The Nature of the Church, OT and NT

[John of Japan]

so not the local church but The CHURCH, Jesus' Church.

They are in THE Church,

Same as those who will believe in the future, They will belong to the universal church of believers.

so clearly the church is not complete,

Well, since that is all future, I don't worry about it.

I like the term "the body of Christ," which occurs four times, arguably about a local church all four times:

Ro 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
1Co 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

 

[John of Japan]

From what I gathered from Dr. Weeks, the early Greek City states were ruled by what we in America would term a New England township meeting. Criers would go through the streets calling out the citizenry for a town meeting (ekklesia). In the same period, the town's military was more or less a militia. So, in times of danger, the militia would get called out. From these usages, the word spread into other areas of life.

You mention the "early Greek City states," and that is legitimate for classical Greek. By the 1st century AD, since Rome ruled the Greek cities and the term "called out" no longer necessarily described the city ruling body.

The Liddell and Scott classical lexicon says: "an assembly of the citizens regularly summoned, the legislative assembly, Thuc., etc."

 

[loDebar]

no, We are called out , but not "assembled" as yet.

The local church was not referred to until believes were in separate cities, when referring to a local group in the epistles.

This is not the local church
Eph 5:32
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Perhaps you are saying if the OT believers meeting was a church?


It was a type of an assembly to come, as shown by Marriage supper of the Lamb or perhaps Yom Kippur

OT saints will join us

 

[Squire Robertsson]

A good treatment of Dr. Weeks position of "local church only" is Edward H. Overby's The Meaning of Ecclesia in the New Testament. I found it on Amazon. However, since it's been long out of print it is a bit pricey for something that was 89 cents back in 1974.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

I quite understand that. My point was the word carries more meaning than the simplistic etymological ones put forth by some here. Words fall into and out of usage over the centuries.

You mention the "early Greek City states," and that is legitimate for classical Greek. By the 1st century AD, since Rome ruled the Greek cities and the term "called out" no longer necessarily described the city ruling body.

 

[John of Japan]

I quite understand that. My point was the word carries more meaning than the simplistic etymological ones put forth by some here. Words fall into and out of usage over the centuries.

Well said.

 

[John of Japan]

no, We are called out , but not "assembled" as yet.

The local church was not referred to until believes were in separate cities, when referring to a local group in the epistles.

Not true. Christ laid out the structure of the local church in Matt. 16 & 18, then the first local church was in one city: Jerusalem (Acts 2).

This is not the local church
Eph 5:32
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

I beg your pardon? So the officers of the church in the context (4:11) were officers of the universal church but not the local church? That doesn't make sense. "A text taken out of context is a pretext."

Perhaps you are saying if the OT believers meeting was a church?

Only in a general sense, but not in the well-defined NT sense of an organized body of local believers.

It was a type of an assembly to come, as shown by Marriage supper of the Lamb or perhaps Yom Kippur

OT saints will join us

You lost me. I don't know what you mean here. (I assume you are talking to me here.)

 

[1689Dave]

Ping group: Congregation of the Lord in the OT = Congregation of Jesus Christ = Church of Jesus Christ.

 

[loDebar]

sorry John,
let me be clear, it was a universal church that had a local residence in Jerusalem and then specifically local churches in the epistles and first part of Revelation but not all usages
Jesus was referring to a universal church of believers in the Gospels.

Jesus was dealing with the world through local churches.

Was an OT saint part of a NT local church?, no, but both are part of the Universal church of believers, the body of Christ.

The complete body of believers has not been assembled yet but will be as the Marriage Supper of the Lamb

 

[loDebar]

Ping group: Congregation of the Lord in the OT = Congregation of Jesus Christ = Church of Jesus Christ.

yes, Psalms 2:22 and Hebrews 2:12

but were all of the OT congregation righteous?

 

[John of Japan]

sorry John,
let me be clear, it was a universal church that had a local residence in Jerusalem and then specifically local churches in the epistles and first part of Revelation but not all usages
Jesus was referring to a universal church of believers in the Gospels.

Jesus could be referring to a universal church of believers in Matt. 16; I'll grant that. However, not in Matt. 18, where:

1. Other individuals are mentioned who might assist in reconciliation in a local setting.
2. The church is specifically said to be meeting in a location (gathered together, v. 20)

Jesus was dealing with the world through local churches.

Was an OT saint part of a NT local church?, no, but both are part of the Universal church of believers, the body of Christ.

The complete body of believers has not been assembled yet but will be as the Marriage Supper of the Lamb

This I will accept.

 

[1689Dave]

yes, Psalms 2:22 and Hebrews 2:12

but were all of the OT congregation righteous?

It was a visible institutional State/Church with a mix of believers and non believers. The same way the Reformed view their institutional churches. But when Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross, nothing remained to make unbelievers Physical members of Israel, or physical Jews for that matter. The New Covenant Church is a continuation of the spiritual segment of the Old Testament Church.

 

[loDebar]

no, the Church is the body of Believers,
Physical membership in Israel did not make one a believer, ie, Eli the priests sons and all the kings "who did evil in the sight of the Lord"

 

[1689Dave]

no, the Church is the body of Believers,
Physical membership in Israel did not make one a believer, ie, Eli the priests sons and all the kings "who did evil in the sight of the Lord"

As I said, it was a visible institutional church/state as in the Reformation. Believers (saved) unbelievers (lost).

 

[loDebar]

Jesus could be referring to a universal church of believers in Matt. 16; I'll grant that. However, not in Matt. 18, where:

1. Other individuals are mentioned who might assist in reconciliation in a local setting.
2. The church is specifically said to be meeting in a location (gathered together, v. 20)

This I will accept.

ahh, yes two or three , a local church but all local churches, real believers, are part of the universal church individually

 

[loDebar]

As I said, it was a visible institutional church/state as in the Reformation. Believers (saved) unbelievers (lost).

unbelievers are not part of the body of Christ, usually when referring to a church we are referring to the body of Christ not the unbelievers we might share membership

 

[1689Dave]

unbelievers are not part of the body of Christ, usually when referring to a church we are referring to the body of Christ not the unbelievers we might share membership

Church = assembly of whoever assembles. When Jesus abolished circumcision, he limited his assembly to believers only.

 

[John of Japan]

Another proof that the church did not exist in the OT is that the NT metaphors for the church all point to Christ. Since the incarnation had not happened yet in the OT, the church of Jesus Christ (not Moses or Abraham or David) also could not exist in the OT.

1. It is His body, and He is the head (Eph. 5:23, Col. 1:18 & 25).
2. It is a building, with Christ as the cornerstone (Ac 4:11, Eph 2:19—22,
1 Pe 2:6-7).
3. It is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:24-28).

Without Christ earth in the incarnation, the church could not exist. It is for His glory, not that of any OT character: "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen" (Eph. 3:21).

 

[loDebar]

Another proof that the church did not exist in the OT is that the NT metaphors for the church all point to Christ. Since the incarnation had not happened yet in the OT, the church of Jesus Christ (not Moses or Abraham or David) also could not exist in the OT.

1. It is His body, and He is the head (Eph. 5:23, Col. 1:18 & 25).
2. It is a building, with Christ as the cornerstone (Ac 4:11, Eph 2:19—22,
1 Pe 2:6-7).
3. It is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:24-28).

Without Christ earth in the incarnation, the church could not exist. It is for His glory, not that of any OT character: "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen" (Eph. 3:21).

Clarify your position, Will David be in Heaven?

 

[1689Dave]

Another proof that the church did not exist in the OT is that the NT metaphors for the church all point to Christ. Since the incarnation had not happened yet in the OT, the church of Jesus Christ (not Moses or Abraham or David) also could not exist in the OT.

1. It is His body, and He is the head (Eph. 5:23, Col. 1:18 & 25).
2. It is a building, with Christ as the cornerstone (Ac 4:11, Eph 2:19—22,
1 Pe 2:6-7).
3. It is the bride of Christ (Eph. 5:24-28).

Without Christ earth in the incarnation, the church could not exist. It is for His glory, not that of any OT character: "Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen" (Eph. 3:21).

“Now I desire to remind you (even though you have been fully informed of these facts once for all) that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, later destroyed those who did not believe.” (Jude 5)