The Lord Jesus Christ and the Death Penalty

[Salty]

As long a God commands it I support it so Please, Please stay in Canada!raying:

Free, IMHO I believe that answer was uncalled for and that you owe Jim an apology. There are activities that US citizens have which Jim could properly tell us to stay in the USA. But knowing Jim, he would act more Christ-like and not make such a statement.

 

[freeatlast]

No, that is not the answer.

Innocent people in jail is a travesty of justice, it is a tragedy for the individual and that is very sad. Execution would be the greatest travesty. There is no possibility of freedom for an innocent person who has been executed. As long as there is life there is the possibility of innocence being proven for that innocent individual. Also, unless it is life without parole that innocent person will be released at some point in the future.

Our system even under the death penalty has the same advantages to prove innocence as does those who get time. However the argument that some are innocent as an excuse to reject the word of God does not agree with the word of God. He calls for the death penalty and it never says unless someone is against it. To stand against the death penalty is to stand against God.

 

[mandym]

I don't believe I have said v. 16 says anything directly about the death penalty. It does specifically speak to the attitudes that Christians are to have with the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul.

It seems clear to me. In v.18, Paul says, "This command I entrust to you Timothy, my son, ...." What command is Paul speaking of? Isn't it the command to follow the example of our Lord Jesus Christ in showing mercy with perfect patience with the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul?

The example is perfect patience and mercy. That is an example for believers to follow, in context. We see in chp.2 v.1 Paul says, "First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men...."

This is consistent with the command from v.16 to follow the example of our Lord in showing mercy with perfect patience to all men, even murderers like Paul.

The command, therefore, that Christians are to have an attitude of mercy with perfect patience with the worst of sinners can readily be applied to the issue of the death penalty. Support for the death penalty is contrary to that command, IMHO.

peace to youraying:

Again the example was not to timothy or believers but to "as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life." You have taken it out of context. the "example" is not for believers to have perfect patience. It was to unbelievers to understand that God's grace reaches their sin no matter what it is.

 

[canadyjd]

Again the example was not to timothy or believers but to "as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life." You have taken it out of context. the "example" is not for believers to have perfect patience. It was to unbelievers to understand that God's grace reaches their sin no matter what it is.

I understand what you are saying and I disagree. I am following the context. I don't believe you are. It doesn't say the example is for unbelievers. It is for those who will be believers. "...as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life."

Paul also specifically tells Timothy that this command is entrusted to him and instructs him to pray for all men. That is consistent with the context of an example for believers to follow (not unbelievers to think about)

What command is Paul speaking of if not the command to follow the example of Jesus in showing mercy with perfect patience to the worst of sinners, even murderers like Paul?

peace to youraying:

 

[mandym]

I It is for those who will be believers.

Exactly...unbelievers

 

[canadyjd]

... To stand against the death penalty is to stand against God.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Exactly...unbelievers

He is talking about a command that future Christians are to follow. An attitude toward those who are sinners. That is clear in the context. How can unbelievers follow the commands of Jesus?

What command is he referring to when he tells Timothy that he has entrusted "this command" to him? The context is clear. The command to have mercy with perfect patience.

If you see another command in there somewhere, just show me where?

peace to youraying:

 

[Jim1999]

God is not imposing the death penalty; the national governments are. What ended the death penalty in England was after they had hanged a 17 year old lad, who later proven innocent. The government sent a letter of apology to the family.

In Canada, Prime Minister Diefenbaker simply decided not to apply the death penalty to a youth sentenced to hang. He was later proved innocent, and has lived a lifetime trying to work his life out.

I think it was 14 men who sat on Death row in Chicago until a young law student took on their cases and proved their innocence. That ended the death penalty in Illinois.

More and more stories of innocent people dying at the hands of the nation....not at God's hand....are coming up.

The laws and courts are far from perfect, and frankly, I fear that imperfection. I saw imperfect laws enacted in the military. They took innocent men,and women,and just shot them down because they were in the wrong uniforms.

I am commanded to preach life to people, not death.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[freeatlast]

God is not imposing the death penalty; the national governments are. What ended the death penalty in England was after they had hanged a 17 year old lad, who later proven innocent. The government sent a letter of apology to the family.

In Canada, Prime Minister Diefenbaker simply decided not to apply the death penalty to a youth sentenced to hang. He was later proved innocent, and has lived a lifetime trying to work his life out.

I think it was 14 men who sat on Death row in Chicago until a young law student took on their cases and proved their innocence. That ended the death penalty in Illinois.

More and more stories of innocent people dying at the hands of the nation....not at God's hand....are coming up.

The laws and courts are far from perfect, and frankly, I fear that imperfection. I saw imperfect laws enacted in the military. They took innocent men,and women,and just shot them down because they were in the wrong uniforms.

I am commanded to preach life to people, not death.

Cheers,

Jim

Actually Jim you are commanded to obey all God commands and He has commanded the death penalty. Let me ask you a question. You say that your disagreement with the death penalty is because someone might be innocent. [personal attack snipped] Would you support the death penalty for someone where it could be 100% proven they murder someone?

 

[canadyjd]

Let me ask you a question....

Wow! This is outrageous. I am reporting you.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Wow! This is outrageous. I am reporting you.

I agree. Without the bad-mouthing, it is a legit question and so I helped freeatlast with it a bit.

Interested to see the answer.

 

[freeatlast]

I agree. Without the bad-mouthing, it is a legit question and so I helped freeatlast with it a bit.

Interested to see the answer.

Thank you I agree with your decision. I apologize for the personal attack.

 

[sag38]

God bless you freeatlast. You can display humility.

 

[Jeremiah2911]

As I recall [I hadn't read through this thread for a few days] the original questions had to do with whether Jesus would agree with the death penalty, and it has evolved into a debate about the death penalty, and there have been several for it and several against it, and as in many cases, emotions get in the way of facts. Anyone who would say that Jesus was against the death penalty would be in effect saying one of two things: 1) Jesus disagrees with the Father [impossible] or 2) God Himself "changed His mind" concerning his laws governing capital punishment [then throw away the Old Testament I suppose];

it is ironic that yesterday as I was mowing I was listening to JVernon McGee preaching back in the 60's on the subject of Hell, and he was talking about the liberal Bible colleges and "scholars" and preachers who have tried [and still do JOsteen] to get rid of hell--and he stated that many didn't believe in hell and one was quoted as saying now that we got rid of hell we should also get rid of capital punishment [I just thought I'd throw that in there, no extra charge ]

Lastly for those who are concerned that innocent people die, Webdog mentioned back around post 13, what about Jesus?

Do innocent people die? Yes I do trust innocent people are accused and die--does this in any way make God unsovereign? Does this make Romans 8:28 of no effect? God instituted captital punishment for a reason--to deter crime! The Preacher said it best in:
Ecclesiastes 8:11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

Do we see that happening today? [Yes] And yet we have Christians against capital punishment?

Peace

 

[JesusFan]

I agree. Without the bad-mouthing, it is a legit question and so I helped freeatlast with it a bit.

Interested to see the answer.

Think the 'bottom line' here form the Scriptures, when taken in context, is that the Lord does NOT prohibit capital punshemnt even while in the Age of Grace, BUT that He has proscribed it to be administered by the 'state", and for ONLY crimes that involve 1st degree Murder, and with proof of the guilty party be proven!

as to the common objections that we are under grace now, and that person might not be saved if executed, could have come to Christ...

Murder in the first degree seems to be a 'special" case, as it involves the shedding of innocent blood on a person made in image of God!

And that the Apostle paul did state the Govt has the sword from god to uphold/keep the peace, and those whom are the elct of God will indeed be saved regardless if executed for their crimes or not, as a genuine Christian has been executed who came to the Lord while on death Row, but still had to face "penalty' for their crime!

Also would say that while God allows for it, can decide to punish by prison, as He does NOT absolutely require it IF there is a chance of "miatiting" circumstances involved !

 

[matt wade]

Anyone who would say that Jesus was against the death penalty would be in effect saying one of two things: 1) Jesus disagrees with the Father [impossible] or 2) God Himself "changed His mind" concerning his laws governing capital punishment [then throw away the Old Testament I suppose];

Leviticus 20:10 tells us "And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."

Yet, when Jesus was faced with this situation, he did not put the woman (or the man) to death. Why is that?

 

[freeatlast]

Think the 'bottom line' here form the Scriptures, when taken in context, is that the Lord does NOT prohibit capital punshemnt even while in the Age of Grace, BUT that He has proscribed it to be administered by the 'state", and for ONLY crimes that involve 1st degree Murder, and with proof of the guilty party be proven!

as to the common objections that we are under grace now, and that person might not be saved if executed, could have come to Christ...

Murder in the first degree seems to be a 'special" case, as it involves the shedding of innocent blood on a person made in image of God!

And that the Apostle paul did state the Govt has the sword from god to uphold/keep the peace, and those whom are the elct of God will indeed be saved regardless if executed for their crimes or not, as a genuine Christian has been executed who came to the Lord while on death Row, but still had to face "penalty' for their crime!

Also would say that while God allows for it, can decide to punish by prison, as He does NOT absolutely require it IF there is a chance of "miatiting" circumstances involved !

[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]No place does the scripture suggest that God allows for it. It is a direct command, not a suggestion. Also any murder not what is being called 1st degree murder God calls for the death penalty. If you take a life, any life, unless it is an innocent accident, self defense, or during an act of war, you should pay with yours according to scripture. There are other reasons for the death penalty which I believe should be in place but those would cloud this discussion.
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

 

[freeatlast]

God is not imposing the death penalty; the national governments are. What ended the death penalty in England was after they had hanged a 17 year old lad, who later proven innocent. The government sent a letter of apology to the family.

In Canada, Prime Minister Diefenbaker simply decided not to apply the death penalty to a youth sentenced to hang. He was later proved innocent, and has lived a lifetime trying to work his life out.

I think it was 14 men who sat on Death row in Chicago until a young law student took on their cases and proved their innocence. That ended the death penalty in Illinois.

More and more stories of innocent people dying at the hands of the nation....not at God's hand....are coming up.

The laws and courts are far from perfect, and frankly, I fear that imperfection. I saw imperfect laws enacted in the military. They took innocent men,and women,and just shot them down because they were in the wrong uniforms.

I am commanded to preach life to people, not death.

Cheers,

Jim

Jim what is your answer to this? Actually Jim you are commanded to obey all God commands and He has commanded the death penalty. Let me ask you a question. You say that your disagreement with the death penalty is because someone might be innocent. Would you support the death penalty for someone where it could be 100% proven they murder someone?

 

[matt wade]

Jim what is your answer to this? Actually Jim you are commanded to obey all God commands and He has commanded the death penalty. Let me ask you a question.

Let me ask you a question. Why did Jesus disobey this command?

 

[JesusFan]

[SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0][SIZE=+0]No place does the scripture suggest that God allows for it. It is a direct command, not a suggestion. Also any murder not what is being called 1st degree murder God calls for the death penalty. If you take a life, any life, unless it is an innocent accident, self defense, or during an act of war, you should pay with yours according to scripture. There are other reasons for the death penalty which I believe should be in place but those would cloud this discussion.
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/SIZE]

EVEN in the OT though, God recognized clear differences between premeditated first degree murdewr, and those of passion, accidental eyc!

He ordianed the cities of refuge for murder other than first degree, which received death penalty!

And again, the death penalty was/is proscribed by God for SPECIFIC type of Murder only, and that ALL other examples of what God proscribed as being a "Capital offense' was indeed abloshied in the Cross!

So can make a case for first degree Murder getting it, NOT things liek breaking sabaath/adultery/ etc!