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The misleading arguments against Free-Will

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OldArmy

OldArmy

Member
Revmitchell said:
What has been happening and even recently is that what is referred to as "Free-Will" is often misrepresented and then argued against based on the misrepresentation. This is a logical fallacy known as a strawman argument. The "Idea of Free-Will" is presented as being divorced from God's plan and purposes and set up as strictly something man does on his own without God at all. I suppose it is believed that in order for it to truly be free will then it has to be. Maybe that is a legitimate argument. Either way misnomer or not the position of those who reject the reformed definition of election are still being misrepresented.

As we Traditionalists see in scripture, God determined that He would provide faith (Romans 10:17) through His inspired written word, the gospel (Romans 1:16). That gospel, the authors ability to write it (I Peter 1:20), the value of the truth in it (Psalm 19:7), the strength of the truth in it (Psalm 19:9), the power of the truth in it (Hebrews 4:12). God did that. The primary source for our faith has been provided by God. Without it we cannot have faith. We would be left to ourselves to die without God now and for eternity.

As Traditionalists we see in scripture, God determined who would be His via election (Ephesians 1:4). This election is not individualistic. It wasn't with the nation of Israel and it never has been. Election is described as pertaining to those who are in Christ. God determined that those who believe would be in Christ (John 1:12). Since God determined that there can be no argument made that somehow man's will becomes a determining factor when God determined man should have the ability to choose or not to choose Him. God determined that belief comes first. God determined that not man. God determined man's ability, man's necessary response to the gospel, God determined the outcomes of man's response. No one, not reformed brethren nor anyone else gets to minimize that determination made by God in order to prop up a strawman. God determined our response. God does not have to sit and wait for man to will his own salvation, God determined that decision.

Those who would jump on the next verse in John ch 1. vs. 13 and yank the word "will" out of its context in order to fit into a presupposition miss the intent of the author. The word will is not in the context of whether man determines his own salvation. It is in the context of how the Jews saw salvation. John was not working to fend off Arminians he was addressing Jews who thought that being a descendant of Abraham (the blood)(Matt 3:9) following the "law" (the flesh)(Romans 9:32), and being related to a patriarchal head (the will) was the means of salvation.

Now one may disagree with some or all of this but to say that in our belief we are self determine or that God must wait on us to determine our own salvation is a strawman, it is uncharitable, and completely false. It is completely God and no strawman otherwise can change that.
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Well said!
 
Particular

Particular

Well-Known Member
MartyF said:
First, he said that he was taking the traditionalist viewpoint. Second he never claimed to speak for all Arminians. That is why your argument was strawman.

However, your response is petty and silly.
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Strawman
(Just keeping the theme that the OP has started) [emoji16]
 
Particular

Particular

Well-Known Member
MartyF said:
First, he said that he was taking the traditionalist viewpoint. Second he never claimed to speak for all Arminians. That is why your argument was strawman.

However, your response is petty and silly.
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I have never heard of the "traditionalist" viewpoint. I would imagine the traditionalist viewpoint to be the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox stance.
How does the "traditionalist" stance differ from Arminian views?
I am obviously missing the nuance involved in the "traditionalist" stance, which is seemingly newer than the traditions of the high churches.
 
R

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Particular said:
I have never heard of the "traditionalist" viewpoint. I would imagine the traditionalist viewpoint to be the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox stance.
How does the "traditionalist" stance differ from Arminian views?
I am obviously missing the nuance involved in the "traditionalist" stance, which is seemingly newer than the traditions of the high churches.
Click to expand...

You seem to "imagine" a lot of things. Maybe you should slow down a little bit.
 
M

MartyF

Well-Known Member
Particular

Particular

Well-Known Member
MartyF said:
This might help.

Neither Calvinists nor Arminians but Baptists | Baptist Theology
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Thanks for the link. The article is a bit of a hodge-podge, but at the end the author lays out some distinctions, which I am pasting:

Here are our thoughts about these interwoven, mutually reinforcing and majoritarian priorities:

1. The Lordship of Jesus Christ
We believe that Jesus Christ is Lord. Salvation consists of this fundamental and profound affirmation in heart and mouth. To believe and say that Jesus is Lord is to affirm that God in Christ took upon Himself human nature. True faith is impossible apart from the work of the Spirit of God with the Word of God. Born of a virgin, the Word became flesh. Jesus Christ taught us and worked great miracles, and then he died on the cross to atone for the sins of all humanity. He then arose from the dead on the third day, ascended to the right hand of the Father, and will one day return to judge the living and the dead. As our Lord, He saves us now through faith in Him. As our Lord, He has the right to command us and we have the responsibility to obey Him entirely and according to His order. As our Lord, He preserves us as we carry the cross He has given us through this world. As our Lord, he reigns over us even through death itself and brings us victoriously into eternal life with Him. We come to God the Father through God the Son in God the Holy Spirit. Jesus is Lord!

2. Biblical Proclamation
We believe that the Holy Spirit inspired the Bible, including every word in the entire canon of the Old and New Testaments. As a result of divine inspiration, the Bible is the Word of God and is without error and sufficient for every aspect of the Christian life, from regeneration to proclamation. The Word of God is living and active and will accomplish that for which the Lord sent it. As a preacher proclaims the Word of God, the Spirit opens the ears of the hearer to listen and perceive the Word. The preacher of the Word has been chosen as a necessary instrument by God to proclaim His Word and that Word may not be separated from Scripture; therefore, the Christian minister’s powerful task is to proclaim the Bible in its depth and its fullness. As a result of these truths, we believe that expository preaching of the Bible is the means God has revealed to bring about the salvation of new believers and the growth and comfort of all Christians.

3. The Great Commission
We believe that the Great Commission is the commandment of Jesus Christ. As the
Lord’s final and all-encompassing command to His disciples, the Great Commission must be heard and obeyed with utmost seriousness. The Great Commission is primarily focused upon the making of disciples and is inclusive also of going to the nations, baptizing new believers and teaching them all that Christ commanded. The Christian’s entire life and the church’s entire effort must be submitted to obeying this commission. This entails the effort to evangelize everyone in our hearing through bringing our voice to everyone, everywhere, at all times. This entails following the order of His commission through baptizing people only after he or she has truly become a disciple of Jesus Christ. This entails baptizing a person in the name of the one God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This entails teaching all of Christ’s commands, which means teaching all of Scripture. The Great Commission will not be completed until all nations have been reached and all people have been confronted with the call to follow Jesus, until He comes again. Baptists view the conundrum of divine sovereignty and human responsibility through the lens of the Great Commission. As we wrestle to apprehend the Bible’s simultaneous affirmation of both truths, whether we lean toward Calvinism or Arminianism or neither, we do so in such a way as to always promote the great work of evangelism and missions.

With these three positive Baptist affirmations in mind, we ask that people identify us neither as Calvinists nor as Arminians, but as Baptists. We know this may not provide a certain intellectual satisfaction for solving theological conundrums, but we really think there is a greater question than, “How do you reconcile divine sovereignty with human freedom?” This greater question needs to be answered because it is more important than any other. There is no greater question for the Christian to answer at this point in God’s plan for His creation, and it has to do with His redemption of creation. That question is, “How are we, His chosen instruments, going to obey our Lord and proclaim the good news of His Word—the gospel of His death for the sins of the world and His resurrection for our sakes—to everyone, everywhere and at all times, until He comes again?” This question defines us. This is why we want to be known simply as “Baptists.”
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Particular said:
I have never heard of the "traditionalist" viewpoint. I would imagine the traditionalist viewpoint to be the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox stance.
How does the "traditionalist" stance differ from Arminian views?
I am obviously missing the nuance involved in the "traditionalist" stance, which is seemingly newer than the traditions of the high churches.
Click to expand...
For Arminian/free will Gospel to actually fir the scriptures, we have to ask just what doe sit mean to have sin natures, dead in our sins and transgressions , and now enemies of God? IF we can show in scriptures where somehow sinners in that state can now freely decide to now love kesus and obey God all of a sudden?
 
Particular

Particular

Well-Known Member
Particular said:
Thanks for the link. The article is a bit of a hodge-podge, but at the end the author lays out some distinctions, which I am pasting:

Here are our thoughts about these interwoven, mutually reinforcing and majoritarian priorities:

1. The Lordship of Jesus Christ
We believe that Jesus Christ is Lord. Salvation consists of this fundamental and profound affirmation in heart and mouth. To believe and say that Jesus is Lord is to affirm that God in Christ took upon Himself human nature. True faith is impossible apart from the work of the Spirit of God with the Word of God. Born of a virgin, the Word became flesh. Jesus Christ taught us and worked great miracles, and then he died on the cross to atone for the sins of all humanity. He then arose from the dead on the third day, ascended to the right hand of the Father, and will one day return to judge the living and the dead. As our Lord, He saves us now through faith in Him. As our Lord, He has the right to command us and we have the responsibility to obey Him entirely and according to His order. As our Lord, He preserves us as we carry the cross He has given us through this world. As our Lord, he reigns over us even through death itself and brings us victoriously into eternal life with Him. We come to God the Father through God the Son in God the Holy Spirit. Jesus is Lord!

2. Biblical Proclamation
We believe that the Holy Spirit inspired the Bible, including every word in the entire canon of the Old and New Testaments. As a result of divine inspiration, the Bible is the Word of God and is without error and sufficient for every aspect of the Christian life, from regeneration to proclamation. The Word of God is living and active and will accomplish that for which the Lord sent it. As a preacher proclaims the Word of God, the Spirit opens the ears of the hearer to listen and perceive the Word. The preacher of the Word has been chosen as a necessary instrument by God to proclaim His Word and that Word may not be separated from Scripture; therefore, the Christian minister’s powerful task is to proclaim the Bible in its depth and its fullness. As a result of these truths, we believe that expository preaching of the Bible is the means God has revealed to bring about the salvation of new believers and the growth and comfort of all Christians.

3. The Great Commission
We believe that the Great Commission is the commandment of Jesus Christ. As the
Lord’s final and all-encompassing command to His disciples, the Great Commission must be heard and obeyed with utmost seriousness. The Great Commission is primarily focused upon the making of disciples and is inclusive also of going to the nations, baptizing new believers and teaching them all that Christ commanded. The Christian’s entire life and the church’s entire effort must be submitted to obeying this commission. This entails the effort to evangelize everyone in our hearing through bringing our voice to everyone, everywhere, at all times. This entails following the order of His commission through baptizing people only after he or she has truly become a disciple of Jesus Christ. This entails baptizing a person in the name of the one God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. This entails teaching all of Christ’s commands, which means teaching all of Scripture. The Great Commission will not be completed until all nations have been reached and all people have been confronted with the call to follow Jesus, until He comes again. Baptists view the conundrum of divine sovereignty and human responsibility through the lens of the Great Commission. As we wrestle to apprehend the Bible’s simultaneous affirmation of both truths, whether we lean toward Calvinism or Arminianism or neither, we do so in such a way as to always promote the great work of evangelism and missions.

With these three positive Baptist affirmations in mind, we ask that people identify us neither as Calvinists nor as Arminians, but as Baptists. We know this may not provide a certain intellectual satisfaction for solving theological conundrums, but we really think there is a greater question than, “How do you reconcile divine sovereignty with human freedom?” This greater question needs to be answered because it is more important than any other. There is no greater question for the Christian to answer at this point in God’s plan for His creation, and it has to do with His redemption of creation. That question is, “How are we, His chosen instruments, going to obey our Lord and proclaim the good news of His Word—the gospel of His death for the sins of the world and His resurrection for our sakes—to everyone, everywhere and at all times, until He comes again?” This question defines us. This is why we want to be known simply as “Baptists.”
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What is notable in the authors post is that no scripture is ever used. The assertions shared are very general and don't ever address any of the points of the Remonstrants or the Calvinists.
At best the article tends to say that traditionalists believe in once saved always saved and the means of getting to salvation is "all who will may enter." Thus, since you can't lose your salvation, it's not an Arminian view, but since the human wills his salvation by choosing, it is not a Calvinists view.
To be blunt, it is a mutt view, meaning it's a mixing of views. It is also a walking, talking contradiction that doesn't care about the glaring contradictions staring it in the face.
I didn't know this was the "traditionalist"view, but it was the view in which I was raised. It was the glaring contradictions that I saw in scripture, which moved me toward the 5 points of Calvinism, which resolved those contradictions for me.
 
R

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Particular said:
What is notable in the authors post is that no scripture is ever used. The assertions shared are very general and don't ever address any of the points of the Remonstrants or the Calvinists.
At best the article tends to say that traditionalists believe in once saved always saved and the means of getting to salvation is "all who will may enter." Thus, since you can't lose your salvation, it's not an Arminian view, but since the human wills his salvation by choosing, it is not a Calvinists view.
To be blunt, it is a mutt view, meaning it's a mixing of views. It is also a walking, talking contradiction that doesn't care about the glaring contradictions staring it in the face.
I didn't know this was the "traditionalist"view, but it was the view in which I was raised. It was the glaring contradictions that I saw in scripture, which moved me toward the 5 points of Calvinism, which resolved those contradictions for me.
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No claims they will their salvation by choosing. More strawman
 
InTheLight

InTheLight

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Particular said:
since the human wills his salvation by choosing, it is not a Calvinists view.
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There you go again, proving the assertions in the OP that people misrepresent the free will position.

It is also a walking, talking contradiction that doesn't care about the glaring contradictions staring it in the face.
It was the glaring contradictions that I saw in scripture, which moved me toward the 5 points of Calvinism, which resolved those contradictions for me.
Click to expand...

Oh boy. Calvinism is loaded with contradictions. It's one of the reasons I reject it. Then throw in all the variations on it and there is no consistent theology. It's mongrel theology.
 
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