George Antonios
Well-Known Member
...aaaaand here we go again.
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The mystery of the church age
- Thread starter George Antonios
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- dispensationalism
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...aaaaand here we go again.
Thank you for posting that. I found it very helpful. I don't agree with most of it, but it's given me a clearer understanding of what you believe.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
You bet. God bless you.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
The Church existed in the wilderness journey.
“This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:” Acts 7:38 (KJV 1900)
The only change is when Christ abolished circumcision on the cross thereby removing those not born again, turning them into non-members. That is to say, the church was found in an institution mostly of unbelievers now abolished.
The church is permanently a spiritual body of believers which I believe the Baptist model comes closest to the bible.
“This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:” Acts 7:38 (KJV 1900)
The only change is when Christ abolished circumcision on the cross thereby removing those not born again, turning them into non-members. That is to say, the church was found in an institution mostly of unbelievers now abolished.
The church is permanently a spiritual body of believers which I believe the Baptist model comes closest to the bible.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
That's a church, in that case an assembly of non-regenerated, non-spiritually circumcised, non-spiritually baptized, non-body of Christ, Jews.
That's not the church which is the body of Christ.
The word church is not scripturally limited to only describing the latter.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
It is the body of believers in the OT protected by the wicked unregenerate. You are confusing the ex-communication of the unbelievers under the NEW COVENANT with the so-called "mystery". And Jeremiah foretold this in the plainest language ever. Dispensationalism rejects the NT Gospel of the Kingdom Jesus and the Apostles preached and sides with the blind literalist Pharisees.
I watched & listened to the whole video, & I mostly agree. I believe there are four dispensations:
1.) The time before the flood, including prehistoric days. when few people even tried to obey God.
2.) The Old Covenant times, including the time before God gave His law to Moses. Apparently, God had made many of His laws known to men, as they sacrificed, were circimcised, frowned upon adultery, etc. But the main emphasis was on LISTENING TO, BELIEVING, & OBEYING GOD before He formed the Israelis & have them His law to be written & kept.
3.) The New Covenant & Church Age, this present age, that began with Jesus' ministry, sealed by His death & resurrection. This age will last til Jesus returns.
4.)The future world, including the millenium & the world after it, when God remakes the surface of the earth.
But I agree that THIS age was a mystery til Paul & the other apostles established churches.
1.) The time before the flood, including prehistoric days. when few people even tried to obey God.
2.) The Old Covenant times, including the time before God gave His law to Moses. Apparently, God had made many of His laws known to men, as they sacrificed, were circimcised, frowned upon adultery, etc. But the main emphasis was on LISTENING TO, BELIEVING, & OBEYING GOD before He formed the Israelis & have them His law to be written & kept.
3.) The New Covenant & Church Age, this present age, that began with Jesus' ministry, sealed by His death & resurrection. This age will last til Jesus returns.
4.)The future world, including the millenium & the world after it, when God remakes the surface of the earth.
But I agree that THIS age was a mystery til Paul & the other apostles established churches.
I watched the video. I don't have a problem with a lot of what is said. I certainly agree that Jesus said to His followers they would understand more of His preaching after the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. So there was a progressive increase in what was known about the Kingdom of God and salvation. That does not mean the 4 gospels do not apply to us today as some dispensationalists argue. I also don't accept the idea that Jesus was referring to the Tribulation/Millennium when He talked about His Second Coming (only one). He was referring to His Second Coming in Glory and Might to call everyone to the Judgement (only one described in Mat 25) at which the sheep and the goats will be divided and the saved will then enter Heaven and the damned be doomed to Hell for all eternity.
Soortzz Fanzz, the definition of a dispensation in worship is a stage in God's master plan for mankind, not a period of time, nor the "dispensing" of the knowledge God has given man about Himself. That's why I believe we're now in the 3rd of four dispensations.
Preterists like to call everyone who disagrees with their garbage "dispies". That's because they're too eaten-up with their false doctrine to see the facts.
Preterists like to call everyone who disagrees with their garbage "dispies". That's because they're too eaten-up with their false doctrine to see the facts.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
Have you sold all that you own to follow the Lord?
Are you seeking to obey the ten commandments to inherit eternal life?
Are you trying to endure to the end of the tribulation to be saved?
Are you ready to cut off your right hand if it offends you?
Etc.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
What excommunication? The church in the wilderness had many believers. I said they were "non-regenerated, non-spiritually circumcised, non-spiritually baptized, non-body of Christ" not that they were "unbelievers".
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Few were born-again. Most were extremely wicked. The New Covenant removed all unbelievers leaving only those who accepted Christ when he arrived. It's the same church only now without the unbelievers. It never was a mystery if you read Jeremiah.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I watched the video. This is what I heard.
There are things that Jesus said in the gospels that contradict the theory of church age dispensation.
Therefore, all those comments by Jesus should be ignored because He wasn’t talking about the church age, (He only hinted at it, not revealed it)
When we attempt to understand the gospels, we must first realize they don’t apply to the church. If they appear to apply, it is because of an optical illusion.
You must pretend you are looking at two mountain peaks, one higher than the other. The first peak is the cross. The second is the Millennial reign on the earth. You see them both, but because of your angle, you don’t see the valley between them. The valley is the church age, which is a mystery because it can’t be seen from the OT or the gospels (the gospels are part of the OT).
Peace to you
There are things that Jesus said in the gospels that contradict the theory of church age dispensation.
Therefore, all those comments by Jesus should be ignored because He wasn’t talking about the church age, (He only hinted at it, not revealed it)
When we attempt to understand the gospels, we must first realize they don’t apply to the church. If they appear to apply, it is because of an optical illusion.
You must pretend you are looking at two mountain peaks, one higher than the other. The first peak is the cross. The second is the Millennial reign on the earth. You see them both, but because of your angle, you don’t see the valley between them. The valley is the church age, which is a mystery because it can’t be seen from the OT or the gospels (the gospels are part of the OT).
Peace to you
Seeking to obey the 10 commandments to obtain salvation was the First Covenant which was given to the Jews. At the Last Supper, Jesus said:
[Mat 26:27-28 NKJV] 27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
This second covenant replaces the first one which was under the law.
Jesus said and did other things contrary to the Old Testament:
[Mat 5:38-39 NKJV] 38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 "But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
[Mat 5:43-45 NKJV] 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 "that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
This is in line with my previous statement: "So there was a progressive increase in what was known about the Kingdom of God and salvation."
As far far as plucking out your eye and cutting off your hand these are figures of speech which to my knowledge were never included literally as a part of the gospel. In the same way, Jesus used money as the stumbling block when talking to the rich, young ruler. He wasn't saying that literally it was a requirement that His followers give away everything they had in order to achieve eternal salvation and he was not just talking about money. He was talking about anything (even good things like the love of family) that are set at the center of our lives instead of following Him must be put aside.
The books of the Bible need to be interpreted in light of the type of writings they contain, the context when they were written, and the significance placed on them in the whole Bible. I don't believe that the Millennium, the Rapture and the Tribulation should be central tenets of my belief structure as a Christian as you seem to put them. My focus is on the Final Judgement which will separate the saved from the damned.
Let me ask you three questions.
1. When did Jesus ever say that He would return more than once?
2. How will it be determined who will be raptured?
3. How will it be determined who will enter Heaven?
While I'm sure George will answer, let me put in my $0.02:
The rapture won't be a "return". Jesus will call the saints to Him in the sky; He won't come down to them. (As for His presence now, He said that whenever/wherever 2 or 3 are gathered in His name, He will be among them, as per Matt. 18:20.)
Scripture says He will send angels to gather every SAINT from all over the world. And Paul writes that the dead saints will be called up first, that is, called from paradise. So, both OT & NT saints will be called.
Obviously, all saints will. That should be self-evident from Scripture.
Saying all saints will be raptured and will go to Heaven doesn't answer the question. How does God determine who is a saint? My belief is they will be identified at the final Judgment. What's yours?
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Jesus says He knows them by name. Since God is the one who choses who will be saved and brings them to salvation by intervention of Holy Spirit, and then gives them indwelling Holy Spirit as the promise of salvation to come, it’s reasonable to believe God’s memory is sufficient to remember who He has saved and send the angels to gather them.
peace to you
Then why bother to have a judgment?
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
It reveals to all the righteousness of God in judging the wicked and showing mercy to His chosen.
peace to you
In this age, Jesus makes saints of all who come to Him in prayer of genuine repentance & belief. God has left this to Him. And in the Old testament times, God counted those who OBEYED Him & genuinely worshipped Him as saints, also counting as saints those who'd never heard of Him but sought to treat his fellow people with respect & honesty, following such basic things as not murdering, stealing, etc.
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