sabbath was Saturday, for israel, never changed, but NT Church not on it, but on the Lord's day, Sunday, ALL those you keep on quoting agree with me on that!
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The Irrefutable Sabbath Facts
- Thread starter The Biblicist
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sabbath was Saturday, for israel, never changed, but NT Church not on it, but on the Lord's day, Sunday, ALL those you keep on quoting agree with me on that!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
That much is true of what you said. Even the non-SDA sources like the "Baptist Confession of Faith" and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" that I reference will agree that the Sabbath in the OT was Saturday, "made for mankind" Mark 2:27 and that includes Israel.
And of course you quote no text at all saying "week day 1 - Sunday is the Lord's day" -- other than quoting yourself.
And we all know why you have not text for that point.
Because there is no text that says it.
in Christ,
Bob
No, they don't agree with Saturday being made for all mankind. Anyone who reads them know they did not make that connection between Mark 2:27 and Genesis 2. They simply acknolwedged that the Jews applied the Sabbath law to Saturday. They obviously believed the Sabbath Law could be applied to another day or else they would not have done so and taught it was changed from Saturday to Sunday. Stop putting words in their mouths that they never said!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
1. They agree that Sabbath was "MADE for mankind". Mark 2:27
2. They agree that the SABBATH day in Mark 2:27 as Christ spoke those words - was in fact Saturday.
3. The agree that from Eden to the cross it was the same unchanged day - (although some called it by the unbiblical term the "LAST day of the week" contrasted "by them" to the FIRST day of the week - Sunday)
And as I have said about 2 dozen times so far - they suppose that it was "Bent" after the cross to point to week-day-1.
Wrong. In fact the Baptist Confession of Faith specifically references Gen 2:3 as the 4th commandment.
And all of those listed admit that the 4th commandment is what Christ is talking about in Mark 2:27.
Your desire to reject the obvious is not helping your argument.
Wrong.
As even R.C. Sproul, D.L. Moody et al admit - the day "as God gave it' was Saturday in the OT - it was not some man-made idea of "the Jews" selecting that day.
Obviously the Bible says "Tomorrow IS the Sabbath" Ex 16 as the statement that GOD makes selecting the very day. Not the Jews selecting it.
Again - your choice to deny the obvious does not help your argument as much as you may have at first imagined.
You are misleading in your statements since we BOTH know that you are informed enough to know that the actual text says:
"[FONT="]7. As it is the law of nature, that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, be set apart for the worship of God, so by his Word, in a positive moral, and perpetual commandment, binding all men, in all ages, he hath particularly appointed one day in seven for a sabbath to be kept holy unto him, which from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ was changed into the first day of the week"
Thus it is claimed that it was THE SAME DAY from "[/FONT][FONT="] from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ was the last day of the week" So unless you are claiming that Jews created the World - this is not a Jewish selection of the day. And what is worse for your argument - they put the LAST day of the week (the 7th day of the week) in direct contrast to the FIRST day of the week - Sunday. Making that ONE unchanged day from Eden until the Cross Saturday. And while they hope to side step the commandments "Seventh day" by the unbiblical term "LAST day of the week" instead of the biblical term "Seventh day of the week" - even so they unwittingly admit that it is Saturday, once we admit the obvious about their claim regarding SUNDAY the FIRST day of the week not being the LAST day of the week. Obviously.
They claim it was the SAME day from Eden to the cross -
[/FONT]
Your any-ol-excuse-will-do model is not serving you as well as you may have at first imagined.
More facts - less smoke please.
in Christ,
Bob
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Bob, Biblicist is right. You have no right to use these documents and make them say what you would like them to say when they never had that intention. If you want to make an argument make it from the Bible. It seems you have no idea what Moody et. al. were talking about. You have quoted from them for so long that you are convinced that they believed in the Sabbath when they never did in the first place.
Now your comments are just slander and nothing more. If you post slander against these men you will earn yourself infraction points for slander is not permitted. What they taught is faithfulness to church on Sundays. Because they called the Sabbath or defined it as Sunday does not make it the Sabbath. It was simply redefined. That doesn't mean they believed in the sabbath and you cannot use that to your advantage. Don't slander their names or their beliefs.
Moody even put a caveat at the end of his message distancing himself from all SDA beliefs.
http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Voice/Moody.Ten.Commandments.html
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Biblicists complaints were totally debunked here -
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2017339&postcount=84
I provide irrefutable claims affirmed in those documents and Biblicist knows it.
You and I both know that Moody would deny your statment, that Biblicist would deny your statement and that C.H. who edited the Baptist Confession of Faith would deny your statement above.
What is worse for your wild assertion is that all them do affirm not only the Sabbath commandment - but that it was Saturday "the last day of the week" in the OT.
As I have pointed out dozens of times their error is not in affirming the continued validity of the 4th commandment - their error is in bending it by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.
You also know that is true as well - no way to twist it.
That is plain and simple - no way to twist it.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The post - so irrefutable - even Biblicist had nowhere to go. These points have been raise repeatedly and not one solid response to them in favor of bending the Sabbath to week-day-1 or breaking it altogether.
[FONT="] they all accept the Bible fact that Saturday was the Sabbath (the documents call it the "last day of the week" from creation to the cross) as God gave it in Eden and reminded Israel of it in Ex 16 "Tomorrow is the Sabbath" and repeated it in Ex 20:11.
They all admit that it was fulfilled as God gave it - by keeping the actual 7th day of the week (If one is going to go "sola scriptura" on this doctrine)
[/FONT][FONT="]
In the Six points of the Sabbath doctrine - those sources accept the first 4. And then they try and "Bend the Sabbath" to point to "week-day 1".
1. Made for mankind in Gen 2:1-3, According to Mark 2:27 and Exodus 20:11. as the "last day of the week" - ie. the seventh day of the week
2. Applicable to all mankind even for eternity in the future - Is 66:23.
3. Kept by gentiles in both OT (Isaiah 56) and NT (Acts 13, 17, 18)
4. Still binding on the saints today (James 2 - Heb 4 there remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God)
5. Cannot be "bent" to point to "week-day-1" by the traditions of man - Mark 7:6-13.
6. The language of Ex 20:11 and Gen 2:3 specify God’s own selected seventh-day of the week – not the mythical and much imagined “any-ol day in seven” idea. Ex 16 “Tomorrow is the Sabbath” – not “any day in seven you wish”.
Point 6 is demonstrated not only in the language and historic facts in Exodus 16 – showing that God selects the very day that is to be considered the 7th day – and no other, but also in the Genesis 1 and 2 fact that the seventh day in Genesis 2 is actually the SECOND day of Adam’s week! God’s selection for the 7th day was not the 7th day of Adam’s week – but of Creation week as seen by God! [/FONT][FONT="]God Himself selects the very day based on his observation of earth - not man's observation.[/FONT][FONT="]
· - note if you swap week-day-1 for 7 – then the week only has week-day-1. Not week day 7 since the only thing made on week day 7 – was week-day 7.[/FONT][FONT="]
DHK you object to the first 4 but may well accept point 5.
The many other non-SDA sources, groups, documents I have listed here accept the first 4 and reject point 5.
I accept all 5 - as do the Seventh-day Baptists and others.
This is irrefutable.
If your only response to these irrefutable facts is to make-up some half-baked "story" about a mythical claim by me that I claimed that these sources were keeping Saturday as the Sabbath after the church tradition bent it to point to week-day 1 - then so be it for your myth. If that is what you have to make up, if that is the story you need to tell youself - to keep believing false doctrine when it comes to the Ten Commandments. I suppose such methods are all that is left when you go down that road.
in Christ,
Bob[/FONT]
[FONT="] they all accept the Bible fact that Saturday was the Sabbath (the documents call it the "last day of the week" from creation to the cross) as God gave it in Eden and reminded Israel of it in Ex 16 "Tomorrow is the Sabbath" and repeated it in Ex 20:11.
They all admit that it was fulfilled as God gave it - by keeping the actual 7th day of the week (If one is going to go "sola scriptura" on this doctrine)
[/FONT][FONT="]
In the Six points of the Sabbath doctrine - those sources accept the first 4. And then they try and "Bend the Sabbath" to point to "week-day 1".
1. Made for mankind in Gen 2:1-3, According to Mark 2:27 and Exodus 20:11. as the "last day of the week" - ie. the seventh day of the week
2. Applicable to all mankind even for eternity in the future - Is 66:23.
3. Kept by gentiles in both OT (Isaiah 56) and NT (Acts 13, 17, 18)
4. Still binding on the saints today (James 2 - Heb 4 there remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God)
5. Cannot be "bent" to point to "week-day-1" by the traditions of man - Mark 7:6-13.
6. The language of Ex 20:11 and Gen 2:3 specify God’s own selected seventh-day of the week – not the mythical and much imagined “any-ol day in seven” idea. Ex 16 “Tomorrow is the Sabbath” – not “any day in seven you wish”.
Point 6 is demonstrated not only in the language and historic facts in Exodus 16 – showing that God selects the very day that is to be considered the 7th day – and no other, but also in the Genesis 1 and 2 fact that the seventh day in Genesis 2 is actually the SECOND day of Adam’s week! God’s selection for the 7th day was not the 7th day of Adam’s week – but of Creation week as seen by God! [/FONT][FONT="]God Himself selects the very day based on his observation of earth - not man's observation.[/FONT][FONT="]
· - note if you swap week-day-1 for 7 – then the week only has week-day-1. Not week day 7 since the only thing made on week day 7 – was week-day 7.[/FONT][FONT="]
DHK you object to the first 4 but may well accept point 5.
The many other non-SDA sources, groups, documents I have listed here accept the first 4 and reject point 5.
I accept all 5 - as do the Seventh-day Baptists and others.
This is irrefutable.
If your only response to these irrefutable facts is to make-up some half-baked "story" about a mythical claim by me that I claimed that these sources were keeping Saturday as the Sabbath after the church tradition bent it to point to week-day 1 - then so be it for your myth. If that is what you have to make up, if that is the story you need to tell youself - to keep believing false doctrine when it comes to the Ten Commandments. I suppose such methods are all that is left when you go down that road.
in Christ,
Bob[/FONT]
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I can tell that the pro-sunday group has run out of facts when their only agreed upon response is the wild fiction that I have ever said that Moody or Spurgeon were not keeping Sunday as the Sabbath or that they believed that the Saturday Sabbath as given by God in the actual Bible was not changed by the church tradition to point to Sunday. Even my "Two Baptist view combined" thread started long ago argues that I do not agree with those sources that try to bend Sabbath to point to week-day-1. This is beyond dispute.
When you find an argument totally lacking facts such that all that is needed is "A straw-man story" that is contrary to all I have said in that regard (as if I ever adopted your straw man), because that is the one common ground between both anti-Seventh-day-Sabbath groups - well then that straw man will do as well as any other.
in Christ,
Bob
When you find an argument totally lacking facts such that all that is needed is "A straw-man story" that is contrary to all I have said in that regard (as if I ever adopted your straw man), because that is the one common ground between both anti-Seventh-day-Sabbath groups - well then that straw man will do as well as any other.
in Christ,
Bob
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
You make that post very soon after Yeshuah1 quoted me saying
======================
In the Six points of the Sabbath doctrine - those sources accept the first 4. And then they try and "Bend the Sabbath" to point to "week-day 1".
1. Made for mankind in Gen 2:1-3, According to Mark 2:27 and Exodus 20:11.
2. Applicable to all mankind even for eternity in the future - Is 66:23.
3. Kept by gentiles in both OT (Isaiah 56) and NT (Acts 13, 17, 18)
4. Still binding on the saints today (James 2 - Heb 4 there remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God)
5. Cannot be "bent" to point to "week-day-1" by the traditions of man - Mark 7:6-13.
6. The language of Ex 20:11 and Gen 2:3 specify God’s own selected seventh-day of the week – not the mythical and much imagined “any-ol day in seven” idea. Ex 16 “Tomorrow is the Sabbath” – not “any day in seven you wish”.
Point 6 is demonstrated not only in the language and historic facts in Exodus 16 – showing that God selects the very day that is to be considered the 7th day – and no other, but also in the Genesis 1 and 2 fact that the seventh day in Genesis 2 is actually the SECOND day of Adam’s week! God’s selection for the 7th day was not the 7th day of Adam’s week – but of Creation week as seen by God! God Himself selects the very day based on his observation of earth - not man's observation.
=======================
Mmm my claim again "In the Six points of the Sabbath doctrine - those sources accept the first 4. And then they try and "Bend the Sabbath" to point to "week-day 1".
And then the factless accusation that says "You have quoted from them for so long that you are convinced that they believed in the Sabbath".
Where the definition for Sabbath in the wild accusation is "Saturday the Seventh day of the week" as IF I claimed that these sources were affirming the SEVENTH day - Saturday as the Sabbath, even though I am quoted repeatedly as complaining that they BEND Sabbath to point to Sunday.
Would two dozen MORE times of my posting that I object to their BENDING the Sabbath commandment to point to Sunday help clear that up?
I doubt it because a straw man such as the one above is hard to let go of - hence it keeps showing up.
in Christ,
Bob
What are you talking about? You may not agreed with my responses but don't claim that I had "no where to go" because that is simply a false hood.
1. I denied any restricted application to any given day "OF THE WEEK" in the creation or fourth commandment.
2. I stated the PRINCIPLE behind the fourth is that the seventh "yom" in a pattern of seven is the Sabbath.
3. I stated that the Sabbath law and God's application cannot be restricted to the seventh day "of the week" as that contradicts God's own application of the Sabbath law elsewhere.
4. That the seventh day "of the week" does not contradict the Sabbath principle and is how it was applied to the Jews weekly.
5. That the Jewish application does not exhaust the application of the Sabbath law and it can be applied to other periods of time including other days "of the week" without violating its principle.
6. God did make a permenant change from his Jewish application to the church application on the first day of the week.
Now, you go right on and rant and rave how my position can't be true according to YOUR LOGIC and YOUR INTERPRETATION and that is all fine and good, but don't tell me or others that I or Moody or Spurgeon or DHK must follow your twisted logic simply because we agree with some aspects with you.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
You are welcome to deny all you want -
My point was that these sources I quote use the term "last day of the week" (in the case of the Baptist Confession of Faith) and "seventh day of the week" in other cases. I pointed this out to you already - and you had "no place to go" but to differ with them.
You are stuck with your "no particular day of the week" as if that makes any sense at all since the Gen 2:3 text says "THE seventh day" and it is the day made in Gen 2:3 for all mankind not "A seventh day of your choosing".
This was done on Adam SECOND day - not his SEVENTH. God's Creation week Sabbath was independent of Adam "working six days first".
Here again - you have nowhere to go since even in Gen 2:3 it is the very day that is blessed - not "the general idea of one day after six days of work" because Adam had not worked six days on week-day SEVEN - the Seventh day. So the entire concept of the 7 day week from Creation onward (as even the BAptist Confession of Faith admits) relies on Adam resting that SECOND day and knowing that it is actually the SEVENTH day of creation week. So he cannot simply rest "every second day" after that first Sabbath. He must work six days before "the next one". Hence it is the very DAY that is selected and not "the general idea of any ol day in seven).
Yes your own "any ol day will do" extra-biblical idea is not found in Gen 2:3. It does not say "and God blessed the idea of any day in seven as long as you work six days first".
It is Adam's SECOND day - no "working another six days FIRST after day 6 of creation week and THEN getting around to Adam's own 7th day".
Rather in Gen 2:3 God selects the very DAY even though it is only Adam's SECOND day of life - instead of saying "o well - just select a 7th day as it pleases you once you have worked your firs six days Adam".
Even your own "Baptist Confession of Faith" claims it is "The LAST day OF THE WEEK from Creation to the Cross" and then claims that by contrast the "First day of the week" is being kept AS the Sabbath of the 4th commandment from the cross onward.
Here again - you have no place to go.
[FONT="]In Mark 2:27 the day is "MADE for mankind" when MADE - in Gen 2:3.
Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
Gen 2:3
Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which Godcreated and made[FONT="]. [/FONT]B
Your response appears to be "oh no Lord! Never THE Seventh day - but rather A seventh day of of MY OWN choosing", as if the text had said "God sanctified and blessed the IDEA of one day in seven as a holy day of rest". (no such text in all of scripture - as we both know)
I find that "instructive".
===========================================
But since you are posting - I find this interesting as well.[/FONT]
In the case of the first - 4 in this list.
You appear to affirm these 4 points points - and DHK appears to to oppose them.
[FONT="]1. Made for mankind in Gen 2:1-3, According to Mark 2:27 and Exodus 20:11. The START/origin/making of the Sabbath is in Gen 2:3.
2. Applicable to all mankind even for eternity in the future - Is 66:23. [/FONT][FONT="][FONT="]Not "the Sabbath made for Jews and not at all applicable to gentiles".
3. Kept by gentiles in both OT (Isaiah 56) and NT (Acts 13, 17, 18). Applicable to gentiles from Genesis onward since they are included in the group "mankind".
4. Still binding on the saints today (James 2 - Heb 4 there remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God)
In my case - I affirm them and I suppose that you also affirm them in some fashion.
Though you and the Baptist Confession of Faith would love to bend the Sabbath to "week-day-1" after the cross - you still claim it is the 4th commandment Sabbath that "remains" and applies to NT saints. (this is the point where DHK likes to insert "how dare you say that when you know that they are bending the Sabbath and trying to get it to point to week-day-1 in the NT after the cross). An Inexplicable complaint on his part that I have yet to find a reason for.[/FONT]
[/FONT]In the case of the next point - you and DHK ALSO differ because DHK does not claim the seventh-day Sabbath is bent away from Saturday - but rather that it simply ended at the cross. Not bent - abolished.
But to the extent that he understands that Mark 7:6-13 does not allow it be "bent" by man's traditions - I at least agree with his view.
5. Cannot be "bent" to point to "week-day-1" by the traditions of man - Mark 7:6-13.
The only place where both of you seem to agree is
a. in your opposition to point 6 - below
b. in your decision to get to week-day-1 worship no matter what part of the Bible you deny in direct contradiction to each other's points leading up to your week-day-1 conclusions. Which is horrible given that you each need your premise to get to your conclusions. (hint: If the premise is wrong - so is the conclusion.)
c. You both seem to love the straw-man-mythology that imagines that I at some point claimed that Spurgeon or the Westminster Confession of Faith or "Baptist Confession of Faith"... claimed that the Saturday Sabbath of the actual Bible continues unchanged unbent in the NT after the cross pointing to Saturday still. (As if I had never posted my point-5 above dozens of times already)
6. The language of Ex 20:11 and Gen 2:3 specify God’s own selected seventh-day of the week – not the mythical and much imagined “any-ol day in seven” idea. Ex 16 “Tomorrow is the Sabbath” – not “any day in seven that you wish”.
In find these irrefutable points - "instructive".
in Christ,
Bob
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They first stated the principle: "in all ages, he hath particularly appointed one day in seven for a sabbath"
Without this principle they could not justify any change of application. You don't get that do you? It is the PRINCIPLE that provided the basis for a different application. They accepted the Jewish interpretation of the seventh day "of the week" from creation to the resurrection and then from the resurrection to the end of the world the first day of the week. I also accepted the Jewish application from Sinai to the resurrection, I just disagreed with them concerning the Jewish application from Creation to Sinai. However, even they are correct that does not change the fact we are in more essential agreement with each other than you are with them.
1. They define it in principle first
2. The Principle provides the basis for different applications
3. The weekly application is based upon their interpretation of scriptures
4. The applications include the seventh day and first day of the week but is not restricted to either a 24 hour "yom" or seventh and first days of the week.
No, all parties embracing the first day Sabbath agree that the fourth commandment in principle does not demand any restrictive appliation to any particular day of the week but INCLUDES such an application. Our side agrees the fourth commandment only demands the seventh day preceded by six working days is the sabbath.
The Sabbath was his first full day but it certainly was not his "seventh" day was it?
You have several difficulties. First, before the flood there is no possible way you can prove what calendar method they went by or what day they observed the Sabbath. Second, after the flood Abraham was a heathen invested with the Babylonial perverted astrological calender which no doubt was even further perverted by the Egyptians under which Israel was in bondage. We know that they did not observe the sabbath coming out of Egypt because they were rebuked by God for not observing the Sabbath. So who knows what day of the Egyptian/Babylonian Calendar they observed a sabbath.
Second, lets assume that the seventh day of the week was observed consistently from creation to the resurrection. Ok! All our advocates of the sabbath agree the creation account and Sinai account of the Sabbath in principle only requires one day in seven as the Sabbath and that is the principle upon change of application is based and God's own varied application of Sabbath law confirms the Principle. Hence, all our advocates stand united according to OUR basis of interpretation of scriptures God Himself changed the Sabbath from the last day "of the week" to the "first day of the week."
Neither does it say "of the week" demanding a divine calendar restrictive introduction either.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by BobRyan
You are welcome to deny all you want -
My point was that these sources I quote use the term "last day of the week" (in the case of the Baptist Confession of Faith) and "seventh day of the week" in other cases. I pointed this out to you already - and you had "no place to go" but to differ with them.
I don't deny that they "need" to eisegete language that is not there - to get to their Sunday Sabbath false doctrine. No question about it.
"They first stated the principle: "in all ages, he hath particularly appointed one day in seven for a sabbath" -- what a "nice text" that would have been to actually have from the actual Bible - instead of having to "quote themselves" to get it!
But sadly for your own position they go so far as to argue that in Eden it is the SEVENTH DAY OF THE WEEK (as they say "Last Day of the WEEK" from CREATION to the Cross). --
Which as you know - destroys your entire effort to eisegete in "one day in seven but certainly NOT the seventh day of the WEEK in Eden).
Here you are wrong - again. I do understand that not ONLY do they "need to bend" the 4th commandment language to point to "week day 1" instead of what THEY CALL "The Last day of the week" but they ALSO need to EISEGETE in the new commandment "keep one day in seven" as if the Bible had said
"just keep one day in seven" and then said "and as an example of that - here is the weekly Sabbath in Saturday form - which you can later BEND to week-day-1 form as long as you keep to a 7 day cycle)” when it comes to the Sabbath of the actual Bible.
So then Sabbath could be something of mankind's OWN selecting as long as it is "one day in seven".
Then they could simply "do so again" after the cross.
I get their NEED to eisegete such a text. but there is NO TEXT IN ALL OF SCRIPTURE that says "keep one day in seven - as you choose it and that is just fine with God".
and we both know it.
what is worse - your own sources say "THE LAST DAY OF THE WEEK" is what was kept "From CREATION to the Cross".
Let's read it again because this is right were I keep pointing out that you have no place to go.
[FONT="]Baptist Confession of Faith - Section 22. Point 7[/FONT]
As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.
The "CLUE" here for those attempting a sunday-sabbath man-made-invention is that the guys above cannot bring themselves to use the actual BIBLE language "Seventh day" - they try to "hide" beyond the never-found-in-the-Bible term "LAST day of the WEEK" as if we cannot see what they are doing.
My question to Biblicist - (let us see if he dares to answer)
Do you agree with the Baptist Confession of Faith statement above that in the case of the SABBATH of the 4th Commandment "
From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week,"
Because if you do - then you have no place to go for you admit with them that from Gen 2:3 onward it was Saturday- the SAME day as is kept in the Gospels as the 7th day - the Sabbath - and then you along with the Baptist Confession of Faith - claim it is changed to SUNDAY - the FIRST day of the week - after the cross.
That means there was NEVER a time before the cross - when God Himself did not select the VERY day saying "THIS is the day that is THE Sabbath" - Saturday. So also in Ex 16 "Tomorrow IS the Sabbath" - the SAME day according to that document -- as in Gen 2:3. The SAME day as in the Gospel Accounts.
Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???
Are we really going to follow your idea of "just blame it all on BobRyan" as so many others would like to do?? Really?
in Christ,
Bob
You are welcome to deny all you want -
My point was that these sources I quote use the term "last day of the week" (in the case of the Baptist Confession of Faith) and "seventh day of the week" in other cases. I pointed this out to you already - and you had "no place to go" but to differ with them.
I don't deny that they "need" to eisegete language that is not there - to get to their Sunday Sabbath false doctrine. No question about it.
"They first stated the principle: "in all ages, he hath particularly appointed one day in seven for a sabbath" -- what a "nice text" that would have been to actually have from the actual Bible - instead of having to "quote themselves" to get it!
But sadly for your own position they go so far as to argue that in Eden it is the SEVENTH DAY OF THE WEEK (as they say "Last Day of the WEEK" from CREATION to the Cross). --
Which as you know - destroys your entire effort to eisegete in "one day in seven but certainly NOT the seventh day of the WEEK in Eden).
Here you are wrong - again. I do understand that not ONLY do they "need to bend" the 4th commandment language to point to "week day 1" instead of what THEY CALL "The Last day of the week" but they ALSO need to EISEGETE in the new commandment "keep one day in seven" as if the Bible had said
"just keep one day in seven" and then said "and as an example of that - here is the weekly Sabbath in Saturday form - which you can later BEND to week-day-1 form as long as you keep to a 7 day cycle)” when it comes to the Sabbath of the actual Bible.
So then Sabbath could be something of mankind's OWN selecting as long as it is "one day in seven".
Then they could simply "do so again" after the cross.
I get their NEED to eisegete such a text. but there is NO TEXT IN ALL OF SCRIPTURE that says "keep one day in seven - as you choose it and that is just fine with God".
and we both know it.
what is worse - your own sources say "THE LAST DAY OF THE WEEK" is what was kept "From CREATION to the Cross".
Let's read it again because this is right were I keep pointing out that you have no place to go.
[FONT="]Baptist Confession of Faith - Section 22. Point 7[/FONT]
As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.
The "CLUE" here for those attempting a sunday-sabbath man-made-invention is that the guys above cannot bring themselves to use the actual BIBLE language "Seventh day" - they try to "hide" beyond the never-found-in-the-Bible term "LAST day of the WEEK" as if we cannot see what they are doing.
My question to Biblicist - (let us see if he dares to answer)
Do you agree with the Baptist Confession of Faith statement above that in the case of the SABBATH of the 4th Commandment "
From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week,"
Because if you do - then you have no place to go for you admit with them that from Gen 2:3 onward it was Saturday- the SAME day as is kept in the Gospels as the 7th day - the Sabbath - and then you along with the Baptist Confession of Faith - claim it is changed to SUNDAY - the FIRST day of the week - after the cross.
That means there was NEVER a time before the cross - when God Himself did not select the VERY day saying "THIS is the day that is THE Sabbath" - Saturday. So also in Ex 16 "Tomorrow IS the Sabbath" - the SAME day according to that document -- as in Gen 2:3. The SAME day as in the Gospel Accounts.
Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???
Are we really going to follow your idea of "just blame it all on BobRyan" as so many others would like to do?? Really?
in Christ,
Bob
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by BobRyan
This was done on Adam SECOND day - not his SEVENTH. God's Creation week Sabbath was independent of Adam "working six days first".
Adam's first day is Friday - he is created and he names the animals on Friday. Eve is also created on that day according to Gen 1, so we know from Gen 2 - it is also the day Adam named the animals.
Saturday - the 7th day (what Spurgeon calls the "last day of the week" - the SAME day as the Sabbath from Creation to the the resurrection) is Adam's SECOND day.
God does not tell Adam -- you must work today and 4 more days - then you can keep your 1 in 7 days as a rest day.
Rather in Gen 2:3 selects THE VERY DAY as the Sabbath -- it is THE VERY DAY - the 7th day OF THE WEEK that is blessed even though it is only Adam's SECOND day.
Even your own documents admit it is the last day "OF THE WEEK" as the SAME day from Gen 2:3 to the resurrection.
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So while I fully agree with you - that your documents NEED a text that talks about "one day in 7" but as we both know
1. There is no such "One day in seven" text in all of scripture. (As if any day man picks would “do” as long as we keep to some sort of 7 day cycle).
2. The "SEVENTH day" (of the week to quote the Baptist Confession of Faith) in Gen 2:3 is Adam’s SECOND Day.
3. That day is the SAME day "of the week" as was kept in the Gospels before the cross, “From Creation to the resurrection”.
Is it any wonder then that Biblicist has been anxious to avoid being confronted with a problem for which he has no solution?
in Christ,
Bob
This was done on Adam SECOND day - not his SEVENTH. God's Creation week Sabbath was independent of Adam "working six days first".
Adam's first day is Friday - he is created and he names the animals on Friday. Eve is also created on that day according to Gen 1, so we know from Gen 2 - it is also the day Adam named the animals.
Saturday - the 7th day (what Spurgeon calls the "last day of the week" - the SAME day as the Sabbath from Creation to the the resurrection) is Adam's SECOND day.
God does not tell Adam -- you must work today and 4 more days - then you can keep your 1 in 7 days as a rest day.
Rather in Gen 2:3 selects THE VERY DAY as the Sabbath -- it is THE VERY DAY - the 7th day OF THE WEEK that is blessed even though it is only Adam's SECOND day.
Even your own documents admit it is the last day "OF THE WEEK" as the SAME day from Gen 2:3 to the resurrection.
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So while I fully agree with you - that your documents NEED a text that talks about "one day in 7" but as we both know
1. There is no such "One day in seven" text in all of scripture. (As if any day man picks would “do” as long as we keep to some sort of 7 day cycle).
2. The "SEVENTH day" (of the week to quote the Baptist Confession of Faith) in Gen 2:3 is Adam’s SECOND Day.
3. That day is the SAME day "of the week" as was kept in the Gospels before the cross, “From Creation to the resurrection”.
Is it any wonder then that Biblicist has been anxious to avoid being confronted with a problem for which he has no solution?
in Christ,
Bob
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You don't <get that>, <<... any change of application>> is change of LAW; and any change of Law is change of DAY; and any change of day is change of "the day The SEVENTH Day Sabbath-OF-THE-LORD-GOD".
What is worse, you don't <get that>, change of "the day The SEVENTH Day Sabbath-OF-THE-LORD-GOD" implies and involves and demands change of "the LORD GOD" of "the day The SEVENTH Day Sabbath-OF-THE-LORD-GOD".
First find that other lord god of yours whose Sabbath-Day-of-Rest is not "the day The Seventh Day Sabbath of the [TRUE AND ONLY] LORD GOD" --- then come try your senseless <applications> galore to any day of the week except "the day The Seventh Day Sabbath-OF-THE-LORD-GOD".
Please, <get that>, will you?!
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Your whole argument is flawed. God is immutable but the Sabbath law is applied by God to VARIOUS days and thus if his law is immutable than your restrictive view violates God's immutalbe Law which demands more extensive application than you allow. The Sabbath law is applied to other days besides the "seventh" day by God (Lev. 23). That very fact destroys your whole contention that the Sabbath Law must be restricted to the seventh day or the seventh day of the week. Argue all you like but it will never change the fact that God's application of sabbath law is GREATER than your interpretation or application and it does not change God's immutability at all.
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the message is always in the NT, to believe upon the Lord jesus as messiah, and you shall be saved!
Didn't the Coucil of Acts support the notion that gentiles NOT under the burden of trying to observe the OT law, as the Judaizers kept insisting for the gentiles!
Everything you say - and have said well, Bob Ryan - is correct and true ... except ... in this,
<<… the entire concept of the 7 day week from Creation onward … relies on Adam resting that SECOND day and knowing that it is actually the SEVENTH day of creation week.>>
Sorry, but the entire concept of the 7 day week from Creation onward relies on GOD who knowingly, rested that second day in ignorant Adam’s, life. GOD knew and understood that it actually was “The Seventh Day” of creation week—“the LORD GOD’S Rest-Day” in Scriptures after that. In no Scriptures ever is it as much or little as suggested even, that “the day The Seventh Day is Sabbath of the LORD GOD” because Adam or any man ever, rested on it.
The Sabbath Day is not holy or blessed or fulfilled or “Rest-Day OF THE LORD GOD” because of the works of righteousness of man; but because of the completion or finishing “of all the works -- of Righteousness -- OF GOD”—which works of his, “God by the exceeding greatness / ultimate / pinnacle / utter end and reach of his mighty power which He WORKED, WROUGHT”—IN CHRIST JESUS “WHEN HE RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD”.
The most sublimely beautiful and powerful PROOF OF SCRIPTURE that God raised Christ from the dead “ON THE SABBATH DAY” is Ephesians 1:19,20. It sings the Song of Moses AND OF THE LAMB of God the “MAN-WARRIOR” who “TRIUMPHED GREATLY” his Triumph having been his very REST on and of The Seventh Day.
“O, that I may know Him and the POWER OF HIS RESURRECTION” whereby “God finished all his works and rested”!
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Twisting the Scriptures!
No, <the Council of Acts supported no notion that gentiles are NOT under the burden of trying to observe the OT law>. Because it is a completely irrelevant and foreign concept the Council of Acts never gave an idea. The Council of Acts on the contrary took for granted and occasion to promote Christianity the fact Moses -- The Scriptures or <<the OT law>> -- was read in the Church of Jesus Christ "every Sabbath Day".
Keep to the facts, please.
Rubbish! QUOTE where <<the Sabbath law is applied by God to VARIOUS days>>!
QUOTE where <<God's immutalbe Law … demands more extensive application than…>>, quote, “the day The Seventh Day”!
That <<the Sabbath law is applied to other days besides the "seventh" day by God (Lev. 23)>> is YOUR, plain, obvious, screaming, falsity. It is no <<fact>> in the least, but YOUR, false claim which ITSELF, destroys your whole concocted contention that the Sabbath Law must not be restricted to GOD’S making and institution of the seventh day of the creation AND SALVATION-week IN CHRIST, AS:- “the day The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD”.
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