The Lord Jesus Christ and the Death Penalty

[matt wade]

And again, the death penalty was/is proscribed by God for SPECIFIC type of Murder only, and that ALL other examples of what God proscribed as being a "Capital offense' was indeed abloshied in the Cross!

Where exactly in Scripture does it say that all capital offenses EXCEPT first degree murder were abolished at the Cross?

 

[freeatlast]

EVEN in the OT though, God recognized clear differences between premeditated first degree murdewr, and those of passion, accidental eyc!

He ordianed the cities of refuge for murder other than first degree, which received death penalty!

And again, the death penalty was/is proscribed by God for SPECIFIC type of Murder only, and that ALL other examples of what God proscribed as being a "Capital offense' was indeed abloshied in the Cross!

So can make a case for first degree Murder getting it, NOT things liek breaking sabaath/adultery/ etc!

Murder is murder and there is no division in scripture. Here are some passages that prove your assertion wrong;
If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox [shall be] quit.
But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death. This would be equal today to someone who drinks and drives and kills someone. They should get the death penalty.

There is nothing first degree there. In fact one could call it an accident and it still brings the death penalty. What we have to do is decide who we will follow. The liberal world or the Lord.

 

[JesusFan]

Murder is murder and there is no division in scripture. Here are some passages that prove your assertion wrong;
If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox [shall be] quit.
But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death. This would be equal today to someone who drinks and drives and kills someone. They should get the death penalty.

There is nothing first degree there. In fact one could call it an accident and it still brings the death penalty. What we have to do is decide who we will follow. The liberal world or the Lord.

did the Lord forgive david and spare Him from death?
did the Lord forgive the adultery and keep her from death?

also, the ONLY people to EVER be living for God under the law was isreal under Old Covenant , and once we entered into the Age of Grace, no longer under law, but Grace, and we are NOT under law keeping as isreal used to be under!

 

[JesusFan]

Where exactly in Scripture does it say that all capital offenses EXCEPT first degree murder were abolished at the Cross?

The capital penalty for Murder was given to man before even law was formally given to us by God, so that would still be inforce, even though the death of Jesus ushered in the new Covenant relationship between god and man!


jesus death on the Cross placed us into a Grace relationship with God through Him, and as such, we now live under the "Spirit" not letter of the law...

So all other death penalty cases in OT law would now be seen vias the Cross as NOT being initated and required now, as under new covenant..

The First degree murder clause would still be in effect thoguh as this was initiated apart from/before the Law!

 

[matt wade]

The capital penalty for Murder was given to man before even law was formally given to us by God, so that would still be inforce, even though the death of Jesus ushered in the new Covenant relationship between god and man!


jesus death on the Cross placed us into a Grace relationship with God through Him, and as such, we now live under the "Spirit" not letter of the law...

So all other death penalty cases in OT law would now be seen vias the Cross as NOT being initated and required now, as under new covenant..

The First degree murder clause would still be in effect thoguh as this was initiated apart from/before the Law!

This is all opinion on your part. Where does Scripture tell us this?

 

[JesusFan]

This is all opinion on your part. Where does Scripture tell us this?

Genesis is where God proscribed capital penalty for those who willfully killed another person, as man was in "image of God"


Law given to isreal proscribed MANY more cases that would warrent death penalty, but the ONLY one still in effect in new Covenant was the 'sword" granted by God to the Govt inorder to "keep the peace/enforce justice", and that would entail the muder prohibition from Genesis!


ALL other OT cases that brough t death penalty were NOT forwarded into new Covenant , as we are under grace, not under the law given ONKLY to jewish nation/peoples by God!

 

[Crabtownboy]

Actually Jim you are commanded to obey all God commands and He has commanded the death penalty. Let me ask you a question. You say that your disagreement with the death penalty is because someone might be innocent. [personal attack snipped] Would you support the death penalty for someone where it could be 100% proven they murder someone?

How do we obey the commands:

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth

and

Turn the other cheek

at the same time. If we do one we violate the other.

 

[matt wade]

Genesis is where God proscribed capital penalty for those who willfully killed another person, as man was in "image of God"


Law given to isreal proscribed MANY more cases that would warrent death penalty, but the ONLY one still in effect in new Covenant was the 'sword" granted by God to the Govt inorder to "keep the peace/enforce justice", and that would entail the muder prohibition from Genesis!


ALL other OT cases that brough t death penalty were NOT forwarded into new Covenant , as we are under grace, not under the law given ONKLY to jewish nation/peoples by God!

Yes, I understand you have an opinion on this. Where in Scripture does it show us that all cases of death penalty were done away with under grace, except as punishment for murder? Please provide the Scripture to back up your opinion.

 

[Crabtownboy]

There are harsh commands in the OT. Do you believe the following one still holds?

32 While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.

Numbers 15:32-36

I am sure the activity was restricted to gathering wood. I wonder how watching the NFL on or college football would be viewed?

 

[JesusFan]

Yes, I understand you have an opinion on this. Where in Scripture does it show us that all cases of death penalty were done away with under grace, except as punishment for murder? Please provide the Scripture to back up your opinion.

Not opinion, the biblical fact here is that isreal was given the law of /by God for a purpose, and that the Church was NOT placed back under the law, as it was JUST to the Jewish peoples/nation, so Gentiles and other Nations were NOT to be governed by the law of God in the current Church Age!

Since we are NOT under the ordinances of the Law, we areegovern by earlier principle given by God to all man in Genesis concerning the penalty for murder!

 

[Jeremiah2911]

Leviticus 20:10 tells us "And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."

Yet, when Jesus was faced with this situation, he did not put the woman (or the man) to death. Why is that?

Hello Matt Wade, welcome to the end of the thread! Try looking at post #12 [somewhere around there] where I and others addressed that very issue.
God bless

 

[FR7 Baptist]

There is nothing first degree there. In fact one could call it an accident and it still brings the death penalty. What we have to do is decide who we will follow. The liberal world or the Lord.
[/FONT]

Last time I checked we're not under the Old Testament law.

 

[Jeremiah2911]

There are harsh commands in the OT. Do you believe the following one still holds?



I am sure the activity was restricted to gathering wood. I wonder how watching the NFL on or college football would be viewed?

In the case of the NFL, it should be viewed just fine because the Sabbath is on Saturday; College football viewers should be stoned however [just kidding of course]
--the Sabbath was an ordinance between Israel and the Lord --Jesus, however, said He didn't come to change the law one jot or tittle--In other words there is a world of difference between laws, statutes and ordinances and how Christians should view them--if Jesus didn't come to change the law, neither should we.

 

[JesusFan]

In the case of the NFL, it should be viewed just fine because the Sabbath is on Saturday; College football viewers should be stoned however [just kidding of course]
--the Sabbath was an ordinance between Israel and the Lord --Jesus, however, said He didn't come to change the law one jot or tittle--In other words there is a world of difference between laws, statutes and ordinances and how Christians should view them--if Jesus didn't come to change the law, neither should we.

keep quoting the passage though!

Jesus said the word "until" ALL was accomplished/fulfilled!

Jesus indeed "kept" all of the law and its legal requirements, and we died with Him on the cross to its ordinances/rules/regulations as per paul in Colossians!

So the law seved its purposes for God intil coming of the messiah, not under law now, but under the new Covenant of Grace established by the blood of the lamb!

 

[freeatlast]

How do we obey the commands:

An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth

and

Turn the other cheek

at the same time. If we do one we violate the other.

I can see how this might be difficult to understand but a little added information should help clear this up. I assume the passage you are referring to about "eye for eye" is part of a longer passage dealing with a particular issue. Here is what it says;
Exodus 21:22-25 If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman's husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges [determine].
But if [any] harm follows, then you (the judges) shall give life for life,
"eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
"burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.


The Lord is showing how those in authority were to exact justice. He is laying down what is a just punishment for a crime. He is also limiting the abuse of power in such things as he is putting a limit on what can be done in the name of justice. Thye could not remove two eyes if only one was lost and so on. This was not permission to take personal vengeance. This command is for the authorities to pronounce and carry out where there had been a crime.


The turning of the cheek reads as follows;
Matt 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

This passage is dealing with insults. If you notice it says if they smite you on the "right cheek". To do this, one has to use a back hand type of slap someone which is an attempt to provoke a fight through an insult. That still happens today in some cultures. A back handed slap is consider a way to insult so as to get a bigger confrontation going. The Lord is saying be the bigger man and turn to him the other also. In our culture it might be someone who is cussing you out, giving you the finger, or any other kind of insult. In such circumstances we are to "turn the cheek" so to speak.
Romans 12:17, 18 says it this way.
Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.


If you notice the scripture leaves open the door a little. Not so much so when just an insult has been given but if the person refuses to not let it drop and starts to do actual harm then we can respond and should to protect ourselves. This is why it says "If it be possible", as much as lieth in you". Sadly some people just will not leave it at an insult and want to become physical. At that point we can defend ourselves.

So as you see there is no confrontation with the scripture. One is for dealing out justice in the courts (by a judge) and one is living in peace with your neighbor even in the mist of an insult. So if a crime has been done take it to the proper authorities so they can render justice. If you have been insulted turn your cheek. So the eye for an eye and the turning of the cheek, You can do both. The commandments can be kept.

 

[freeatlast]

Last time I checked we're not under the Old Testament law.

Many people use that claim to not obey the Lord's commands and it is true some others are just not learned in this. However the idea that we are not under the law usually comes from a passage in Gal. The passage is dealing with salvation not obedience. Once we are saved we are to keep the commands. In fact it is expected and a person cannot even know if they are saved unless they do. In fact scripture says they are not saved if they are not commandment keepers. However at this point scripture is speaking of something other then what this topic is about.
1John 2:3, 4 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Here is what the Lord says;
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

So yes the OT commandments came over into the NT. The only exception is the Sabbath as Christ is our Sabbath rest.

 

[JesusFan]

I can see how this might be difficult to understand but a little added information should help clear this up. I assume the passage you are referring to about "eye for eye" is part of a longer passage dealing with a particular issue. Here is what it says;
Exodus 21:22-25 If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman's husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges [determine].
But if [any] harm follows, then you (the judges) shall give life for life,
"eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
"burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.


The Lord is showing how those in authority were to exact justice. He is laying down what is a just punishment for a crime. He is also limiting the abuse of power in such things as he is putting a limit on what can be done in the name of justice. Thye could not remove two eyes if only one was lost and so on. This was not permission to take personal vengeance. This command is for the authorities to pronounce and carry out where there had been a crime.


The turning of the cheek reads as follows;
Matt 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

This passage is dealing with insults. If you notice it says if they smite you on the "right cheek". To do this, one has to use a back hand type of slap someone which is an attempt to provoke a fight through an insult. That still happens today in some cultures. A back handed slap is consider a way to insult so as to get a bigger confrontation going. The Lord is saying be the bigger man and turn to him the other also. In our culture it might be someone who is cussing you out, giving you the finger, or any other kind of insult. In such circumstances we are to "turn the cheek" so to speak.
Romans 12:17, 18 says it this way.
Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.


If you notice the scripture leaves open the door a little. Not so much so when just an insult has been given but if the person refuses to not let it drop and starts to do actual harm then we can respond and should to protect ourselves. This is why it says "If it be possible", as much as lieth in you". Sadly some people just will not leave it at an insult and want to become physical. At that point we can defend ourselves.

So as you see there is no confrontation with the scripture. One is for dealing out justice in the courts (by a judge) and one is living in peace with your neighbor even in the mist of an insult. So if a crime has been done take it to the proper authorities so they can render justice. If you have been insulted turn your cheek. So the eye for an eye and the turning of the cheek, You can do both. The commandments can be kept.

Thankfully Christians are under the Grace/law of jesus, and not under OT Law of isreal!

 

[freeatlast]

Thankfully Christians are under the Grace/law of jesus, and not under OT Law of isreal!

The death penalty is not about Israel as it was given to all men. It was given in Gen and stands even for today. Then I assume you do not believe in sending people to prison as to do so would not be grace.

 

[JesusFan]

The death penalty is not about Israel as it was given to all men. It was given in Gen and stands even for today. Then I assume you do not believe in sending people to prison as to do so would not be grace.

I believe that the Death penalty for murder still is in effect, as it was given BEFORE the Law, but those OTHER death penalties proscribed in the LA referred ONLY to nation of isreal, and not binding/in force today!

Also believe that Jesus in NT, and God in OT, shows us that though it can be enforced, does not HAVE to be in every case, as ther might be mitigating circumstances!

 

[freeatlast]

I believe that the Death penalty for murder still is in effect, as it was given BEFORE the Law, but those OTHER death penalties proscribed in the LA referred ONLY to nation of isreal, and not binding/in force today!

Also believe that Jesus in NT, and God in OT, shows us that though it can be enforced, does not HAVE to be in every case, as ther might be mitigating circumstances!

"mitigating circumstances" :laugh: