That's not what I am implying. Like the above scripture posted, God uses all things for His glory, even natural disasters. God could have showed His power by allowing the hurricane, and He also could have showed His power in weakening it. I don't know, but I will never say "it was God's will that....". I only know God's will by what the Bible says, and that is He uses everything (sin, sinners, disasters, etc.) for His glory. </font>[/QUOTE]If it was God's will to allow it, then it was God's will that it happen. Otherwise, he would have not allowed it. A house divided itself cannot stand.
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The Lord Has His Way In The Whirlwind
- Thread starter Mark Osgatharp
- Start date
That's not what I am implying. Like the above scripture posted, God uses all things for His glory, even natural disasters. God could have showed His power by allowing the hurricane, and He also could have showed His power in weakening it. I don't know, but I will never say "it was God's will that....". I only know God's will by what the Bible says, and that is He uses everything (sin, sinners, disasters, etc.) for His glory. </font>[/QUOTE]If it was God's will to allow it, then it was God's will that it happen. Otherwise, he would have not allowed it. A house divided itself cannot stand. </font>[/QUOTE]So the house must not be divided. Why would God send His son to die for sin that He commits? In essence, Jesus committed suicide for no reason. The Bible says God hates sin, so if He caused it is He lying? The Bible says God cannot lie. If this is true, God is nothing more than a sinner and not Holy. You might as well be atheist, then.
You continue to mix in human activity in this discussion. That is a separate issue and is more nuanced. Right now I am speaking strictly of the natural world. The natural world does not have a will of its own. God is not playing chess with nature. Nor is He a watchmaker watching his creation tick away, occasionally tweaking things here and there.
Journeyman1
New Member
People are self willed and God doesn't take this away from us, if he did, we'd just be puppets. Why would we expect anything different related to the natural world? Do we expect him to stop a hurricane in the USA, but allow a hurricane in Asia? How would he justify this, well, elts see there are more believers in the US, so lets protect my children but lets come down hard on the Budhists in Asia? We'll teach them a few lesson's. Come on, Gods love is for all of us, he wants none of us to suffer, the natural world works in its own cycle of regeneration, God created it and its still good. These things happen and we don't understand why, but we have to trust in God's goodness regardless.
jman
jman
Webdog, you must stop this habit of making false accusations against others. Where on earth have I said what you just attributed to me? I said early on that I was only taking about nature, not human activity and sin. And I've repeated it a couple of times. How many times do I have to say that I am not talking about human activity!
Journeyman1
New Member
This article explains a little about this topic:
Complete article~
http://www.epm.org/articles/freewill2.html
Excerpts that may apply:
God is not only more powerful than any evil-doer, he can take the worst evil and use it for the highest good. Overstatement? No. Was the crucifixion the greatest evil ever committed by Satan and fallen man? Yes. Was it ordained by God to produce the greatest glory for God and the greatest good for men? Absolutely. We can't figure out how that works. (Why should be expect our finite minds to understand the workings of the infinite God? Isaiah 55:8-9) Fortunately, our inability to understand how it works never diminishes the sovereignty of God.
Isaiah 55:8-9 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
and your ways are not My ways."
[This is] the LORD's declaration.
9 "For as heaven is higher than earth,
so My ways are higher than your ways,
and My thoughts than your thoughts.
A more biblical analogy, I think, is that we have true freedom to walk the ship, to choose when and where we eat, whether or not we befriend other passengers. We can do good or evil. We can stay on the ship or even jump overboard. But we do not have control over exactly where the ship is going, the sway of the sea, the weather—sunshine or storms—and whether we ultimately live or die. Some things are determined, even when we don't know the timetable, our death among them
("No man has power over the wind to contain it; so no one has power over the day of his death," Eccles. 8:8).
Using the illustration of the ever-popular Titanic, these people were free to make meaningful choices, both moral and immoral, and indeed they did so. They were not free, however, to snap their fingers and go back in time, causing the ship this time to miss the Iceberg. Nor were they able to keep the Titanic from sinking, no matter what they did. You and I can't make this world into something that will avoid its inevitable destruction by fire (2 Peter 3). But we can certainly help the needy, bring the gospel to the lost, feed the hungry one at a time, pray and serve our God in meaningful choices each day.
God says "I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form the light and create darkness. I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7). Our tendency is to try to be God's PR people by absolving Him of all disasters. Sure, we can link them to the curse on the earth due to the sin of man, and yes demons do seek to bring disasters on us, but by distancing God from disasters (in a misguided attempt to defend his goodness—which needs no help from us) we end up with a deistic God who just lets the universe go wherever it will, run amok because of our sin. That kind of God isn't vitally involved in our lives. He does not work all things together for good, like the true God of the Bible.
We are right to try to distance God from the commission of evil—Scripture does this—but we are wrong to distance Him from being sovereign over evil. Spurgeon suffered from a very painful malady and said something like "If did not believe God sent me this affliction, I would despair." Being an insulin dependent diabetic was orchestrated by God to increase my sense of dependence on him. Being sued by an abortion clinic for 8.4 million dollars was orchestrated by God to take me out of a pastoral ministry I loved to do what He really wanted me to do. God's hands weren't tied by my genetic propensity toward my disease (result of the curse), nor by the vengeance of child-killers (result of human sin and demonic strategy). He didn't merely "make the best of a bad situation." He took a bad situation and used it for His highest good. So much so that I can no longer think of it as a bad situation—it was a severe mercy, a grace disguised in hardship.
If this were not true, a woman who lost her husband would have to believe that she had experienced bad luck, that God is either not as powerful or not as loving as He claims to be. The couple whose 16 year old daughter was killed in a tragic car accident would have to believe that her death was a cosmic accident, and wouldn't have happened if only she hadn't been at that place at that time or if others hadn't been on the road or if only this or if only that. We can drive ourselves crazy with this. But embracing God's higher purpose in events that are painful and even tragic is an affirmation of God's greatness. This is not fatalism. It is faith in the promises and character of God.
It seems to me that God is in control over all, everything. That some things I can understand, some things I will never understand.
jman
Complete article~
http://www.epm.org/articles/freewill2.html
Excerpts that may apply:
God is not only more powerful than any evil-doer, he can take the worst evil and use it for the highest good. Overstatement? No. Was the crucifixion the greatest evil ever committed by Satan and fallen man? Yes. Was it ordained by God to produce the greatest glory for God and the greatest good for men? Absolutely. We can't figure out how that works. (Why should be expect our finite minds to understand the workings of the infinite God? Isaiah 55:8-9) Fortunately, our inability to understand how it works never diminishes the sovereignty of God.
Isaiah 55:8-9 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
and your ways are not My ways."
[This is] the LORD's declaration.
9 "For as heaven is higher than earth,
so My ways are higher than your ways,
and My thoughts than your thoughts.
A more biblical analogy, I think, is that we have true freedom to walk the ship, to choose when and where we eat, whether or not we befriend other passengers. We can do good or evil. We can stay on the ship or even jump overboard. But we do not have control over exactly where the ship is going, the sway of the sea, the weather—sunshine or storms—and whether we ultimately live or die. Some things are determined, even when we don't know the timetable, our death among them
("No man has power over the wind to contain it; so no one has power over the day of his death," Eccles. 8:8).
Using the illustration of the ever-popular Titanic, these people were free to make meaningful choices, both moral and immoral, and indeed they did so. They were not free, however, to snap their fingers and go back in time, causing the ship this time to miss the Iceberg. Nor were they able to keep the Titanic from sinking, no matter what they did. You and I can't make this world into something that will avoid its inevitable destruction by fire (2 Peter 3). But we can certainly help the needy, bring the gospel to the lost, feed the hungry one at a time, pray and serve our God in meaningful choices each day.
God says "I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form the light and create darkness. I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things" (Isaiah 45:7). Our tendency is to try to be God's PR people by absolving Him of all disasters. Sure, we can link them to the curse on the earth due to the sin of man, and yes demons do seek to bring disasters on us, but by distancing God from disasters (in a misguided attempt to defend his goodness—which needs no help from us) we end up with a deistic God who just lets the universe go wherever it will, run amok because of our sin. That kind of God isn't vitally involved in our lives. He does not work all things together for good, like the true God of the Bible.
We are right to try to distance God from the commission of evil—Scripture does this—but we are wrong to distance Him from being sovereign over evil. Spurgeon suffered from a very painful malady and said something like "If did not believe God sent me this affliction, I would despair." Being an insulin dependent diabetic was orchestrated by God to increase my sense of dependence on him. Being sued by an abortion clinic for 8.4 million dollars was orchestrated by God to take me out of a pastoral ministry I loved to do what He really wanted me to do. God's hands weren't tied by my genetic propensity toward my disease (result of the curse), nor by the vengeance of child-killers (result of human sin and demonic strategy). He didn't merely "make the best of a bad situation." He took a bad situation and used it for His highest good. So much so that I can no longer think of it as a bad situation—it was a severe mercy, a grace disguised in hardship.
If this were not true, a woman who lost her husband would have to believe that she had experienced bad luck, that God is either not as powerful or not as loving as He claims to be. The couple whose 16 year old daughter was killed in a tragic car accident would have to believe that her death was a cosmic accident, and wouldn't have happened if only she hadn't been at that place at that time or if others hadn't been on the road or if only this or if only that. We can drive ourselves crazy with this. But embracing God's higher purpose in events that are painful and even tragic is an affirmation of God's greatness. This is not fatalism. It is faith in the promises and character of God.
It seems to me that God is in control over all, everything. That some things I can understand, some things I will never understand.
jman
Journeyman1
New Member
Andy T,
Your debating with yourself. I am not talking about nature, I am talking about the God that created nature and the earth. I've never questioned God's sovereignty over his creation. He created the earth and allows it to function as he made it to function.
jman
Your debating with yourself. I am not talking about nature, I am talking about the God that created nature and the earth. I've never questioned God's sovereignty over his creation. He created the earth and allows it to function as he made it to function.
jman
Journeyman1
New Member
Exactly how God combines his providential control over our choices and the course of our lives or nature we may never understand. We should just accept the scriptural basis for this and do the best that he allows. Thats why we have to step forward in faith and trust in God to be a loving God. Anything more and its just our weak attempt to explain a God that we can never fully understand.
"Gods ways and thought are greater than our little minds are able to grasp." Isaiah 55:8.
"Gods ways and thought are greater than our little minds are able to grasp." Isaiah 55:8.
I said, whether or not you want to say He caused Katrina, you can't escape the fact that He is responsible. He had the power to stop it and didn't. I don't see how anyone could think this is a preferable notion to the one that says God sent it.
God Himself said He created the wicked for the day of judgment. Perhaps he should have consulted you first.
Did you read in the paper how a "miraculous" gust of dry air from the midwest weakened the storm to a level 4 prior to landfall? Is this God "doing something about it"?
You obviously think so. Note something you said in a later post: He obviously did allow it. He did curtail the destruction and potential loss of life. So the dry air was sent by God but Katrina wasn't? Why would you say that? Though you have "miraculous" in quotes the word does not appear in the article. Why not dismiss the dry air as merely a coincidental random event as you do Katrina?
The reason is that you prefer to think the dry air was sent by God, but you don't want to think Katrina was sent by God. That's the only difference. I and others, on the other hand, prefer to rely on what God has revealed to us in the Scriptures. And we're the ones with the flawed view?
You need to slow down and spend more time in the Scriptures. Doesn't God call Babylon His servant? Yes, several times. Was there a more evil empire?
And what do you say of those that murdered Jesus?
The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.
buckster75
Member
A test and a judgement.
Journeyman1
New Member
Behind a Frowning Providence -- The Christian's Confidence in the Face of Sorrow
Posted: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 2:21 am ET
William Cowper [1731-1800] was among the greatest of English poets and hymn writers. With John Newton, he produced the famed hymnal, Olney Hymns, in 1779. Cowper wrote "God Moves in a Mysterious Way" in 1774. The phrase quickly entered popular parlance, but Cowper's reverent and thoughtful understanding was quickly lost. When he described God's ways as mysterious, Cowper was not shrugging his shoulders in resignation, but expressing a Christian confidence.
Cowper's words should encourage believers troubled by the tragedy of Hurricane Katrina, or by any great distress. "Judge not the Lord by feeble sense," Cowper instructs, "but trust Him for His grace." Our confidence: "Behind a frowning providence He hides a smiling face."
Those words define Christian truth and Gospel courage in the face of what truly appears as a "frowning providence." Cowper did not deny the reality of evil and suffering, but he did deny the victory of evil and suffering. We dare not doubt God's smiling face.
God moves in a mysterious way His wonders to perform; He plants His footsteps in the sea, and rides upon the storm.
Deep in unfathomable mines of never-failing skill, He treasures up His bright designs, and works His sovereign will.
Ye fearful saints, fresh courage take, the clouds ye so much dread, are big with mercy, and shall break In blessings on your head.
Judge not the Lord by feeble sense, but trust Him for His grace; Behind a frowning providence, He hides a smiling face.
His purposes will ripen fast, unfolding every hour; The bud may have a bitter taste, but sweet will be the flower.
Blind unbelief is sure to err, and scan his work in vain; God is His own interpreter, and He will make it plain.
© All rights reserved, www.AlbertMohler.com
Posted: Wednesday, August 31, 2005 at 2:21 am ET
William Cowper [1731-1800] was among the greatest of English poets and hymn writers. With John Newton, he produced the famed hymnal, Olney Hymns, in 1779. Cowper wrote "God Moves in a Mysterious Way" in 1774. The phrase quickly entered popular parlance, but Cowper's reverent and thoughtful understanding was quickly lost. When he described God's ways as mysterious, Cowper was not shrugging his shoulders in resignation, but expressing a Christian confidence.
Cowper's words should encourage believers troubled by the tragedy of Hurricane Katrina, or by any great distress. "Judge not the Lord by feeble sense," Cowper instructs, "but trust Him for His grace." Our confidence: "Behind a frowning providence He hides a smiling face."
Those words define Christian truth and Gospel courage in the face of what truly appears as a "frowning providence." Cowper did not deny the reality of evil and suffering, but he did deny the victory of evil and suffering. We dare not doubt God's smiling face.
God moves in a mysterious way His wonders to perform; He plants His footsteps in the sea, and rides upon the storm.
Deep in unfathomable mines of never-failing skill, He treasures up His bright designs, and works His sovereign will.
Ye fearful saints, fresh courage take, the clouds ye so much dread, are big with mercy, and shall break In blessings on your head.
Judge not the Lord by feeble sense, but trust Him for His grace; Behind a frowning providence, He hides a smiling face.
His purposes will ripen fast, unfolding every hour; The bud may have a bitter taste, but sweet will be the flower.
Blind unbelief is sure to err, and scan his work in vain; God is His own interpreter, and He will make it plain.
© All rights reserved, www.AlbertMohler.com
Again, because God allows something does NOT mean He is the cause of it. If you allow your child to go out with a stranger, and they get murdered, did you cause the murder? Simple concept...like receiving a gift
This same God said He wishes that NONE perish and He takes no joy in the destruction of the wicked. Hmmm...I wonder what the true context of the scripture you posted is. Maybe He should have consulted you?
Not what I said. God allowed the hurricane and He ALSO ALLOWED THE MIDWEST WIND the weakened it. He allowed both.
My bad. Miraculous was how they described it on TV. I think the amazing was how they described it in the article.
I don't prefer to think any such thing. I refuse to label this hurricane "God's will" like so many foolishly do without knowing God's will.
This is true for all of us including you.
Yes, and your point? You are not trying to say the satan and God are partners in sin and crime, are you?
Not that God murdered Him, as I am getting from your post. God used the sin of man in killing His Son for His glory...and for our salvation.
Mark Osgatharp
New Member
If you have the complete capability to stop the murder and yet you stand by and watch while your child is murdered without lifting a finger to stop it, then I say you are as guilty as the murderer.
And yet that is exactly the scenario you paint of God. You say He could have stopped it but didn't. That, to my mind, paints a very pathetic and disgusting image of God - a God who pines away over accidents that He could have stopped but just didn't bother to for some vague, mysterious, and unknowable "reason".
How much easier - and Biblical - it is to believe in a God who works all things according to His power and according to the just deserts and needs of His creatures.
I will be out of pocket for a few days and therefore won't be able to respond any further on this thread. I quit this discussion by calling all involved to a sober consideration of the following words from the 147th Psalm. If these would not convince a man that nature is but the finger of God, then nothing else I could say would have any effect on your sin hardened hearts:
"He sendeth forth his commandment upon earth: his word runneth very swiftly.
He giveth snow like wool: he scattereth the hoarfrost like ashes.
He casteth forth his ice like morsels: who can stand before his cold?
He sendeth out his word, and melteth them: he causeth his wind to blow, and the waters flow."
Mark Osgatharp
Lakeview Missionary Baptist Church
Wynne, Arkansas
buckster75
Member
Maybe many people will turn to God as a result of this disaster. Maybe some of those who died were obstacles to God's work. Maybe many of those affected face a test. What's the verse about all things working out for good? God does or allows things as He sees fit to do or allow.
Where in this analogy did I imply "standing around and allowing the murder"? Quit putting words in my mouth. You know exactly what I mean. If your child goes on a date WITHOUT YOU BEING ON THE DATE and is murdered, YOU didn't cause the murder.
And you don't believe this?
Why? Because He is holy and uses ALL things for His glory, including disasters? So you believe God is "disgusting" for not stopping and allowing every abortion, murder and rape?
This is exactly what I believe, why would you imply I don't?