The misleading arguments against Free-Will

[MartyF]

Right, because I haven't shared my beliefs here....what garbage....

Vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.

I know you may not like this. It is not an easy pill for anyone to swallow but that is what the Bible says.

God determined that decision by basis of his own good pleasure

No, Don't lie. You've never done a full explanation of your belief about Romans 9. From everything, I've read from you, there is nothing that disagrees with the cartoon. Maybe that is why you hate it so much?

Romans 9 is the passage you use repeatedly to say

1. God determines ahead of time who will and will not be saved.

2. God builds up some people just to destroy them.

3. There is nothing one can do to be saved. God either has or hasn't decided to save you.

And without being specific, you quote the entire chapter of Romans 9 as your defense.

The Objector in Romans 9 is an Arminian

Even here one can see a Calvinist thinking that Paul was speaking to Arminians instead of writing about pertinent information at the time.

 

[Dave G]

1. God determines ahead of time who will and will not be saved.

That can be done with Ephesians 1:4-14, Romans 8:28-30 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, as well as John 17:2.
Romans 9 just develops it in greater detail.

2. God builds up some people just to destroy them.

Romans 9:16-18.
Exodus 14:4.
Ezekiel 32:15.
2 Peter 2:12.

Those are a few.

3. There is nothing one can do to be saved. God either has or hasn't decided to save you.

Ephesians 2:8-9.
Romans 9:14-18.
Exodus 33:19.

Salvation is either a gift, or it is a reward for choosing correctly.
God either has the right to have mercy and compassion on whom He wills, or unrighteous, God-hating sinners have a say in our own destiny.

 

[OldArmy]

To claim it's God or man infringing on His sovereignty is a false dichotomy.

 

[MartyF]

That can be done with Ephesians 1:4-14, Romans 8:28-30 and 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, as well as John 17:2.
Romans 9 just develops it in greater detail.

Romans 9:16-18.
Exodus 14:4.
Ezekiel 32:15.
2 Peter 2:12.

Those are a few.

Ephesians 2:8-9.
Romans 9:14-18.
Exodus 33:19.

Salvation is either a gift, or it is a reward for choosing correctly.
God either has the right to have mercy and compassion on whom He wills, or unrighteous, God-hating sinners have a say in our own destiny.

See @davidtaylorjr ! Another Calvinist KJVOer who almost always disagrees with me fully agrees in my assessment that that cartoon is an accurate representation of Calvinist beliefs.

Of course, he'll realize that he should have read first and start backpedalling, but the cartoon is definitely an accurate assessment of Calvinism.

 

[Dave G]

To claim it's God or man infringing on His sovereignty is a false dichotomy.

Not in the least.
To me, you are arguing against His right to save someone, and to damn someone.
It's no more complicated than that.

As I see it, you are challenging His words.

For men to question His authority, holiness, righteousness and purely objective and correct judgment, is sheer folly...and for us to question His right to save and to damn, is not to be fully aware of our own wretched condition and self-serving attitude before Him.

He does as He wishes ( Daniel 4:35 ) with sinful men.
We offended Him, we deserve death...
And death it will be, for those who do not believe on Christ.

We certainly do not deserve His precious Son's sacrifice, and we cannot appropriate His righteousness by our own efforts...whether at "simply believing" or in any other thing that we might try to do for Him.
It is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ).
If or when you come to truly understand that, you will find that there's nothing left of yourself to glory in.

I wish you well, sir, and this is my last reply in this thread.

 

[OldArmy]

Not in the least.
To me, you are arguing against His right to save someone, and to damn someone.
It's no more complicated than that.

As I see it, you are challenging His words.

For men to question His authority, holiness, righteousness and purely objective and correct judgment, is sheer folly...and for us to question His right to save and to damn, is not to be fully aware of our own wretched condition and self-serving attitude before Him.

He does as He wishes ( Daniel 4:35 ) with sinful men.
We offended Him, we deserve death...
And death it will be, for those who do not believe on Christ.

We certainly do not deserve His precious Son's sacrifice, and we cannot appropriate His righteousness by our own efforts...whether at "simply believing" or in any other thing that we might try to do for Him.
It is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ).
If or when you come to truly understand that, you will find that there's nothing left of yourself to glory in.

I wish you well, sir, and this is my last reply in this thread.

To me you're ignoring the obvious possibility that he does give man a choice, there are many scriptures where a person is told to believe, or choose and it's not just a intellectual philosophical possibility. So, like I said, false dichotomy.

Deuteronomy 30:15-20

Also I have never even insinuated in the slightest we deserve anything.

 

[Revmitchell]

Not in the least.
To me, you are arguing against His right to save someone, and to damn someone.
It's no more complicated than that.

As I see it, you are challenging His words.

For men to question His authority, holiness, righteousness and purely objective and correct judgment, is sheer folly...and for us to question His right to save and to damn, is not to be fully aware of our own wretched condition and self-serving attitude before Him.

He does as He wishes ( Daniel 4:35 ) with sinful men.
We offended Him, we deserve death...
And death it will be, for those who do not believe on Christ.

We certainly do not deserve His precious Son's sacrifice, and we cannot appropriate His righteousness by our own efforts...whether at "simply believing" or in any other thing that we might try to do for Him.
It is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ).
If or when you come to truly understand that, you will find that there's nothing left of yourself to glory in.

I wish you well, sir, and this is my last reply in this thread.

Non0ne is questioning those things or glorying in anything. Any accusation we are is a strawman

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
This thread will be closed sometime after 1:20 AM Pacific.

 

[Particular]

No, Don't lie. You've never done a full explanation of your belief about Romans 9. From everything, I've read from you, there is nothing that disagrees with the cartoon. Maybe that is why you hate it so much?

Romans 9 is the passage you use repeatedly to say

1. God determines ahead of time who will and will not be saved.

2. God builds up some people just to destroy them.

3. There is nothing one can do to be saved. God either has or hasn't decided to save you.

And without being specific, you quote the entire chapter of Romans 9 as your defense.

The Objector in Romans 9 is an Arminian

Even here one can see a Calvinist thinking that Paul was speaking to Arminians instead of writing about pertinent information at the time.

If someone could do something to merit salvation, would salvation be solely by grace alone?

 

[Particular]

Non0ne is questioning those things or glorying in anything. Any accusation we are is a strawman

Rev, would you someday use scripture to explain your position? I'm not sure I have ever seen any exegisis of any scripture when you have made assertions. I'm not sure why the Bible is seldom presented in your commentaries.

 

[MartyF]

If someone could do something to merit salvation, would salvation be solely by grace alone?

Hey @davidtaylorjr ! Here's another Calvinist who thinks the Cartoon is an accurate representation of Calvinism!

 

[Revmitchell]

Rev, would you someday use scripture to explain your position? I'm not sure I have ever seen any exegisis of any scripture when you have made assertions. I'm not sure why the Bible is seldom presented in your commentaries.

See the op

 

[Particular]

Hey @davidtaylorjr ! Here's another Calvinist who thinks the Cartoon is an accurate representation of Calvinism!

I didn't pay attention to any cartoon so please don't tell me what I think about a cartoon.
I asked a question about salvation.
If a person can merit his salvation would salvation be solely by grace alone? Would you care to answer the question?

 

[Particular]

See the op

I did. My question still stands.

 

[Revmitchell]

I did. My question still stands.

The op is exactly what you are saying I never do. Further, you have yet to reprove it with scripture and without a strawman. Something you have proven you cannot do.

 

[Particular]

The op is exactly what you are saying I never do. Further, you have yet to reprove it with scripture and without a strawman. Something you have proven you cannot do.

No, it's you making a statement and then claiming a verse as a prooftext. Non-Christians do that all the time (not calling you a non-Christian). They find a verse or a sentence in the Bible and use it as their proof.
I try to quote and share a full passage when pointing at scripture so the reader can see how the context fits with what I am saying. It takes longer, but it helps me avoid falling into the same trap as Muslims, cult members or atheists who couldn't care less about context.
When I read your OP, I recognized your primary aim is to state your opinion. Your secondary purpose was to try make it legitimate by claiming a verse for a point as though the verse proves your opinion.
I would appreciate deeper investigation into scripture first and then a comment stating your opinion on the text.
So, my view is that using a verse here and there to prop up an opinion is misleading the reader.

 

[Revmitchell]

No, it's you making a statement and then claiming a verse as a prooftext. Non-Christians do that all the time (not calling you a non-Christian). They find a verse or a sentence in the Bible and use it as their proof.
I try to quote and share a full passage when pointing at scripture so the reader can see how the context fits with what I am saying. It takes longer, but it helps me avoid falling into the same trap as Muslims, cult members or atheists who couldn't care less about context.
When I read your OP, I recognized your primary aim is to state your opinion. Your secondary purpose was to try make it legitimate by claiming a verse for a point as though the verse proves your opinion.
I would appreciate deeper investigation into scripture first and then a comment stating your opinion on the text.
So, my view is that using a verse here and there to prop up an opinion is misleading the reader.

So this thread is not about doctrine. I have said that over and over again and you have refused to deal with that over and over again. I did make my position on a few doctrines known so as to show how my position as well as others is often misrepresented by some calvies on this board on a regular basis. Everything you just posted is completely false and completely ignores the point of the op. You have worked over and over again to derail this thread and here you are again. I am pointing out the posting habits of some calvies and their intentional misrepresenations of people like me. This thread is not about proving doctrine.

 

[Particular]

So this thread is not about doctrine. I have said that over and over again and you have refused to deal with that over and over again. I did make my position on a few doctrines known so as to show how my position as well as others is often misrepresented by some calvies on this board on a regular basis. Everything you just posted is completely false and completely ignores the point of the op. You have worked over and over again to derail this thread and here you are again. I am pointing out the posting habits of some calvies and their intentional misrepresenations of people like me. This thread is not about proving doctrine.

Sorry, I shouldn't have posted on this thread then because your OP makes no sense if it's not addressing theology.

 

[Revmitchell]

Sorry, I shouldn't have posted on this thread then because your OP makes no sense if it's not addressing theology.

You know I said once and I will stick to it moving forward. I cannot take you seriously. These debate tactics you employ are just no honest.

 

[Particular]

You know I said once and I will stick to it moving forward. I cannot take you seriously. These debate tactics you employ are just no honest.

Honestly, I don't find you to be honest either.