I have posted it before but will.find it and repost for you.
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The New Eve; "the mother of my Lord" [Luke 1:43]
- Thread starter JoeT
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I have posted it before but will.find it and repost for you.
I was brought up in a Baptist family, came to Christ (repented of my sins and trusted Christ as my Savior and Lord) at the age of eleven and was taught that if something is Catholic it has to be wrong.
Liturgy is definately part of Catholic worship and so it was to be rejected as ritualistic and repetitive praying. As an evangelical I thought the symbolism and ritual of Catholicism, Anglicanism, Lutheran or any high church as devoid of meaning, empty, rote, and mindless. Of course there have been cases or even tendencies at times for people to lose track of the meanings of their religious practices, and to do them without thinking about why they do them– but Baptists do this too– sometimes even with their prayers, devotions, church-going, etc. To say that all symbolic ritual in the Catholic church is rote and thoughtless ritualism is as uncharitable as someone saying that evangelicalism is legalistic unthoughtful literalism which practices bibliolatry with no concern for making a concrete difference in this world. But I digress!
I began a bible study in my church of the book of Hebrews and I saw just how important liturgy was for the covenant and that became increasingly evident to me as I studied the book of Hebrews. Also I found that overwhelming historical evidence exists proving it was important to the Early Church. I came to believe that liturgy represents the way God fathered his covenant people and He renewed that on a regular basis. It became evident to me as to what the relationship of the Old Testament was to the New and how the New Testament Church became a fulfillment and not an abandonment of the Old. These ideas were confirmed by the writings of the Early Church Fathers. Reading the ECF's, I began to believe that the Catholic Church might most accurately reflect the intentions of the Early Church Fathers and found other evangelicals seeking a church whose roots run deeper than the Reformation. However, I had always believed that people only leave the Catholic Church for 'True Christianity' and not the other way around. But, according to the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life’s 2007 Religious Landscape Survey, roughly 8 percent of Catholics were raised in other churches as evangelicals. This compares with 9 percent of evangelical Christians who were raised Catholic. Not much difference.
As I continued to study I became aware that the one only place where Jesus used the word 'covenant' was when He instituted 'The Lord's Supper'. Yet, we only observed communion four times a year.
I began to study the Gospel of John and became aware that the Gospel was chock full of sacramental imagery. I was raised to believe that liturgy and sacraments were to be rejected and certainly not to be studied. These things I was programed not to be open to. But going through Hebrews I noticed the writer made me see that liturgy and sacraments were an essential part of God's family life. Then in John six, I came to realize that Jesus could not have been talking metaphorically when He taught us to eat His flesh and drink His blood. The Jews in His audience would not have been outraged and scandalized by a mere symbol. Besides, if the Jews had merely misunderstood Jesus to be speaking literally and He meant His words to be taken figuratively, why would he not simply clarify them? But He never did! Nor did any other Christian for over a thousand years!
All this and the fact that my Aunt, a Baptist missionary, had announced to her family that she was becoming a Catholic and this started me looking deeper into a Church I had long considered heretical and even the Great Whore of Babylon (I had read David Hunt's book). Then I began to read some of the writings of the recent popes. Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI have been highly regarded in the evangelical community. Their writings are very focused on the person of Jesus Christ and very attentive to scripture. That was certainly important to us evangelicals.
Of course there were the questions about supposed 'Mary worship' (Catholics place Mary and the saints above Christ and Catholics bow to idols, don't they?) and I was taught in my Baptist church that Catholics believe Purgatory is place where people are given a 'Second Chance' at salvation. Of course, I knew that was un-biblical. And wasn't Catholicism a 'works-rigteousness' based religion? The list went on and on so I began to read and see for myself what the Catholics had to say to my objections to their 'un-biblical' doctrines. My first book was 'Born Fundamentalist, Born-Again Catholic' by David Currie. This answered most of the nagging questions I had had as to whether or not the Catholic Church was biblical or not. I then read 'Crossing The Tiber: Evangelicals Discover The Ancient Faith' by Steve Ray, a former Baptist. Then came books by other evangelical converts such as Scott Hahn and books by Karl Keating.
There are many other reasons why I and other former evangelicals convert to Catholicism. One reason is: Certainty
To have certainty and knowledge of truth leads many evangelicals to look elsewhere beyond all the doctrinal differences and “choose-your-own-church syndrome” within evangelical churches. I had the desire for certain knowledge, this is something I could not find within evangelical churches. If I were to ask ten evangelicals what their churches teach about marriage and divorce, how many different answers might I get?
Another reason for conversion is that I wanted to be connected to the ENTIRE history of the Christian Church and not just from the Reformation forward. I do not buy into Baptist successionism as their is a lack of historical evidence for it. Baptists trying to connect themselves to various groups that split from Catholicism prior to the Reformation falls short. Their beliefs and practices were closer to Catholicism than present day Baptists. The Waldenses are an example.
Also, I have issue with the "interpretive diversity” that occurs in evangelicalism, I prefer to accept the authority of the Catholic Church instead of trying to sort through the numerous interpretations of evangelical pastors and theologians. The authority that is found in the Catholic Church’s Magisterium has been consistant for two thousand years. The non-ending threads on the BB pitting Christian against Christian over doctrine many times resulting in either board members directly or indirectly questioning each others salvation and the myriad of denominations created because of such squabbling is evidence enough of the dangers of 'interpretive diversity' or 'individual interpretation' of scripture.
Liturgy is definately part of Catholic worship and so it was to be rejected as ritualistic and repetitive praying. As an evangelical I thought the symbolism and ritual of Catholicism, Anglicanism, Lutheran or any high church as devoid of meaning, empty, rote, and mindless. Of course there have been cases or even tendencies at times for people to lose track of the meanings of their religious practices, and to do them without thinking about why they do them– but Baptists do this too– sometimes even with their prayers, devotions, church-going, etc. To say that all symbolic ritual in the Catholic church is rote and thoughtless ritualism is as uncharitable as someone saying that evangelicalism is legalistic unthoughtful literalism which practices bibliolatry with no concern for making a concrete difference in this world. But I digress!
I began a bible study in my church of the book of Hebrews and I saw just how important liturgy was for the covenant and that became increasingly evident to me as I studied the book of Hebrews. Also I found that overwhelming historical evidence exists proving it was important to the Early Church. I came to believe that liturgy represents the way God fathered his covenant people and He renewed that on a regular basis. It became evident to me as to what the relationship of the Old Testament was to the New and how the New Testament Church became a fulfillment and not an abandonment of the Old. These ideas were confirmed by the writings of the Early Church Fathers. Reading the ECF's, I began to believe that the Catholic Church might most accurately reflect the intentions of the Early Church Fathers and found other evangelicals seeking a church whose roots run deeper than the Reformation. However, I had always believed that people only leave the Catholic Church for 'True Christianity' and not the other way around. But, according to the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life’s 2007 Religious Landscape Survey, roughly 8 percent of Catholics were raised in other churches as evangelicals. This compares with 9 percent of evangelical Christians who were raised Catholic. Not much difference.
As I continued to study I became aware that the one only place where Jesus used the word 'covenant' was when He instituted 'The Lord's Supper'. Yet, we only observed communion four times a year.
I began to study the Gospel of John and became aware that the Gospel was chock full of sacramental imagery. I was raised to believe that liturgy and sacraments were to be rejected and certainly not to be studied. These things I was programed not to be open to. But going through Hebrews I noticed the writer made me see that liturgy and sacraments were an essential part of God's family life. Then in John six, I came to realize that Jesus could not have been talking metaphorically when He taught us to eat His flesh and drink His blood. The Jews in His audience would not have been outraged and scandalized by a mere symbol. Besides, if the Jews had merely misunderstood Jesus to be speaking literally and He meant His words to be taken figuratively, why would he not simply clarify them? But He never did! Nor did any other Christian for over a thousand years!
All this and the fact that my Aunt, a Baptist missionary, had announced to her family that she was becoming a Catholic and this started me looking deeper into a Church I had long considered heretical and even the Great Whore of Babylon (I had read David Hunt's book). Then I began to read some of the writings of the recent popes. Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI have been highly regarded in the evangelical community. Their writings are very focused on the person of Jesus Christ and very attentive to scripture. That was certainly important to us evangelicals.
Of course there were the questions about supposed 'Mary worship' (Catholics place Mary and the saints above Christ and Catholics bow to idols, don't they?) and I was taught in my Baptist church that Catholics believe Purgatory is place where people are given a 'Second Chance' at salvation. Of course, I knew that was un-biblical. And wasn't Catholicism a 'works-rigteousness' based religion? The list went on and on so I began to read and see for myself what the Catholics had to say to my objections to their 'un-biblical' doctrines. My first book was 'Born Fundamentalist, Born-Again Catholic' by David Currie. This answered most of the nagging questions I had had as to whether or not the Catholic Church was biblical or not. I then read 'Crossing The Tiber: Evangelicals Discover The Ancient Faith' by Steve Ray, a former Baptist. Then came books by other evangelical converts such as Scott Hahn and books by Karl Keating.
There are many other reasons why I and other former evangelicals convert to Catholicism. One reason is: Certainty
To have certainty and knowledge of truth leads many evangelicals to look elsewhere beyond all the doctrinal differences and “choose-your-own-church syndrome” within evangelical churches. I had the desire for certain knowledge, this is something I could not find within evangelical churches. If I were to ask ten evangelicals what their churches teach about marriage and divorce, how many different answers might I get?
Another reason for conversion is that I wanted to be connected to the ENTIRE history of the Christian Church and not just from the Reformation forward. I do not buy into Baptist successionism as their is a lack of historical evidence for it. Baptists trying to connect themselves to various groups that split from Catholicism prior to the Reformation falls short. Their beliefs and practices were closer to Catholicism than present day Baptists. The Waldenses are an example.
Also, I have issue with the "interpretive diversity” that occurs in evangelicalism, I prefer to accept the authority of the Catholic Church instead of trying to sort through the numerous interpretations of evangelical pastors and theologians. The authority that is found in the Catholic Church’s Magisterium has been consistant for two thousand years. The non-ending threads on the BB pitting Christian against Christian over doctrine many times resulting in either board members directly or indirectly questioning each others salvation and the myriad of denominations created because of such squabbling is evidence enough of the dangers of 'interpretive diversity' or 'individual interpretation' of scripture.
JoeT
Member
Thank you for your prayers but they are about 1/2 century too late, scales off, eyes wide open with laser like focus - and Mary.
JoeT
I dunno what Bible version you're using, but I have 11 different English translations, & not one of them, after the virgin birth of Jesus, ascribes anything special to Mary.
The "Immaculate Deception" was a man-made idea, not found whatsoever in Scripture, & is completely false. Mary sinned, same as everyone else did, besides Jesus, had at least 6 other kids after Jesus, conceived in the usual way, & died, same as everyone else who isn't here any more.
By the fruits we do know them.
Matthew 7
15“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16“You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17“So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18“A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20“So then, you will know them by their fruits.
False prophets......dime a dozen. You came in here started with accusations, blaming and finger pointing, you already think yourself greatest saint on earth.
OSEAS, By the fruits we do know them.
I haven't seen you do anything for anyone.
Fill me in if I'm missing something.
Yes, but you cannot see if the fruit is good or bad besides your own comunity. What the Spirit of prophecy reveals expressly is that in this end of the time they will not endure sound doctrine; they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. The science has been increased and they turn away their ears from the truth, and be turned unto fables or myths.
Moreover, the Spirit expressly and clearly says that in this time of the end people will apostate, will abandon the faith giving heed to seducing spirits, - apostasies and apostates - and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
For to know if fruit is good or bad among Christians of the whole world, it is and will be possible only and only by the gift of discernment of spirit, because the Spirit searches all things, even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart, there is not any creature that is not manifest in his sight.
By the way, you did give place to a disguised and hypocrite spirit, I can discern what kind of fruits may bear from you. If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His.
The battle is against three unclean and satanic spirits like frogs, by the way a satanic trinity: Revelation 16:v.13-15:
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the MOUTH of the Dragon, and out of the MOUTH of the Beast, and out of the MOUTH of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great Day of God Almighty. ---This Day has arrived, that is The Lord's Day.---
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Here is one definition of mediatrex: a woman who mediates, especially between parties at variance. ref:
Definition of mediatrix | Dictionary.com
If you accept this definition, my question is who would you think the parties at variance are?
If you reject this definition, please share you definition of the word mediatrex and identify the parties that might be involved.
And when you pray for a fellow Christian, are you not acting as a mediator between that person and God?
She sure does seem to get a lot of ink though. From the visit of the angel to tell her she will be the mother of God Incarnate, right to the foot of the cross it seems she is mentioned more than most of the NT biblical figures are.
I've said it before, many Christians pay her little heed and discard her after the birth and some Christians perhaps elevate her too much. Isn't there a happy middle somewhere for the woman who is to be forever known as "Blessed"?
She should be remembered as the earthly mom of Jesus, but other than that, she died over 2K years ago & in paradise she doesn't know nor care what happens here.
JoeT
Member
definition of Mediatrex:
MEDIATRIX. A title of the Blessed Virgin as mediator of grace. There are two aspects of this mediation. It is certain in Catholic theology that, since Mary gave birth to the Redeemer, who is source of all grace, she is in this way the channel of all graces to mankind. But it is only probable, as a legitimate opinion, that since Mary's Assumption into heaven no grace is received by humans without her actual intercessory co-operation.
On the first level of mediation, Mary freely co-operated with God in consenting to the Incarnation, giving birth to her Son and thus sharing with him in spirit the labors of his passion and death. Yet Christ alone truly offered the sacrifice of atonement on the Cross. Mary gave him moral support in this action. She is therefore not entitled to the name "priest," as several Roman documents legislate. As explained by the Council of Florence in 1441, Christ "conquered the enemy of the human race alone" (Denzinger, 1347). In the same way he alone acquired the grace of redemption for the whole human race, including Mary. Her part in the objective redemption, therefore, was indirect and remote, and derived from her voluntary devotion to the service of Christ. Under the Cross she suffered and sacrificed with him, but subordinate to him in such a way that all the efficacy of her oblation depended on that of her Son.
On the second stage of mediation, Mary co-operates by her maternal intercession in applying Christ's redemptive grace to human beings, called the subjective redemption. This does not imply that the faithful must pray for all graces through Mary, nor that her intercession is inherently necessary for the distribution of divine blessing, but that, according to God's special ordinance, the graces merited by Christ are conferred through the actual intercessory mediation of his mother. Recent popes and the Second Vatican Council have spoken in favor of this type of mediation, which finds support in patristic tradition.[ Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J., Modern Catholic Dictionary]
JoeT
Walpole
Well-Known Member
To every Jew, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is Savior...
"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no Saviour." (Isaiah 43:11)
"Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. (Isaiah 45:21)
"Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no Saviour beside me." (Hosea 13:4)
"The God of my rock; in him will I trust: he is my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my Saviour; thou savest me from violence." (2 Samuel 22:3)
Requesting God to act on my behalf or someone else's behalf is not acting as a mediator. I am being obedient to His word.
[Jas 5:16 KJV] 16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
(No mention of a mediatrix)
Nowhere in scripture is it said to seek dead saints to pray for us.
Jesus Christ is designated by His Father to hold the office of mediator between man and His Father.
Jesus and Jesus alone fulfills this responsibility .
[1Ti 2:5 KJV] 5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
The only source of God's grace is Jesus Christ.
[Jhn 1:17 KJV] 17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
I know these verses are familiar to you, but you refuse to accept them an abide by them.
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I see you wish to remain on the discard side. Very well.
You are intervening for him/her with God, that is a description of being a "mediator".
They are not dead, they are as alive in Christ as we are. As it says in Rev 8:3-4.
…3Then another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4And the smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, rose up before God from the hand of the angel.
If the saints are dead, how can they pray?
JoeT
Member
What ever made you think that Saints are "dead"? Doesn't your faith teach that "alive" has its truest meaning in the beatific vision? Maybe you plan to go to heaven for the buffet, you do know they only serve fish?
JoeT
But the cowards, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
The Beast - the Papacy - and the false prophet p the false messiah of the Jews - were both thrown alive into the lake of FIRE that burns with sulfur. The rest - the followers of these two religious and satanic Beasts(Revelation13:1-18) were killed with the Sword that goes out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
Yeah, the idolaters, and all LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
The Beast - the Papacy - and the false prophet p the false messiah of the Jews - were both thrown alive into the lake of FIRE that burns with sulfur. The rest - the followers of these two religious and satanic Beasts(Revelation13:1-18) were killed with the Sword that goes out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
Yeah, the idolaters, and all LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
I erroneously thought you would be savvy enough to distinguish between physical and spiritual life.
Matthew 6
34“So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
Good people don't see a war. They see brothers and sisters in need of guidance. We don't need to depend on finger pointing and accusing others.
And if we are going to vilify and accuse we are better off pointing at ourselves before it ever gets to another person.
Complete tommyrot.
Mary died over 2K years ago. her soul is in paradise now, & she neither knows nor cares what's happening here. There's no Scripture assigning her any other role besides the earthly mother of Jesus. After that, nothing special is attributed to her by Scripture. The "immaculate Deception", her perpetual virginity(disproven by Scripture) and role as mediatrix are all man-made inventions & are as phony as a Chevy Mustang.
Spiritual in the pagan sense might be this abstract symbolic diet reality.
In Christianity however spiritual is taking your life and punching it up to HD High Definition.
The spiritual is MORE REAL than the physical if you are going to try to separate them.
So when we say God is Spirit, its not a fake make believe symbolism, its higher in its meanings.
As a Christian you are already have a part of you alive in Christ.
Jesus Christ teaches himself the believer never dies, never has to taste death.
Now if you think that means OH thats spiritually not REALLY, then you have the wrong sense of reality. Those in spirit might be looking down on you thinking....wow when is this guy gonna snap out of his dream.
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