The Irrefutable Sabbath Facts

[DHK]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Sadly "the truth" is that all of those sources affirmed the SEVENTH day Sabbath from Eden to the cross. AND THEN they try to BEND the 4th commandment to point it to Sunday - so they can continue to apply the "force of the Law of God" to their man-made tradition of Sunday observance.

Since the Sabbath was made for Israel as a sign of the covenant, you are the one with "the man-made tradition" of sabbath keeping. It was never given to Gentiles. See Exodus 31.

Rather than endless accusations - and then no facts at all to support them.

Why not pick an actual statement made above - and then show where your wild accusation has an ounce of data to go with it?

Why not post something compelling that shows that your point is based on something near the realm of fact?

Why just keep repeating empty accusations? Who is going for that sort of discussion??

Hint: Try quoting something in my actual post instead of the wild accusation that I think that Moody (who claimed to keep Saturday by the way) was not promoting Sunday keeping -

Here are the actual words of Moody:

A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath. Saturday is my day of rest, because I generally preach on Sunday, and I look forward to it as a boy does to a holiday. God knows what we need.[/quote]
Note: "God knows what we need." Moody believed in the principle of one day out of seven for rest. That was the principle of the Sabbath. It had nothing to do with any particular day. He could have chosen Wednesday for a day of rest. It didn't matter. The principle was one day out of seven.
The reason for Sunday was simply that that was the day that the church met. Most people of that era worked a six-day work week. Spend that one day, Sunday, by coming to church. Be faithful in your church attendance. That was the substance of his message.

If the church had decided to meet on Wednesday, he would call for the believers to have a rest on Wednesday and meet on Wednesday. Jesus is our rest, not a day. The principle is rest one day out of seven, and be in church on that day to worship the Lord. That is what he taught.

Because until you choose to support your accusations with fact - it is just you trying to mis-state my own words above - as if they did NOT claim that Moody and the Baptist Confession of Faith and C.,H. Spurgeon were intent on BENDING the 4th commandment after the cross to POINT it to SUNDAY.

They bent nothing. Stop the lies.
The law can't be bent. It is either obeyed or disobeyed.
One must admit, however, that words have meanings, and some more than one.
If you tell me that you are going to church on Saturday, and by that you mean your building, I have no time for your discussion, for a building is not a church. It is not in the Bible as such. The definition was later added to the dictionary. But it is a common definition.
"Christian Sabbath" is a common definition--Sunday, but it is not biblical, as "church building" is not biblical.
IOW Moody, et. al., were not keeping the Sabbath. Even with your disclaimer, you quote from them as if they did. That is wherein your hypocrisy lies.

Each time I say "SUNDAY" -- you come back with a nonsensical "How dare you claim they keep SATURDAY" -- how many times do you intend to make stuff up like that --- while quoting my own post claiming the opposite of what you are trying to claim for me?????

Then why quote him at all. We all (except you) worship on Sunday. We all don't keep the Sabbath. And Moody, despite what he wrote, did not keep the Sabbath. Why are you deceptive then in quoting him, since both Biblicist and I agree with him, but don't agree with keeping the Sabbath?

You quote "you" claiming that I said something about Moody NOT BENDING the 4th commandment to point to Sunday -- after the cross - while the post you quote from ME - says the EXACT OPPOSiTE of what you are trying to claim for me.

Moody doesn't keep the Sabbath. Why do you quote from him or even mention him at all. Your very mention of him as a Sabbath keeper is hypocritical.

Who is that supposed to mislead?

Who is going for that??

Anyone??

And if so - please explain the logic for it.

Or how about your wild claims that you think I think that Sunday keeping is a valid form of Bible Commandment- Sabbath keeping. Surely you had to "notice' that I am SEVENTH-day Adventist and not FIRST-day Adventist. The fiction you are promoting is very difficult to follow each time I OBJECT to their bending the 4th commandment to point to Sunday - you wildly respond as if BY OBJECTION - I am ENDORSING their error.

I am not a Sabbath keeper. Neither is Moody. Moody is wrong in expressing himself in the way that he did.
The Sabbath was given to Israel and only Israel. You don't keep the Sabbath either, as proven by your silence to my post.

 

[The Biblicist]

Sadly "the truth" is that all of those sources affirmed the SEVENTH day Sabbath from Eden to the cross. AND THEN they try to BEND the 4th commandment to point it to Sunday - so they can continue to apply the "force of the Law of God" to their man-made tradition of Sunday observance.

This is just stating the obvious.

You sir are an intentional liar and that is not vicrol but factual as I did present the 1689 Confession of Faith statement on the Sabbath and I did note their qualified interpretation of the Sabbath which repudiates your interpretation of their words. You made no response to the quoted factual evidence presented but simply ignored it because it exposes your lies. But here I will give the FACTS once more:

7.As it is a law of nature, applicable to all, that a proportion of time, determined by God, should be allocated for the worship of God, so, by His Word, He has particularly appointed one day in seven to be kept as a holy Sabbath to Himself.� The commandment to this effect is positive, moral, and of perpetual� application. It is binding upon all men in all ages.� From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ the Sabbath was the last day of the week, but when Christ's resurrection took place it was changed to the first day of the week, which is called the Lord's day.� It is to be continued to the world's end as the Christian Sabbath, the observance of the seventh day being abolished.


FACT#1 - They interpret the Sabbath as a "portion of time" not the Seventh day of the week.

FACT#2 - They interpret it as God appointing "one day in seven" not the Seventh day of the week. Thus their interpretation of the Sabbath does not demand any particular day of the week.

FACT#3 - They attribute the last day of the week from Creation to Christ and the first day of the week from Christ to HIs second coming as the divine perogative of God alone to "appoint."

In other words they interpet the Sabbath Law exactly as I do as a "portion of time" and "one day in seven" rather than "the seventh day of the week." They interpret the application exactly as I do to be God's sovereign perogative to appoint the day from creation to Christ as "the last day of the week" and from Christ to His coming as the "first day of the week."

THEY DO NOT RESTRICT THE SABBATH LAW TO ANY DAY OF THE WEEK but leave it to God to apply it as He pleases and so do I.

Indeed they do - which is why you "quote nothing" from them and "have nothing" that refutes the obvious statement I have made. (as usual).

You are lying again! In my first post to you I quoted their statement verbatim and pointed out their carefully used language which does not support the SDA intepretation or wording of the fourth commandment. However, you PERVERTED their words and interpretation AS USUAL!

 

[BobRyan]

You sir are an intentional liar and that is not vicrol

Sadly - that is yet another example of your acrimony and vitriol being passed off as errr.. umm... (not sure what you want us to imagine when you do that...)

Hopefully you will learn the difference over time.

but factual as I did present the 1689 Confession of Faith statement on the Sabbath and I did note their qualified interpretation of the Sabbath which repudiates your interpretation of their words.

No you have yet to point to any single fact as compared to my words which is not consistent.

Thus we wait for you to produce something other than vitriol.

Still waiting.

... it exposes your lies. But here I will give the FACTS once more:

7.As it is a law of nature, applicable to all, that a proportion of time, determined by God, should be allocated for the worship of God, so, by His Word, He has particularly appointed one day in seven to be kept as a holy Sabbath to Himself.� The commandment to this effect is positive, moral, and of perpetual� application. It is binding upon all men in all ages.� From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ the Sabbath was the last day of the week, but when Christ's resurrection took place it was changed to the first day of the week, which is called the Lord's day.� It is to be continued to the world's end as the Christian Sabbath, the observance of the seventh day being abolished.


FACT#1 - They interpret the Sabbath as a "portion of time" not the Seventh day of the week.

Sadly in your "song and dance", what they state above is that "the first day of the week" and the "last day of the week" are the TWO forms of this 4th commandment observance that THEY proclaim God selecting in their own "one day in seven" rewrite of the 4th commandment.

Even YOU admit that the 7th day of the week kept from Eden to the cross is Saturday in one of your earlier less vitriol ridden posts.

"They claim" -- as you quote " It is binding upon all men in all ages.� From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ the Sabbath was the last day of the week,"

All your vitriol is supposedly locked up in the nonsensical notion that we cannot tell that the last day of a 7 day week is the 7th day, and that their OWN CLAIM that this commandment now points to the first day of the week - Sunday - after the cross -- is A CHANGE!!!

How sad that you are so easily moved to vitriol in service of a nonsensical complaint!

FACT#2 - They interpret it as God appointing "one day in seven" not the Seventh day of the week.

The "edit" the language of the 4th commandment claiming that it only says "keep ONE DAY IN seven" and not "The SEVENTH DAY" as is actually found IN The language of the text itself. I complain that they do that as well.

But for you -- noticing their gap between what the text says and what they "wish" it said - is merely another opportunity for factless vitriol on your part. How "instructive".

Even DHK admits that the commandment does NOT say "just pick ONE DAY IN SEVEN" and that they "just so happened to pick the 7th day" from Eden to the Cross.

How sad that your resort to vitriol is not allowing you to pay close attention to the details on this subject.

But even Spurgeon is admitting that the 7th day of the week (turns out that is the same thing as the LAST day of a 7 day week as we all know by now) is the SAME day kept from Eden to the Cross.

Even you admit to this in some of your earlier less-vitriol-ridden posts.

Where DHK differs is that he objects to their statement that all mankind was under obligation to keep the "last day of the week" (the last day of a 7 day week being the seventh day) from Eden to the cross.

But it is one of the FEW points that they make that I agree with - that all mankind was indeed under obligation from Eden to the cross (and I would say beyond) to keep the "last day of the week" just as THEY admit was the case from Eden to the cross.

Sadly your only response to such details is acrimony and vitriol.

Thus their interpretation of the Sabbath does not demand any particular day of the week.

A point that both DHK and I notice is a flaw in their claim.

A point where THEY themselves admit - that even so - from Eden to the cross it is the LAST day of a 7 day week (because they cannot bring themselves to quote the actual commandment of God and say SEVENTH day so they rephrase it as "LAST day of the WEEK") that is KEPT in honor of the Commandment that says "THE SEVENTH DAY is the Sabbath" Exodus 20. (Admittedly I am quoting God there - but they also refer to that text in their own PROOFS list).

I do not find either "saturday" or "sunday" in their text but they are as you point out careful to avoid the actual wording of God in the actual 4th commandment saying "the SEVENTH day IS the Sabbath" and make it "one day in SEVEN is the Sabbath".

As even you claim that this selection of the VERY DAY is done by God Himself - being the "last day of the week" from Eden to the Cross -

A point you make by saying "THEY DO NOT RESTRICT THE SABBATH LAW TO ANY DAY OF THE WEEK but leave it to God to apply it as He pleases and so do I. "

And then end your own statement with "more acrimony and vitriol" -- "how unexpected".

I quoted their statement verbatim and pointed out their carefully used language which does not support the SDA intepretation or wording of the fourth commandment. !

Sadly in your all-vitriol solution to this topic - you insert wild fictions about the "SDA wording of the fourth commandment" to refer to the fact that we actually QUOTE the 4th commandment and they do not. For it says "The SEVENTH day IS THE Sabbath". (A point that even DHK knows is not an SDA wording - but rather the actual language of the 4th commandment).

And apparently you now admit that the actual wording of the commandment is something they are careful to avoid so that you can claim that the actual wording found IN Ex 20 is the "SDA ... wording of the Commandment".

How sad that as you declare your own flaws - you can "ignore the inconvenient details" by covering it over with acrimony and vitriol.

Why not stick with the actual details "in the text" of both the Bible and the Baptist Confession of Faith - and leave your insults as a separate obligatory post?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I am not a Sabbath keeper. Neither is Moody. Moody is wrong in expressing himself in the way that he did.

1. You cannot blame ME for your opposition to what Moody said about his OWN beliefs.

2. You cannot blame ME for the fact that Moody specifically singles out your own solution to the Sabbath problem - to condemn.


I think this is the part where you struggle with the topic. No wonder it leads you to the nonsensical solution of claiming that Baptist Board rules themselves declares the mere verbatim QUOTE of Moody to be a violation of the "language rules" - when Moody is found to say something that You claim is Wrong for "MOODY" to "EXPRESS HIMSELF" in that way.!! That is an example of the extreme to which a position of error can lead someone. It is outright admitting that the logic in your argument has failed. Obviously in my discussions with everyone else on this topic in venues you do not control -that sort of nonsense is not available to them as an out, so they will need to deal with the actual details of the topic.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Each time I say "SUNDAY" -- you come back with a nonsensical "How dare you claim they keep SATURDAY" -- how many times do you intend to make stuff up like that --- while quoting my own post claiming the opposite of what you are trying to claim for me?????

Originally Posted by DHK
I am not a Sabbath keeper. Neither is Moody. Moody is wrong in expressing himself in the way that he did.

Then why quote him at all. We all (except you) worship on Sunday.

Are you following your own logic at that point?

I complain dozens and dozens of times that these documents are trying to apply the authority of the 4th commandment to Sunday keeping (a point that is undeniable and irrefutable) to which you innexplicably respond with vitriol and acrimony claiming I am a liar -- and that I am somehow supporting Sunday-Sabbath in my strong objection to it.

When I point out the glaring flaw in that knee-jerk resort to vitriol and abuse - you respond with "then don't quote them to me" as if I am to blame for your own lapse in logic and judgment????

What is the thinking there?

How is that an answer to t:jesus:he point above????

Moody, despite what he wrote, did not keep the Sabbath. Why are you deceptive then in quoting him

The lack of logic in that statement is obvious to all.

You first state your strong objection to what Moody actually said.

Then you claim it is "deceptive" for me to QUOTE HIM -- in those areas where what he actually said is something YOU ADMIT you do not agree with.

Does that logic fly with even you?? much less anyone else on this board??

Really ???

Why are you deceptive then in quoting him, since both Biblicist and I agree with him, but don't agree with keeping the Sabbath?

Originally Posted by DHK
I am not a Sabbath keeper. Neither is Moody. Moody is wrong in expressing himself in the way that he did.

You say you are "NOT a Sabbath keeper" and Biblicist says that since they claim to edit/reword the Sabbath to "one day in seven" that HE IS a Sabbath keeper.

I have never see YOU claim that the wording in the 4th commandment agrees with / tolerates/ allows-for "any day in seven" as all the 4th commandment ever required - yet you end with the wild notion that the two of you are in agreement with D.L Moody's (one day in SEVEN) view of the Sabbath commandment which even HE admits applies to all mankind from Eden.!!!

I guess a lot of vitriol and acrimony can be "expected" for noticing that "detail" as "once again" you either blame me for your own lapse of logic and acrimony or blame me for what Moody said or blame me for the fact that the wording IN THE 4th commandment does not say "one day in seven" as you pretend to AGREE with Biblicist and Moody "in conclusion", on the very details I keep pointing out.

Or is this where you resort to accusing me of promoting Sunday as a valid form of Sabbath keeping when Moody or Spurgeon recommend it (again) ?????

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Each time I say "SUNDAY" -- you come back with a nonsensical "How dare you claim they keep SATURDAY" -- how many times do you intend to make stuff up like that --- while quoting my own post claiming the opposite of what you are trying to claim for me?????

Moody doesn't keep the Sabbath. If we agree on that Bob, why on earth would you have ever brought Moody into this discussion in the first place. His beliefs are similar to mine, not yours. We worship on Sunday. He is mistaken in calling the Sabbath Sunday, and therefore doesn't keep the Sabbath.
(You don't either as I have pointed out. Odd how you never have answered that post)

Are you following your own logic at that point?

You don't follow your own logic. If you did, Moody would never be in this discussion from day one, would he?

I complain dozens and dozens of times that these documents are trying to apply the authority of the 4th commandment to Sunday keeping (a point that is undeniable and irrefutable) to which you innexplicably respond with vitriol and acrimony claiming I am a liar -- and that I am somehow supporting Sunday-Sabbath in my strong objection to it.

You are a hypocrite. You didn't complain about them at all. You tried to use them to your own justification--as in "see, your own baptist brethren believe in keeping the Sabbath...it is an official Baptist doctrine in most of your circles." That was your intent. Now that it has backfired you are running the opposite direction.

When I point out the glaring flaw in that knee-jerk resort to vitriol and abuse - you respond with "then don't quote them to me" as if I am to blame for your own lapse in logic and judgment????

You didn't point out any glaring flaw. You pointed out your own hypocrisy by using Baptist material and trying to justify belief in the Sabbath. It didn't work. Now you are trying to justify what you did. What you did was deceptive and hypocritical. As far as Moody was concerned it was slanderous.

What is the thinking there?

How is that an answer to t:jesus:he point above????

The lack of logic in that statement is obvious to all.

You first state your strong objection to what Moody actually said.

Then you claim it is "deceptive" for me to QUOTE HIM -- in those areas where what he actually said is something YOU ADMIT you do not agree with.

I did quote him. Don't you pay attention?
1. He urges people to come to church faithfully on Sunday
(But we know that Sunday is the first day of the week and not the Sabbath), albeit Moody defines Sunday as the Sabbath; this is where he is wrong.
2. He says that he takes his rest (one day in seven), on Saturday because his work is in preaching, and Sunday is when he works the hardest. He doesn't keep "His" sabbath, and he really doesn't keep "yours." He believes that the sabbath is a day of rest, and day of rest, but preferably that day that can be used to worship God.
3. Thus you have used him, and deceptively so to try to justify your opinion. You are wrong.

You say you are "NOT a Sabbath keeper" and Biblicist says that since they claim to edit/reword the Sabbath to "one day in seven" that HE IS a Sabbath keeper.

He defines sabbath differently than I do. The dictionary allows it. He defines sabbath along the lines that Moody does. You don't.

I have never see YOU claim that the wording in the 4th commandment agrees with / tolerates/ allows-for "any day in seven" as all the 4th commandment ever required - yet you end with the wild notion that the two of you are in agreement with D.L Moody's (one day in SEVEN) view of the Sabbath commandment which even HE admits applies to all mankind from Eden.!!!

I am in agreement with him in principle--the principle that he sets forth that we encourage all our members to be in church, in the services on Sundays. I don't need to call it the sabbath to agree with that principle.

The "sabbath" was given to Israel, and only Israel, as a sign of the covenant. It seems one would learn that from Scripture. Study Exodus 31.

I guess a lot of vitriol and acrimony can be "expected" for noticing that "detail" as "once again" you either blame me for your own lapse of logic and acrimony or blame me for what Moody said or blame me for the fact that the wording IN THE 4th commandment does not say "one day in seven" as you pretend to AGREE with Biblicist and Moody "in conclusion", on the very details I keep pointing out.

The principle of one in seven comes from Genesis. But in Genesis there is no command to keep the Sabbath. The only command to keep the Sabbath is given to the Israelites.

Or is this where you resort to accusing me of promoting Sunday as a valid form of Sabbath keeping when Moody or Spurgeon recommend it (again) ?????

Why would I quote them. I quote Scripture but you don't pay attention.
The Scripture is specific regarding the Sabbath. It was given only to Israel.

 

[The Biblicist]

No you have yet to point to any single fact as compared to my words which is not consistent.

Look at your own post! You are admitting that their interpretation is not your interpretation of the Sabbath Law!! The very fact that you condemn and attempt to correct their careful langauge is an admission they do not believe what SDA teaches - Period, end of story. However, even though you admit it by your attempt to correct their interpretative words you don't have the integrity or honesty to simply say they do not teach what SDA teaches on the Sabbath.

Likewise, with Moody and Spurgeon. You attempt to use SOME of their words against us, just as you do the 1689 Confession to claim they sided with your view when in fact they do not when their words are honestly interpreted in their own context. However, you don't have the intellectual honesty to admit that. You are simply a dishonest human being.

 

[BobRyan]

You last all-vitriol post - of no facts actually quoted - .... noted.

However we can all happily note that you claim agreement with DHK. For example DHK freely admits that there is no such thing as the 4th commandment watered down to say "one day in 7" - but rather it is "the SEVENTH day is the SABBATH" (God's Word not mine) and that those who claim they can water it down to observe it as "one day in seven" are not at all telling the truth!

So as I said to DHK

I have never see YOU claim that the wording in the 4th commandment agrees with / tolerates/ allows-for "any day in seven" as all the 4th commandment ever required - yet you end with the wild notion that the two of you are in agreement with D.L Moody's (one day in SEVEN) view of the Sabbath commandment which even HE admits applies to all mankind from Eden.!!!

To that specific "SEVENTH day is the Sabbath" vs the wild fiction of "one day in seven is the Sabbath commandment"

Your response is...

I am in agreement with him in principle-

This is "yet another example" of why you are avoiding "the details" in this discussion. Who can blame you when you jump in with responses like that - to a point about your view being dead wrong and DHK even insisting that your "one day in seven" fiction it totally wrong for the 4th commandment.

How can you keep doing this and be happy with it???

I point this out to DHK

You say you are "NOT a Sabbath keeper" and Biblicist says that since they claim to edit/reword the Sabbath to "one day in seven" that HE IS a Sabbath keeper.

DHK responds

He defines sabbath differently than I do.

Hmmm - then How does GOD define the Sabbath? Fourth commandment anyone? Oh no wait YOU claim that to quote the WORDS of God's 4th commandment is to give the SDA WORDING of it. Are you still sticking with that failed solution?

Apparently DHK is willing to admit (given the proper encouragement) that the 4th commandment IS the Sabbath Commandment and GOD DOES define it as "the seventh day is the Sabbath" IN HIS COMMANDMENT. You are not willing to do that.

DHK calls this "agreement" and so apparently do you. All the while self-conflictedly claiming you do not define the Sabbath the same way!

Hello!! Do you really think that name-calling and vitriol will solve the problem you have with those conflicted statements?
in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The principle of one in seven comes from Genesis.

We both know that "just keep one day in seven" is no more found in Genesis 1 than is the fiction "just pick a god and worship him - as long as you only pick one".

How can you sell out to the 4th commandment being nothing more than "pick one day in seven"??

If that were true you would have to join Moody in claiming you are a die hard Sabbath keeper since that is your non-Bible definition for Sabbath.

How can you claim NOT to even be keeping "one day in seven" in your war against God's 4th commandment?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Look at your own post! You are admitting that their interpretation is not your interpretation of the Sabbath Law!!

I have said many dozens of times that I object to their fluid Sabbath that points to the 7th day of the week from Eden to the cross but is then changed to point to the first day of the week after the cross.

I repeatedly point out that the point I DO agree with - is their insistence that the FOURTH COMMANDMENT (as you find in Moody's sermon) is STILL binding on all mankind and was binding from Eden on all mankind.

How many dozens of more times would I need to post this detail -- before you admitted to this being my position?

The very fact that you condemn and attempt to correct their careful language is an admission they do not believe what SDA teaches

Sadly for your own argument - you claim that the WORDING of the Sabbath commandment should be "one day in seven" -- instead of "The SEVENTH day is the Sabbath" (4ht commandment) is just the SDA WORDING - that you are so at war against.

Is this your way out of that???

IS DHK going to jump in and claim that "The Seventh day is the Sabbath" is not the Bible in Exodus 20 but is the "SDA Wording" not God's Wording - and that it should be "one day in seven" to fit man made tradition??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

So that explains why I CONTINUALLY OBJECT to Moody and the Baptist Confession of Faith BENDING the Sabbath commandment after the cross as you point out above.

Where is any data at all to support your empty accusation that in my OBJECTING to it - I APPROVE IT?????!!!

Why keep that up as if it works?

You qoute Moody claiming HE is keeping the Sabbath as Sunday -- and you quote me COMPLAINING that Moody is bending the Sabbath and is wrong to do so - in making those statements.

And then you PRETEND that Moody's words are MY WORDS and that I ENDORSE the very error he makes that I COMPLAIN about.

Who falls for that?"

...

So then what "other reason" do you have for quoting Moody as if I am the one speaking - and as if I am the one endorsing his claim that Sunday keeping is the right way to keep the 4th commandment after the cross - when that is the very thing I complain about in his theology?????????

Each time I say "SUNDAY" -- you come back with a nonsensical "How dare you claim they keep SATURDAY" -- how many times do you intend to make stuff up like that --- while quoting my own post claiming the opposite of what you are trying to claim for me?????

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHK
I am not a Sabbath keeper. Neither is Moody. Moody is wrong in expressing himself in the way that he did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DHK
Then why quote him at all. We all (except you) worship on Sunday.

Are you following your own logic at that point?

I complain dozens and dozens of times that these documents are trying to apply the authority of the 4th commandment to Sunday keeping (a point that is undeniable and irrefutable) to which you innexplicably respond with vitriol and acrimony claiming I am a liar -- and that I am somehow supporting Sunday-Sabbath in my strong objection to it.

When I point out the glaring flaw in that knee-jerk resort to vitriol and abuse - you respond with "then don't quote them to me" as if I am to blame for your own lapse in logic and judgment????

What is the thinking there?

How is that an answer to the point above????

You are a hypocrite. You didn't complain about them at all.

Apparently you are addressing yourself - since you sent me a copy of my own post where I DID complain about their bending Sabbath commandment and apply it to Sunday - and claimed this as your shining example of a "language violation" for the Baptist Board.

How can you be happy with those tactics?

You can go back as far as you like - for many months if not more I have been stating the points where I agree and where I differ with the Baptist Confession of Faith - and for many months I have been complaining about their bending the Sabbath Commandment to point it Sunday. Or is this the point where you would like to join Biblicist in denying that the 4th Commandment wording is in fact God's Word of the Sabbath Commandment? (I may need to ask this question a dozen more times to get a response... possibly)

We both know this is true - not sure why you think that "pretending not to notice" is going to fly.

You didn't point out any glaring flaw.

Your lack of interest in the actual facts there is glaring!

As for D.L Moody - I pointed out above that when I QUOTE him you argue that HIS WORDS are mine and how dare I claim WHAT HE CLAIMED about his own view of the Sabbath. But I have always said that I agree that the 4th commandment is still binding - but I do NOT agree that it can be applied to Sunday.

We all knew that. Not sure why you are intent on making stuff up as if I am going to go for that.

I did quote him. Don't you pay attention?
1. He urges people to come to church faithfully on Sunday
(But we know that Sunday is the first day of the week

hence my complaint about it.

Not sure what part of this is not registering.

Agree with 4th commandment still binding.

Object to bending 4th commandment to point it to Sunday.

This is just not that hard.

Why keep making stuff up??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

We both know that "just keep one day in seven" is no more found in Genesis 1 than is the fiction "just pick a god and worship him - as long as you only pick one".

How can you sell out to the 4th commandment being nothing more than "pick one day in seven"??

If that were true you would have to join Moody in claiming you are a die hard Sabbath keeper since that is your non-Bible definition for Sabbath.

I agree with Moody, and especially the Bible, a fact that even science bears out, that man needs one day out of seven in his work week to rest. Moody believed this. So do I. Moody worked on Sunday and "chose" to rest on Saturday but was not bound to. He could have chose another day.

How can you claim NOT to even be keeping "one day in seven" in your war against God's 4th commandment?

It is a principle taught not a commandment kept. If you realize that you would be better off.
I suggest you try to keep the Sabbath in a biblical manner like I suggest and see how far you get. You, for some reason, don't want to respond to that post. Why is that?

 

[The Biblicist]

You last all-vitriol post - of no facts actually quoted - .... noted.

The old "pit" one person against another person routine when you can't deal with the facts. The facts are that you have been and presently are continuing to pervert, abuse, misinterpret the words of Moody, Spurgeon and the 1689 Baptists and your admissions that you do not agree with their entire statements manifest that clearly and YET you continue to act as though they take your position - just demonish on your part.

However we can all happily note that you claim agreement with DHK.

We are in more agreement with each other than we are with you. Neither of us accepts your interpretation. Both of us accept the first day of the week as the Lord's Day and both of us agree that the Seventh Day of the week was the sign of the OLD COVENANT which was abolished. Neither of us deny the ten commandments are valid principles for daily living to define the nature of sin. Neither of us deny the application of the fourth commandment but simply interpret it differently. But our positions are far more in agreement than with yours.

We both know your tactic of pitting one against the other is simply to avoid admitting you have and are being dishonest with the words of Moody, Spurgeon and the 1689 Baptists. Thus, by using this very tactic rather than admitting you are abusing these men's words is again showing that you are a dishonest man.

 

[BobRyan]

both of us agree that the Seventh Day of the week was the sign of the OLD COVENANT which was abolished. Neither of us deny the ten commandments are valid principles for daily living to define the nature of sin. Neither of us deny the application of the fourth commandment but simply interpret it differently.

1. Do you both claim that "The Seventh day is the Sabbath" as GOD stated in in Ex 20 -- is merely the "SDA Wording" of the commandment?

2. Do you both claim that it is ok to claim that the 4th commandment is STILL binding on Christians today as long as it is bent to NO longer say "the SEVENTH day is the Sabbath"??

I would like to know how solid your agreement is on this one single point.

I have some examples of your posts where you make it appear that you in fact contradict each other on these basic points - but if you now say you are in agreement on the 4th commandment please just affirm the two points above - and I will take that as DHK's new position. (I think Biblicist may have been settled on the two points above all along).

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

1. Do you both claim that "The Seventh day is the Sabbath" as GOD stated in in Ex 20 -- is merely the "SDA Wording" of the commandment?

Never denied that the "seventh day" is the Sabbath only denied the fourth commandment says the "seventh day OF THE WEEK' is the sabbath. Never denied it was APPLIED by God to the seventh day OF THE WEEK and later APPLIED by God to the first day of the week as the first day OF THE WEEK or for that matter, ANY DAY of the week could be the Seventh day after six working days and prior to six working days. Don't say I am contradicting myself here. If you say that you are not understanding what I have just said. The Sabbath is THE SEVENTH DAY but there is no commandment in God's word that says the seventh day Sabbath is determined by any calendar week but only in connection with six preceding working days. The Biblical connection is with six preceding working days rather than with any human calander week. Whatever day in any human CALANDER WEEK God applies the the Sabbath to is THE SEVENTH DAY in regard to six preceding working days. The Sabsbath is ONLY the SEVENTH DAY in regard to Six previous days of work and ONLY in that context and never in the context of ANY HUMAN CALENDAR week. Just because human calendar weeks are patterned after the first seven days does not demand God must apply the Seventh Day Sabbath in regard to any human calander week but only in regard to six preceding working days which God can sovereingly apply to our calendar weeks any where he Pleases.

 

[The Biblicist]

Never denied that the "seventh day" is the Sabbath only denied the fourth commandment says the "seventh day OF THE WEEK' is the sabbath. Never denied it was APPLIED by God to the seventh day OF THE WEEK and later APPLIED by God to the first day of the week as the first day OF THE WEEK or for that matter, ANY DAY of the week could be the Seventh day after six working days and prior to six working days. Don't say I am contradicting myself here. If you say that you are not understanding what I have just said. The Sabbath is THE SEVENTH DAY but there is no commandment in God's word that says the seventh day Sabbath is determined by any calendar week but only in connection with six preceding working days. The Biblical connection is with six preceding working days rather than with any human calander week. Whatever day in any human CALANDER WEEK God applies the the Sabbath to is THE SEVENTH DAY in regard to six preceding working days. The Sabsbath is ONLY the SEVENTH DAY in regard to Six previous days of work and ONLY in that context and never in the context of ANY HUMAN CALENDAR week. Just because human calendar weeks are patterned after the first seven days does not demand God must apply the Seventh Day Sabbath in regard to any human calander week but only in regard to six preceding working days which God can sovereingly apply to our calendar weeks any where he Pleases.

My point is that the designation "the seventh day" Sabbath is contrived by God in regard only to six preivous days of work NOT in regard to any calendar week or particular dates or days in a calendar arrangement. God diid not say the Sabbath is defined by any particular day in Calendar arrangement as no calendar arrangements existed in Genesis 1-2. God defined the Sabbath in regard to SIX WORKING DAYS PRECEDING IT and thus God could APPLY IT in that connection ANYWHERE in calendar arrangement regardless of 24 hour days or longer days of weeks, months, years and that is precisely what he did in Leviticus 23-24 and what He did in regard to the first day of the week. The first day of the week became the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH in regard to the Genesis CONNECTION or IDENTIFICATION with six preceding days of work.

 

[Yeshua1]

I have said many dozens of times that I object to their fluid Sabbath that points to the 7th day of the week from Eden to the cross but is then changed to point to the first day of the week after the cross.

I repeatedly point out that the point I DO agree with - is their insistence that the FOURTH COMMANDMENT (as you find in Moody's sermon) is STILL binding on all mankind and was binding from Eden on all mankind.

How many dozens of more times would I need to post this detail -- before you admitted to this being my position?


Sadly for your own argument - you claim that the WORDING of the Sabbath commandment should be "one day in seven" -- instead of "The SEVENTH day is the Sabbath" (4ht commandment) is just the SDA WORDING - that you are so at war against.

Is this your way out of that???

IS DHK going to jump in and claim that "The Seventh day is the Sabbath" is not the Bible in Exodus 20 but is the "SDA Wording" not God's Wording - and that it should be "one day in seven" to fit man made tradition??

in Christ,

Bob

sabbath was iven to God for his people of isreal, the Jews, to be required to be observed by them under Old covenant, so to have what you want in this, you either Must be Jewish Chrsitian who has chosen to observe it still, or still stuck under Old Coveneant via the Law realationship with God!

Which one is it?

 

[The Biblicist]

sabbath was iven to God for his people of isreal, the Jews, to be required to be observed by them under Old covenant, so to have what you want in this, you either Must be Jewish Chrsitian who has chosen to observe it still, or still stuck under Old Coveneant via the Law realationship with God!

Which one is it?

Your argument is flawed. Even Christ recognized that Genesis 2 was the "sabbath" and the time the Sabbath was "made" (Mk. 2:27) long before Moses and the Old Covenant and that it was made for "man" not merely the "Jews" as no Jew existed when the Sabbath was "made."

If Jesus can be trusted as a competent interpreter of Moses then three things are indisputable facts that cannot be denied:

1. The Seventh Day Rest in Genesis 2 is the "Sabbath" - Mk. 2:27
2. The Sabbath was "made" at this point in Genesis 2 not in exodus or Deuternomy
3. The Sabbath was made "for man" not merely one race of men because when it was made no Jews existed.

The Post-de-facto of human calendars and the calender week cannot be used to define the nature of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is defined as the seventh day NOT OF ANY WEEK defined by human calendars as Post-reactions but in regard to SIX PRECEDING WORKING DAYS and as a day sanctified/set apart as a day of REST. Hence, the Sabbath is defined in its relationship with six preceding days OUTSIDE OF ANY EXISTENCE OF ANY KIND OF CALENDAR computations.

 

[Yeshua1]

Your argument is flawed. Even Christ recognized that Genesis 2 was the "sabbath" and the time the Sabbath was "made" (Mk. 2:27) long before Moses and the Old Covenant and that it was made for "man" not merely the "Jews" as no Jew existed when the Sabbath was "made."

If Jesus can be trusted as a competent interpreter of Moses then three things are indisputable facts that cannot be denied:

1. The Seventh Day Rest in Genesis 2 is the "Sabbath" - Mk. 2:27
2. The Sabbath was "made" at this point in Genesis 2 not in exodus or Deuternomy
3. The Sabbath was made "for man" not merely one race of men because when it was made no Jews existed.

The Post-de-facto of human calendars and the calender week cannot be used to define the nature of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is defined as the seventh day NOT OF ANY WEEK defined by human calendars as Post-reactions but in regard to SIX PRECEDING WORKING DAYS and as a day sanctified/set apart as a day of REST. Hence, the Sabbath is defined in its relationship with six preceding days OUTSIDE OF ANY EXISTENCE OF ANY KIND OF CALENDAR computations.

understand what you are saying here, but the truth is that the SDA wants to have us in the Church Age placed back under the sabbath defined for Isreal proper itself, and that IS NOT what God did to us under the New Covenant, as we now do observe anfd worship the Lord on the "lord's day!"

 

[BobRyan]

sabbath was iven to God for his people of isreal, the Jews, to be required to be observed by them under Old covenant, so to have what you want in this, you either Must be Jewish Chrsitian who has chosen to observe it still, or still stuck under Old Coveneant via the Law realationship with God!

Which one is it?

D.L. Moody claimed neither one.

Spurgeon claimed neither one.

The Baptist Confession of Faith claims "neither one"

I claim "neither one".

They all claim that the Sabbath commandment given by God and written in Exodus 20 -- applied from Eden to the cross for all mankind.

They all claim that the day was "the last day of the week" - the "seven day week" making it Saturday - "The seventh day" as Exodus 20:8-11 states it.

When you try to take a swipe at SDAs using such a broad brush you condemn a good portion of the Baptist church.

Be more selective in your attacks on SDAs.

in Christ,

Bob