The Nature of the Church, OT and NT

[John of Japan]

The classic treatment of the church as the local body vs. the universal church is Ecclesia, by old time SBC theologian B. H. Carroll (1843-1914). I's not that long, and not a tough read, but an excellent resource. You can find a PDF of it here: http://nashpublications.com/wp-cont...ptist_Books/Ecclesia-The-Church-BHCarroll.pdf

 

[John of Japan]

Clarify your position, Will David be in Heaven?

Absolutely.

 

[John of Japan]

“Now I desire to remind you (even though you have been fully informed of these facts once for all) that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, later destroyed those who did not believe.” (Jude 5)

So the incarnation occurred at the Exodus?

I don't expect you to actually answer any point I make (you never do), so natter on.

 

[1689Dave]

So the incarnation occurred at the Exodus?

I don't expect you to actually answer any point I make (you never do), so natter on.

Jesus = YHWH. Paul says; “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” Are you implying all of the OT saints went to hell?

 

[John of Japan]

Jesus = YHWH. Paul says; “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” Are you implying all of the OT saints went to hell?

No. Are you implying there is no trinity and no incarnation?

 

[Yeshua1]

It's all a matter of degree. On the Day of Pentecost OT believers were already born again. But the Spirit poured out the Charismatic gifts which only few had in the OT. It was now more common place until the gifts ceased with the completion of the canon. The it was back to business as usual.

The Spirit though seems to come upon and then leave people when their task for God was done in the OT!

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus = YHWH. Paul says; “But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man has not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” Are you implying all of the OT saints went to hell?

They would have been regenerated and saved, but not Indwelt by the Spirit as we are now...

 

[Yeshua1]

1 Peter 1:10-11 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Yes, as the Spirit worked among and with the prophets, priests, judges, kings, but seemed to be reserved for those in offical positions for God to do!

 

[Yeshua1]

A church is the people described in Acts 2:41-47. They have gladly received the word of God, been baptized, and now they meet together, learning more of the faith, joining together in the Lord’s supper and in prayer, looking to each other’s needs, having joy in their hearts and praising God together.

A church is the people described in 1 Cor 1:2-8. They have been set apart in Christ, called in holiness, have received undeserved favour and peace from God; their knowledge of God and their witness to Him comes from the Holy Spirit, who has given them corporately all the gifts they need to function as a church, as they eagerly await the return of their Lord who will preserve them in Him until that day.

In other words, a church is Christians.

Did the Church exist in the Old Testament? Well, yes and no. In the sense that the Church is the people of God, then, yes. There were true believers in Christ before Christ. But they did not assemble together as believers. Israel was not the Church. Presbyterians point to Acts 7:38, which describes Israel as the ekklesia in the wilderness, but all that this means is that the Israelites assembled together as a body before the Tabernacle. But Israel was a ‘mixed multitude’; some indeed were truly the Lord’s people, but the large majority knew nothing of the Lord experientially (e.g. Isaiah 1:9; Jeremiah 5:1-2 ). Israel by no means met the definitions of a church that we have seen above.

In the first appearance of ekklesia in the Bible, the Lord Jesus declared, ‘I will build My church’ (Matt 16:18 ). The tense is future. Our Lord laid the foundations of His Church during His time on earth. Ephesians 2:20 tells us that this foundation is that of the ‘apostles and prophets’, and whether we believe that the prophets were of the Old or New Testament, clearly there were no apostles before the time of Christ. If there was a church in Old Testament times, then it can have had only half a foundation! In fact it is clear that Paul is speaking of the New Testament prophets since he couples apostles and prophets a little later in the letter (Eph 4:11 ) in a context that is obviously New Testament.

The Lord Jesus is continuing to build her even at this present time (Ephesians 2:21-22 ); she is His Church, His bride; He has purchased her with His own blood and she is a chaste virgin. As it is written, ‘In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of Hosts’ (Zech 14:21 ). It is the duty of the leadership of each individual church to seek to make the assembly in its charge as pure as possible (2 Cor 11:2 ).

The Church is composed of those who have come out of the world to join it. They are no longer what they were (Ephesians 5:8 ). Peter speaks of them as ‘sojourners and pilgrims’ (1 Peter 2:11 ). Therefore Abraham would have fitted into it rather well.

[Taken from my blog article What is a Church? However, the article was written some years ago and I'm not sure I would write everything exactly the same today]

So you would see the saved under the Old Covenant as being partarkers in the Church that is Spiritual israel in the NT? So the Holy Spirit was not actually 'settingup" the Church proper until day of pentacost? Could the OT belevers been regerated and had God forgive teir sins based upon the Coming Messiah, but not indwelt them as he does us today?

 

[Yeshua1]

sorry John,
let me be clear, it was a universal church that had a local residence in Jerusalem and then specifically local churches in the epistles and first part of Revelation but not all usages
Jesus was referring to a universal church of believers in the Gospels.

Jesus was dealing with the world through local churches.

Was an OT saint part of a NT local church?, no, but both are part of the Universal church of believers, the body of Christ.

The complete body of believers has not been assembled yet but will be as the Marriage Supper of the Lamb

Yes, as both OT saved and NT saved are part of Spiritual Israel, the Church/Body of Christ

 

[Yeshua1]

Clarify your position, Will David be in Heaven?

I think a man after God's own heart will be!

 

[TCassidy]

Another book of interest would be "The Local Church of the New Testament" by Richard V. Clearwaters.

It is available at https://www.amazon.com/Local-Church-New-Testament/dp/B0007FVYEE

(In the interests of full disclosure Dr. Clearwaters was president of the Seminary I attended, and one of my mentors, so I may be a bit biased in favor of him and his writings.)

 

[Martin Marprelate]

So you would see the saved under the Old Covenant as being partarkers in the Church that is Spiritual israel in the NT? So the Holy Spirit was not actually 'settingup" the Church proper until day of pentacost? Could the OT belevers been regerated and had God forgive teir sins based upon the Coming Messiah, but not indwelt them as he does us today?

I take it as a given that O.T. saints had something of the Holy Spirit; there are various texts that confirm this. I also take it as a given that the Spirit came in a fuller way at Pentecost. Whether the O.T. saints were 'regenerated,' indwelt' or both is something I do not know and decline to speculate upon.

 

[John of Japan]

Another book of interest would be "The Local Church of the New Testament" by Richard V. Clearwaters.

It is available at https://www.amazon.com/Local-Church-New-Testament/dp/B0007FVYEE

(In the interests of full disclosure Dr. Clearwaters was president of the Seminary I attended, and one of my mentors, so I may be a bit biased in favor of him and his writings.)

Yes, indeed! I have that one too.

 

[Yeshua1]

The whole point of this thread is that there are things peculiar to the church (and therefore the age of grace), and therefore the church itself is peculiar to the age of grace. No one has yet answered the OP. Here is the brief list again of things not in the "church in the wilderness":

Church at Jerusalem--Evangelism, preaching, baptism, membership ("added to them" in vv. 41 & 47), regular meetings, etc.

This is exactly how I came to agree with the doctrinal statement of my mission board. I began to see that the distinctives of the church (read Baptist distinctives) were quite different from anything in the OT, by and for the OT saints: the ordinances (baptism & the Lord's Supper), meeting on Sunday, the Great Commission and worldwide evangelism, the offices of the church (pastor and deacon), membership (a Jew being saved was not "added to the church"), etc. The mission board candidate committee thereupon acknowledged that I now agreed with the doctrinal statement, and I was appointed.

Until someone explains how OT saints did all of these things, the OP stands alone, unanswered and completely logical.

The Church was prefigured in the OT, but was NOT in existence here upon the earth until Day of pentacost, but being true Spiritual Israel, both saved OT and saved NT jews and Gentiles are part of the One Body of Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

I take it as a given that O.T. saints had something of the Holy Spirit; there are various texts that confirm this. I also take it as a given that the Spirit came in a fuller way at Pentecost. Whether the O.T. saints were 'regenerated,' indwelt' or both is something I do not know and decline to speculate upon.

I think thta we can all agree that saved OT saints were saved by Cross of Christ, are part of the Church of Christ, and we also have the Holy Spirit operating in a completed fashion with us now under the NC, as we now have all spiritual blessings in Christ.

 

[loDebar]

I take it as a given that O.T. saints had something of the Holy Spirit; there are various texts that confirm this. I also take it as a given that the Spirit came in a fuller way at Pentecost. Whether the O.T. saints were 'regenerated,' indwelt' or both is something I do not know and decline to speculate upon.

The spirit was "distributed "at Pentecost not strengthened

 

[Yeshua1]

The spirit was "distributed "at Pentecost not strengthened

To be forgiven though by God, the Spirit had to do "something" with OT saints, correct?

 

[John of Japan]

The Church was prefigured in the OT, but was NOT in existence here upon the earth until Day of pentacost, but being true Spiritual Israel, both saved OT and saved NT jews and Gentiles are part of the One Body of Christ.

The term "spiritual Israel" occurs nowhere in Scripture.

 

[Yeshua1]

The term "spiritual Israel" occurs nowhere in Scripture.

Paul alludes to it in Galatians though, as he addresses jersualem of the flesh/earthly, and the one that is spiritually and heavenly...