynolds]

The only reason folks are against free will is their too ignorant to fit it with predestination.

Now if it was not my free will to write this, then you are not debating me, but debating God himself.

I don't think any but the most hyper of Calvinist argue the "absolutely no free will" position

 

[MB]

MB,




Hello MB,

Good question, but let's think through this biblically,

Adam died spiritually...what were the effects of that.
eph2
12 That at that time ye were without Christ,

and strangers from the covenants of promise,

having no hope,

and without God in the world:

Spiritually dead men can know many things, but alienated sinners, with no hope, and without God in the world cannot properly welcome any spiritual truth correctly.

That is total depravity...heart ,mind, emotions, will, all effected,
Men can be religious, but twisted and perverted.
That is why the will is never free at any time,

No just another rabbit trail.
MB

 

[Revmitchell]

MB,




Hello MB,

Good question, but let's think through this biblically,

Adam died spiritually...what were the effects of that.
eph2
12 That at that time ye were without Christ,

and strangers from the covenants of promise,

having no hope,

and without God in the world:

Spiritually dead men can know many things, but alienated sinners, with no hope, and without God in the world cannot properly welcome any spiritual truth correctly.

That is total depravity...heart ,mind, emotions, will, all effected,
Men can be religious, but twisted and perverted.
That is why the will is never free at any time,

Having no hope as in no salvation without Christ. Says nothing about total depravity

 

[utilyan]

I see you debating God and His word all the time, Utilyan.

It saddens me deeply.

Thanks for standing up against your evil idea of God. Keep listening to the good coinscience.