The KJV’s respect for God’s Words

[God's_Servant]

Hello robycop3

Sorry for the delay in getting back hereI have a lot going on).
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You started off talking about......

And you ended by saying.....

This shows you have a dangerous disrespect for God’s Word;
(Just like more and more of today’s Christians are developing.)
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The first “goof” you point out is.......

I have never claimed to have all the answers, but the reason that word Easter was used in Acts 12:4, is because Tyndal, in his translation of the Bible into English in 1526, used this word instead of passover, and therefore the translators of the KJV, in 1611 decided to use it also.

Now, the question still remains unanswered:
Why would Tyndal choose to use this word in the first place?
And then why would the translators of the KJV, decided to follow his lead?

Certainly, they were men of God, who fervently prayed and sought the Lord’s will(after all this is the Bible they were translating). Yet this is the word, they ended up using.

I am not sure of the answer. But it could have been part of the LORD’s plan; For all those Bible haters, who would look for an excuse to reject the Bible;
So He decided to give them one.
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The next “goof” you point out is.........

In this statement, you prove my point:
1 Timothy 6:10 KJV
“For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.”

1 Timothy 6:10 NASB
“For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.”


While it is true, that these two versions say “roughly” the same thing, there are subtle differences.

While verse statement in the KJV, points out a clear and present danger and warning;
This same verse in the NASB et.al, states the danger as being a little more vague.

Clearly for those Christians, who have the pet sin of covetousness: Their choice of Bibles would be, the NASB.
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The point, that you are making with your post, is a clear demonstration, of a loss of respect for the words found in the Bible.

The Bible is GOD’S WORD, not man’s, and God is obligated to preserve His Word for us;
So the Bible should never be referred to as, “man made”.

Be careful when insulting other translations for not being exactly the same as the KJV, because for all you know "All sorts of evil" may be closer to the greek that "all evil". The greek, not the KJV, is what all translations must be judged by.

 

[jonathan.borland]

Be careful when insulting other translations for not being exactly the same as the KJV, because for all you know "All sorts of evil" may be closer to the greek that "all evil". The greek, not the KJV, is what all translations must be judged by.

This is not a criticism of your post, but just an inquiry to see your explanation of how "'all sorts of evil' may be closer to the Greek than 'all evil'" in 1 Tim 6:10.

 

[stilllearning]

Hello God's_Servant

Nice to hear from you.

You said.......

“Be careful when insulting other translations for not being exactly the same as the KJV, because for all you know "All sorts of evil" may be closer to the greek that "all evil". The greek, not the KJV, is what all translations must be judged by.”

You know, you are correct.
“For all we know........”

Very few Christians living today, are fluent in the Greek and Hebrew, and even if they are, they were influence by their teachers.

This in itself, is a great reason to decide upon the KJV, over all those other Bibles.
Because the Christian theologians from the 1600's, were much more trustworthy, than the “Christian” theologians that are around today.
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The Bible predicts, that theologians, are going to get worse and worse, as the Lord’s return approaches......
2 Timothy 3:13
“But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.”

The KJV, was the Bible of choice by most Christians, for about 300 years.

For anyone to decide to trust today’s opinions, over yesterdays opinions, are ignoring this clear warning from Scripture.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Because the Christian theologians from the 1600's, were much more trustworthy, than the “Christian” theologians that are around today.
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The Bible predicts, that theologians, are going to get worse and worse, as the Lord’s return approaches......
2 Timothy 3:13
“But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.”

The KJV, was the Bible of choice by most Christians, for about 300 years.

For anyone to decide to trust today’s opinions, over yesterdays opinions, are ignoring this clear warning from Scripture.

What is your evidence that today's theologians are 'evil men and seducers' while the KJV translating team were not?

So with this theory were the KJV team worse than earlier translators?

 

[stilllearning]

Hello C4K

You said..........

“So with this theory were the KJV team worse than earlier translators?”

First, this is not “a theory”: (Evolution, is a theory, but this is the Bible).
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And, in answer to your question, “Yes”.

Because at the time, that the Holy Spirit gave these words to Paul....
“But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.”
....There were already some deceivers around;
And with every passing year, mankind is getting more and more deceived.

 

[jonathan.borland]

What is your evidence that today's theologians are 'evil men and seducers' while the KJV translating team were not?

So with this theory were the KJV team worse than earlier translators?

Good point. Amazing, but at least stilllearning follows his logic all the way through!

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Hello C4K

You said..........

First, this is not “a theory”: (Evolution, is a theory, but this is the Bible).
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And, in answer to your question, “Yes”.

Because at the time, that the Holy Spirit gave these words to Paul....
“But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.”
....There were already some deceivers around;
And with every passing year, mankind is getting more and more deceived.

I am surprised to see you claim that the KJV team was less qualified to translate the scriptures than the Geneva team simply because they were working a few years later. I for one would never claim that the KJV team were 'evil men and seducers.' I have much too high a regard for that amazing translation.

The Bible is truth, your application is a theory.

So why would you not reject the KJV and use an earlier English translation? The passage you are trying to misapply here does not deal with believers, but 'evil men and seducers.'

If you truly apply your theory you need to at least learn Latin and go back to the Vulgate. It was, after all, the 'Bible of choice' for about a 1000 years before the KJV translating team produced their work.

 

[stilllearning]

Good morning C4K

You said........

“I am surprised to see you claim that the KJV team was less qualified to translate the scriptures than the Geneva team simply because they were working a few years later. I for one would never claim that the KJV team were 'evil men and seducers.' I have much too high a regard for that amazing translation.”

Well I also, would never say, the KJV team were 'evil men and seducers;
But the Bible is clear, when it talks about the depravity of man increasing, as time goes by.

Someone who is regarded a great Christian theologian, of one generation, would not be so considered by a previous generation.

For instance, BB Warfield(1851-1921), is today by most people look upon as a Godly man:
But if someone with his ideas about the Bible, were around back in the 1700's or 1600's, he would have been considered a heretic.
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You also said..........

“The Bible is truth, your application is a theory.”

Not really.
This verse is true........
2 Timothy 3:13
“But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.”

And I am simply applying it to this thread. (And it does apply!)
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You also asked........

“So why would you not reject the KJV and use an earlier English translation?”

That is a good question:
Here’s the answer..........
1John 5:7 (The Geneva Bible)
7 For there are thre, which beare recorde in heuen, the father, the worde, and the holie golt; and these thre are one.

1John 5:7 (The Bishop's Bible)
7 For there are three which beare recorde in heauen, the father, the worde, and the holy ghost, and these three are one.”

1John 5:7 (John Wycliffe’s Bible)
7 For thre ben, that yyuen witnessing in heuene, the Fadir, the Sone, and the Hooli Goost; and these thre ben oon.
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Although the KJV 1611, started out just like these other Bibles, over time the typo’s and misspelled words were corrected, and by 1769, it was almost identical to what we have today.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Good morning C4K

You said........


Well I also, would never say, the KJV team were 'evil men and seducers;
But the Bible is clear, when it talks about the depravity of man increasing, as time goes by.

Someone who is regarded a great Christian theologian, of one generation, would not be so considered by a previous generation.

For instance, BB Warfield(1851-1921), is today by most people look upon as a Godly man:
But if someone with his ideas about the Bible, were around back in the 1700's or 1600's, he would have been considered a heretic.
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You also said..........

Not really.
This verse is true........
2 Timothy 3:13
“But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.”

And I am simply applying it to this thread. (And it does apply!)
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You also asked........

That is a good question:
Here’s the answer..........
1John 5:7 (The Geneva Bible)
7 For there are thre, which beare recorde in heuen, the father, the worde, and the holie golt; and these thre are one.

1John 5:7 (The Bishop's Bible)
7 For there are three which beare recorde in heauen, the father, the worde, and the holy ghost, and these three are one.”

1John 5:7 (John Wycliffe’s Bible)
7 For thre ben, that yyuen witnessing in heuene, the Fadir, the Sone, and the Hooli Goost; and these thre ben oon.
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Although the KJV 1611, started out just like these other Bibles, over time the typo’s and misspelled words were corrected, and by 1769, it was almost identical to what we have today.

So even though evil men and seducers were waxing worse and worse all the time the English Bible got better and better all the time until 1769?

If your theory is true we need to go back to the earliest English Bible to avoid as much deception as possible.

Do you not believe that God is able to preserve His people from deception? The verse you are misapplying is talking about 'evil men and seducers,' not God's people.

Also, if older is better (to avoid deception) should we not use the oldest Greek texts?

 

[stilllearning]

Hi C4K

You said.....

“So even though evil men and seducers were waxing worse and worse all the time the English Bible got better and better all the time until 1769?”

Well, if you put it that way YES!

The Bible is the Bible, it can never get any better or worse:
(But the Bible translated into another language, can be made better or worse.)

My argument is, that sure enough the English Bible had reached it’s apex, in the 1700's and 1800's, this is one of the explanations for all the GREAT revivals, English speaking peoples had, during this time.

But as we all know, Wescott & Hort struck a devastating blow to the English Bible in 1881, that started a downward trend, that brings us to today, when most Christians feel that they have to study more than one translation, to get to the truth.
(When all they really have to do, is study the KJV.)
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Next you said........

“If your theory is true we need to go back to the earliest English Bible to avoid as much deception as possible.”

Well, this is what we have in the KJV.
Those who gave us the KJV, copied most of it, from previous ACCURATE English versions.
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You also asked........

“Do you not believe that God is able to preserve His people from deception? The verse you are misapplying is talking about 'evil men and seducers,' not God's people.”

ABSOLUTELY! God does and has preserved His Word.

But for some unknown reason, God also allows deceivers to deceive.
(Just like the 2 or 3 faulty manuscripts that Wescott & Hort put together, back in 1881
God could have see to it, that these manuscripts has been destroyed. BUT HE DIDN’T.

My opinion in this area, has to do with our free will:
Kind of the same reason, that the LORD put the tree of knowledge of good and evil, in the garden.

Each and every one of us, has to decide:
(Are we going to trust man’s wisdom or God’s wisdom?)
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Finally you asked........

“Also, if older is better (to avoid deception) should we not use the oldest Greek texts?”

You would think so, wouldn’t you.
But the “oldest Greek texts”, are the same ones that Wescott & Hort used.

The prevailing thought about this, is that these older manuscripts, were still around and
in good condition, because Nobody with any sense, read them!
(They were flawed, so they were just put on a shelf.)

Any good copies of the Bible, were studied and therefore didn’t last.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Well, at least your theory is there for all the world to see.

“But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.” - refers to godly Bible translators.

The earliest Greek texts are flawed. Even though 'evil men and seducers' were getting worse and worse better manuscripts were coming to the fore for another 300-400 years.

The earliest English Bibles are flawed and had to be corrected until 1769 when these deceived me finally got it right, even though men were still waxing worse and worse.

But, since 1769 everything has just gone downhill.

Got it.

Only one more question and I will leave you alone.

What makes you so sure the 1769 guys got it right?

 

[God's_Servant]

This is not a criticism of your post, but just an inquiry to see your explanation of how "'all sorts of evil' may be closer to the Greek than 'all evil'" in 1 Tim 6:10.

I wasn't trying to say it was, I don't know greek. I was hoping that someone who knew would check it out.

 

[God's_Servant]

What I was trying to point out is that people always compare new translations to the KJV, but never take the greek into mind.

 

[annsni]

What I was trying to point out is that people always compare new translations to the KJV, but never take the greek into mind.

Actually, I think it's the staunch KJVOliers who compare the new translations to the KJV. I don't use the KJV as the measuring line personally. I never have and I don't know many Christians who do.

 

[stilllearning]

Hello God's_Servant

I like you, do not read Greek.
But the Greek is always on my mind.

But unfortunately there are two big questions that come up about the Greek......
(1) Which Greek are you talking about:
(The one used for the KJV or (The one used for every other version
-Although some other versions try to use both;-
I don’t think we should even be influenced by the other one!

(2) The other big question is; who’s opinion do we take, about what a Greek word means.
(Everyone seems to have an opinion these days.)
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Now this may seem like it paints a hopeless picture:
.......“How can we know what God’s Word says?”

Well I have decided to let “the Holy Spirit” answer this question for me.
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The first way that I do this, is by what has already been said in this thread:
(By trusting the English Bible, that millions of born again Christians trusted for hundreds of years.)
The KJV.

Every other versions, is a Johnny come lately, that has only had a few short years, to effect the Church.

But the KJV, had an effect upon the Church for about 300 years.
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You can look at this two ways:
(1) All these millions of Christians, were all stupid and were fooled into believing that the KJV, was actually God’s preserved Word:

or

(2) You can trust that the same Holy Spirit, that is in us, was in them, and gave them daily assurance that the Bible they were using was God’s Holy Word.
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Now Satan is tricky:
And he doesn’t care if we read the Bible, as long as we don’t fully trust what we read.....
“Yea, hath God said......?” Genesis 3:1

If he can place one doubt in our minds, about the Word of God, he has done his work.
Because the once powerful Word of God, that is there to teach us and to give us guidance and strengthen & build’s our faith.......
Now becomes just a book, of words that “might” by God’s Word.


This is a deadly serious subject!

 

[mcdirector]

I've got several friends who are teaching themselves Greek. They are not preachers, just students of the word. I've got a couple of primers sitting on my shelf along with a Greek new testament. Doesn't have to be beyond reach if you don't know it already.

 

[God's_Servant]

Hello God's_Servant

I like you, do not read Greek.
But the Greek is always on my mind.

But unfortunately there are two big questions that come up about the Greek......
(1) Which Greek are you talking about:
(The one used for the KJV or (The one used for every other version
-Although some other versions try to use both;-
I don’t think we should even be influenced by the other one!

(2) The other big question is; who’s opinion do we take, about what a Greek word means.
(Everyone seems to have an opinion these days.)
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Now this may seem like it paints a hopeless picture:
.......“How can we know what God’s Word says?”

Well I have decided to let “the Holy Spirit” answer this question for me.
--------------------------------------------------
The first way that I do this, is by what has already been said in this thread:
(By trusting the English Bible, that millions of born again Christians trusted for hundreds of years.)
The KJV.

Every other versions, is a Johnny come lately, that has only had a few short years, to effect the Church.

But the KJV, had an effect upon the Church for about 300 years.
------------------------
You can look at this two ways:
(1) All these millions of Christians, were all stupid and were fooled into believing that the KJV, was actually God’s preserved Word:

or

(2) You can trust that the same Holy Spirit, that is in us, was in them, and gave them daily assurance that the Bible they were using was God’s Holy Word.
--------------------------------------------------
Now Satan is tricky:
And he doesn’t care if we read the Bible, as long as we don’t fully trust what we read.....
“Yea, hath God said......?” Genesis 3:1

If he can place one doubt in our minds, about the Word of God, he has done his work.
Because the once powerful Word of God, that is there to teach us and to give us guidance and strengthen & build’s our faith.......
Now becomes just a book, of words that “might” by God’s Word.


This is a deadly serious subject!

In most places the texts agree, and I doubt this text is one of the differences. Also, Remember time is nothing to God, a day as a thousand years, a thousand years as a day. The Geneva bible only had a few years to affect the church, but God used it gloriously.

 

[Trotter]

stilllearning seems to have sidestepped Roger's question...

Well, at least your theory is there for all the world to see.

“But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.” - refers to godly Bible translators.

The earliest Greek texts are flawed. Even though 'evil men and seducers' were getting worse and worse better manuscripts were coming to the fore for another 300-400 years.

The earliest English Bibles are flawed and had to be corrected until 1769 when these deceived me finally got it right, even though men were still waxing worse and worse.

But, since 1769 everything has just gone downhill.

Got it.

Only one more question and I will leave you alone.

What makes you so sure the 1769 guys got it right?

I, too, and waiting on a definitive answer to this "logic" that has been put forth.

 

[stilllearning]

Hello Trotter

I suppose the question you are talking about is.......

“What makes you so sure the 1769 guys got it right?”

I am sorry, that you missed my answer.

I am so sure about the KJV, because of what it’s got, that the others don’t.
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When they first came out, the NIV(and a lot of the others), it totally removed Mark 16:9-20, because Wescott & Hort decided that this chapter should end at verse 8.

But then later(because they wanted to keep selling their Bibles), they put it back in.
(With a statement something like, “the best Greek manuscripts don’t have these verses”.)

Now, there are two things that bother me about this:
1) Removing or casting doubt upon words and verses in God’s Word:
2) Feeling free to remove and then put back, any verse they want.

The Bible isn’t something that anybody should feel free to edit.
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Above, God's_Servant talked about how great the Geneva Bible was, and I agree.

But every one of those “modern versions”, either totally remove or gut, 1John 5:7;
Yet the Geneva Bible, says precisely what the KJV says in 1John 5:7.

So what is going on here.
Are the “publishers” of the modern versions, going to tell us, what verses should be in our Bibles?!?!?

I think not.
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Therefore, what makes me so sure about the KJV 1769, is because it hasn’t changed in all these years.

 

[robycop3]

Still Learning, you should still learn that the AV men also 'edited' the Bible.

And the "Yea, hath God said...?" is one of the MOST STUPID of KJVO arguments. You are stumped by this version of it:" Yeah, hath GOD said, 'You shall be KJVO?' "

"The love of money is A root of ALL SORTS of evil" is reality. "The love of money is THE root of ALL evil" does NOT fit reality. We all agree that Klebold & Harris committed a great evil when they shot up Columbine HS, but it would be absurd to say they did it for lova money since they KILLED THEMSELVES. And while Scripture cannot be broken, it can be poorly translated, and that's what the KJV did with 1 Tim. 6:10. There are other goofs as well, discussed elsewhere in this forum. Bottom line is that the KJV is no more perfect than the versions you are dissing.

As for Bible sales...the early copies of the AV has KJ's TAX STAMP in it, placed there at the suggestion of his Finance Minister Sir Robert Cecil. This tax made the AV too pricey for the average Englishman to afford, but was a way for KJ to line the royal treasury with gold.