SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
Just because Jesus died for the entire human race does not mean that they are automatically saved. In Mark 1.15 Jesus say that all sinners must "repent and believe in the Gospel"
It really is that simple
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THE LORD IS…NOT WILLING THAT ANY OF YOU SHOULD PERISH
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Just because Jesus died for the entire human race does not mean that they are automatically saved. In Mark 1.15 Jesus say that all sinners must "repent and believe in the Gospel"
It really is that simple
Jesus did not die for the whole Human race...He died a Covenant death for all the children given to Him by the Father.
...and there is your fallacy, which you cannot grasp. Desperately, you desire rulership over God in order to determine your own fate.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
time you put away your theology and accept what the Bible actually says. It is very obvious, even to Calvin as his comments on Mark 14:24 show, that Judas was part of those Jesus told that He was going to the cross to die for their sins. Whether your "theology" allows for this, means zilch, as the Word of God is ONLY Infallible and not what one believes!
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
can you deal with the fact that Jesus told Judas that He was going to shed His blood for HIM!
if the word of God is the only source, why are you quoting Calvin...haha
You did not answer my question about the Covenant death??
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
because Calvin was honest enough to admit the truth, something you "reformed" on here are blinded to!
So Jesus full atonement is limited to those who believe or Jesus does not provide full atonement for any person, but only partial atonement. Which one?
Mark 1:14-15
Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
Do you know what the Mosaic covenant is and why Jesus came to complete this covenant? If you do, you'll understand what Jesus is saying to Israel.
LOL, you are the ONLY one talking about Calvin. All others are addressing scripture (what the Bible says). Why do you fight against the Bible?
I think it is a reference to ;
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
you guys TWIST what the Bible says! I have give Bible evidence that Jesus Christ died for Judas, it is clear in Luke 22, and yet you reject this and continue in your heresies!
I have nothing further to add as you are rejecting the Bible.
SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
DEAL with the passage in Luke and stop fighting against the Word of God!
End of discussion with you as you don't want to listen to the Bible as Austin does!
Sure. Let's accept your premise.
But, in return you must accept that Judas was fully atoned for and saved by the atoning work of Jesus.
If you deny this, then you declare that Jesus payment was not full payment. Jesus blood did not pay for the unrepentant and nonbeliever.
Mark 14:18-25
And as they were reclining at table and eating, Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me, one who is eating with me.” They began to be sorrowful and to say to him one after another, “Is it I?” He said to them, “It is one of the twelve, one who is dipping bread into the dish with me. For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” And as they were eating, he took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to them, and said, “Take; this is my body.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. And he said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many. Truly, I say to you, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”
Interesting that Jesus didn't say "for all who are at this meal." Instead Jesus said "for many."
Huh. Limited atonement right there for you. Full atonement for many, not for all.
You have no answer to the Covenant death of the Lord Jesus Christ;
The all of john 6:37_ 44 is the same children spoken of in hebrews 2
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
see, you have no answer here, so your posts are in vain
How many times has this verse been discussed on here?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
It says "you".
" And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
21 But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me [is] with me on the table.
22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!
23 And they began to enquire among themselves, which of them it was that should do this thing." ( Luke 22:19-23 ).
Judas was still there.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Looks to me like as if he is saying that Jesus shed His blood for Judas, by using the word "you".
The problem is, that if Christ died for Judas and / or Judas was saved:
1) That would make Jesus a liar in John 5:24...
If Judas really was saved and really did believe, then he lost his salvation because he was cast away and went to His place ( Acts of the Apostles 1:15-20 ).
John 5:24 states that those that believe have ( present tense ) everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation;
But Scripture refers to Judas as the son of perdition in John 17:12.
He will indeed come into condemnation.
2) It would make Jesus a liar in John 6:39...
He said He would lose none of the ones that the Father gave Him.
But Judas left right after the supper and was lost ( John 17:12 ), so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
That is why he was lost...
Not because he was saved and lost his salvation, or that Christ died for him.
3) It would make Jesus a liar in John 6:44...
Because it says that no man can come to Him unless the Father draw them.
But if Judas really was drawn, "savingly" to Christ, then Judas lost his salvation;
Again, this is impossible because Jesus Himself said that the one the Father draws will be raised up at the last day.
4) It would make Jesus a liar in John 10:27-29...
Because His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him, and He gives to them eternal life and they shall never perish.
Judas will perish, because he went out from among them ( John 13:30, 1 John 2:19 ) and again, was the son of perdition and was lost so that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
5) It would make the Lord a liar in Romans 5:1-11...
" Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." ( Romans 5:9 ).
The two go hand-in-hand...
Justified by the blood and saved from wrath through Christ.
But Judas will not be saved from the wrath of God through Jesus Christ, neither could he have been reconciled to God by the death of His Son ( Romans 5:10 )...
Because Judas was called the son of perdition and a devil by the Lord Himself.
...too many more to list in this space.
Therefore, when Jesus was speaking to the 12 and made the statement,
" This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you." , He was not including Judas, even though Judas was sitting at the table with Him until after supper, when he left.
Why?
Did He not say this in John 6?
" Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? "
God's children are never referred to as "devils".
They are referred to as "beloved".
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Luke 22:3-6,14-23
Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve. He went away and conferred with the chief priests and officers how he might betray him to them. And they were glad, and agreed to give him money. So he consented and sought an opportunity to betray him to them in the absence of a crowd.
And when the hour came, he reclined at table, and the apostles with him. And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. For I tell you I will not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves. For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. But behold, the hand of him who betrays me is with me on the table. For the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!” And they began to question one another, which of them it could be who was going to do this.
John 13:1-2,21-30
Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart out of this world to the Father, having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end. During supper, when the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray him.
After saying these things, Jesus was troubled in his spirit, and testified, “Truly, truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me.” The disciples looked at one another, uncertain of whom he spoke. One of his disciples, whom Jesus loved, was reclining at table at Jesus’ side, so Simon Peter motioned to him to ask Jesus of whom he was speaking. So that disciple, leaning back against Jesus, said to him, “Lord, who is it?” Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I will give this morsel of bread when I have dipped it.” So when he had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. Then after he had taken the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, “What you are going to do, do quickly.” Now no one at the table knew why he said this to him. Some thought that, because Judas had the moneybag, Jesus was telling him, “Buy what we need for the feast,” or that he should give something to the poor. So, after receiving the morsel of bread, he immediately went out. And it was night.
sbw, you are projecting your philosophy upon the Bible and then telling everyone else that if they don't project like you do, they are not sharing what the Bible says. You are being dishonest.
When we look at all the passages sharing the Passover supper, we conclude that Jesus did not atone for Judas sins. Judas was not redeemed. His sin was not paid for.
I am sure you cannot see your error. Moreso, you will not entertain the possibility that it may be you who is in error. So be it.
Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve. He went away and conferred with the chief priests and officers how he might betray him to them. And they were glad, and agreed to give him money. So he consented and sought an opportunity to betray him to them in the absence of a crowd.
And when the hour came, he reclined at table, and the apostles with him. And he said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer. For I tell you I will not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves. For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. But behold, the hand of him who betrays me is with me on the table. For the Son of Man goes as it has been determined, but woe to that man by whom he is betrayed!” And they began to question one another, which of them it could be who was going to do this.
John 13:1-2,21-30
Now before the Feast of the Passover, when Jesus knew that his hour had come to depart out of this world to the Father, having loved his own who were in the world, he loved them to the end. During supper, when the devil had already put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray him.
After saying these things, Jesus was troubled in his spirit, and testified, “Truly, truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me.” The disciples looked at one another, uncertain of whom he spoke. One of his disciples, whom Jesus loved, was reclining at table at Jesus’ side, so Simon Peter motioned to him to ask Jesus of whom he was speaking. So that disciple, leaning back against Jesus, said to him, “Lord, who is it?” Jesus answered, “It is he to whom I will give this morsel of bread when I have dipped it.” So when he had dipped the morsel, he gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. Then after he had taken the morsel, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, “What you are going to do, do quickly.” Now no one at the table knew why he said this to him. Some thought that, because Judas had the moneybag, Jesus was telling him, “Buy what we need for the feast,” or that he should give something to the poor. So, after receiving the morsel of bread, he immediately went out. And it was night.
sbw, you are projecting your philosophy upon the Bible and then telling everyone else that if they don't project like you do, they are not sharing what the Bible says. You are being dishonest.
When we look at all the passages sharing the Passover supper, we conclude that Jesus did not atone for Judas sins. Judas was not redeemed. His sin was not paid for.
I am sure you cannot see your error. Moreso, you will not entertain the possibility that it may be you who is in error. So be it.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
So, if the Lord is not willing that any of mankind, including Judas, perish,
why did He specifically state that Judas was lost in John 17:12, so that the Scripture might be fulfilled?
Clearly it is because in 2 Peter 3:9, the "us" or "us-ward" is referring to the "beloved" in verse 8, not a devil as the Lord Jesus called him.
why did He specifically state that Judas was lost in John 17:12, so that the Scripture might be fulfilled?
Clearly it is because in 2 Peter 3:9, the "us" or "us-ward" is referring to the "beloved" in verse 8, not a devil as the Lord Jesus called him.
Acts 7:51 is a fit description of me as a natural man. I not only resisted, I rebelled after I was born-again. Never the less, God wants me to spend eternity in His presence and He got His way with me. I suspect my experience is not uncommon among His elect.
Praise God from Whom all blessings flow.
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