The Nine Gifts of the Spirit

[The Biblicist]

It is the possibility and hope that we do Gods will, healing the sick, casting out devils, raising the dead, preaching the gospel.

How many people have you raised from the dead? If you cannot do this, it is certain you cannot do any other thing listed here either.

For the gospel comes not in word only, but in power, the same power that raised Him from the dead, to those that believe.

The context of this quote (1 Thes. 1:4-5) deals with conversion to the gospel that results in assurance and holy living. There is nothing here to support that it is being applied to sign gifts and/or miracles and wonders.

I don't doubt your sincerety, but I strongly doubt as well as challenge your understanding and interpretation of not merely scripture but your own experiences with miraculous powers.

 

[plain_n_simple]

You will not believe anything until you see it, no matter what documentation you might be presented with. Even seeing you most likely will doubt. Your gospel is a destination only.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

You may believe that if you wish. But I don't believe that there is any promise in the Bible applicable to us today for us to do miracles such as raising the dead, nor do I believe there is any historical evidence for such miracles taking place. Do you? Why therefore should one believe it? Such sign gifts were given as signs for the apostles during the apostolic age.

2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

We aren't apostles. These particular signs are not for us, and are not performed today.

There were accounts of Smith Wigglesworth raising a person from the dead.

 

[The Biblicist]

You will not believe anything until you see it, no matter what documentation you might be presented with. Even seeing you most likely will doubt. Your gospel is a destination only.

The truth is, I will not believe it until I see it confirmed in the Word of God (Isa. 8:20). Anyone can selectively jerk scriptures out of context and prove anything. You have not provided anything that is contextually based yet!

Obviously, you have failed to raise anyone from the dead or else you could report the name of the person, the date, and verify it by witnesses. Hence, why should anyone believe your intepretation of scriptures when you cannot verify what you believe in your own life??? Your position is merely a theory.

 

[DHK]

There were accounts of Smith Wigglesworth raising a person from the dead.

I suppose there may have been, and do you know who he was and what kind of reputation he had?

 

[The Biblicist]

You will not believe anything until you see it, no matter what documentation you might be presented with. Even seeing you most likely will doubt. Your gospel is a destination only.

Does not Isaiah 8:20 command us to test everything by the Scriptures? Does not 1 John 4:1 command us to test the spirits? Does not Jesus in Matthew 24:24-25 warn against those in the last days doing miracles signs and wonders in his name? Does not 2 Thes. 2:9 demand that Satan will counterfit miracles signs and wonders in the last day?

Why should I believe someone who cannot even demonstrate in their own life what they are trying to defend????

 

[DHK]

I suppose there may have been, and do you know who he was and what kind of reputation he had?

http://www.bereanresearchinstitute....h_A_Book_Review_of_Pentecostal_Teachings.html

Check the above link for the validity of the ministry of Smith Wigglesworth.

 

[saturneptune]

First of all, I am very thankful to the Lord for any gifts I have seen personally, or have in me. The only two I have not seen is tongues, and interpretation of tongues. I have no right to say they do not exist, but they do not manifest themselves in any local church I have ever served in. (only Baptist and Presbyterian). I cannot see ever going to a church that might have those gifts manifested, such as Pentecostal, Holiness, Church of God, etc.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

FWIW, according to my handbook of denominations there are over 100 sects of Church of God. Some I know are not Pentecostal.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

There are also numerous Holiness Churches that are not Pentecostal.

 

[DHK]

You will not believe anything until you see it, no matter what documentation you might be presented with. Even seeing you most likely will doubt. Your gospel is a destination only.

Look at the link I gave concerning Smith Wigglesworth.
First you can go to one of his websites where he is glorified as the apostle of Pentecostalism, and how so many miracles have been attributed to him.
But then go the link I provided. Know this. God does not work contrary to His Word, or contrary to His nature. That link provides a critique of the writings of Wigglesworth own testimony and the "miracles" that he did, and compares it to the Word of God.

The Bible says that if the prophecy of the prophet of the OT failed even one time know that he is a false prophet and he was to be put to death. He had to be accurate 100% of the time. Wiggleworth was not. In fact he himself lived in pain most of the time, and he could not cure his wife either.

Here is an example of the "healings" of Wigglesworth:

"All right," cried Brother Wigglesworth. "You can deliver yourself. Put your hands on your back where the pain is. Now command the devil to come out. Say it aloud, 'Come out, you devil, in the name of Jesus.'"

Where in the Bible do you find Jesus or the Apostles giving commands to others to "heal themselves." That is absurd. The same is true of telling someone to cast out a devil out of themselves. But he didn't base his theology on the Bible. He based it on experience. His "miracles" were not so visible, as you can see. They were inward and unknown, just like most Charismatic "faith healers" today.

They would not dare take up the challenge to go to a hospital and heal all the sick there, like a true faith healer would be able to do.
They could never duplicate the works of Jesus or even of Peter in Acts 5:16 who healed all that came to him no matter how serious the infirmity or sickness was.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: They would not dare take up the challenge to go to a hospital and heal all the sick there, like a true faith healer would be able to do.

HP: Say I lived in Jesus's day and challenged Christ or His disciples to go to the local infirmary etc, and heal all those sick and afflicted there. Would they be under any obligation to do it? Would they be proven false if they did not take the challenge? Were there not instances Christ refused to do miracles because of the unbelief of the people? Some times it says all were healed and other times maybe only just one. Sometimes they were told not to even go to certain areas period.

Regardless of whether or not we might feel those calling themselves faith healers are what they think they are, I would take issue with your remark above for obvious reasons.

 

[DHK]

HP: Say I lived in Jesus's day and challenged Christ or His disciples to go to the local infirmary etc, and heal all those sick and afflicted there. Would they be under any obligation to do it? Would they be proven false if they did not take the challenge? Were there not instances Christ refused to do miracles because of the unbelief of the people? Some times it says all were healed and other times maybe only just one. Sometimes they were told not to even go to certain areas period.

Regardless of whether or not we might feel those calling themselves faith healers are what they think they are, I would take issue with your remark above for obvious reasons.

What are your obvious reasons? Today God heals through answers to prayer. There are sporadic healings, usually individuals according to the will of God.

The OP here is the gift of healing. That gift has ceased, as demonstrated by my example which you should take no offense to. A faith healer should be able to accept such a challenge. Why? It would be the equivalent of someone with the gift of healing in the first century. This is what Peter did:

Acts 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.

The people that came to Jesus were far more in number than any in one hospital or even in all the hospitals in any given city. Look at the verse. Not only did the sick come from Jerusalem, but from ALL the cities surrounding Jerusalem. That would be thousands of people that came to Peter. How many were healed? They were healed every one.

All of them. No one was excluded: leprosy, broken bones, paraplegics, the lame, the blind, the mute, the deaf, ALL were healed. They were obvious healings--not just the headaches of todays "faith-healers." Thousands came and he healed them all--no conditions.

If a faith healer were from God today he could do the equivalent. The equivalent today would be to go where all the sick are--into the hospitals of the city, into the ER and heal ALL of them. Clean out the hospitals and put them out of business. But the gift of healing has ceased. No one can do that. No one can do what Peter did. Why? Because the gift of healing has ceased.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

If Christ were alive He would not do that either.

 

[DHK]

If Christ were alive He would not do that either.

As he said to the Pharisees, so he says to you:
Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures neither the power of God.

Mark 3:7 But Jesus withdrew himself with his disciples to the sea: and a great multitude from Galilee followed him, and from Judaea,
Mark 3:8 And from Jerusalem, and from Idumaea, and from beyond Jordan; and they about Tyre and Sidon, a great multitude, when they had heard what great things he did, came unto him.
Mark 3:9 And he spake to his disciples, that a small ship should wait on him because of the multitude, lest they should throng him.
Mark 3:10 For he had healed many; insomuch that they pressed upon him for to touch him, as many as had plagues.
Mark 3:11 And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the Son of God.

Oh, no. Jesus would never heal multitudes like Peter did! He would never do that would he?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Sometimes He did, and sometimes He did not.

 

[DHK]

Sometimes He did, and sometimes He did not.

Sometimes he did not what??

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Sometimes He did not heal anyone in certain locals, and even when He did heal in others it may have only been one that was healed, and sometimes as we both know, it was all. It varied. It was not always the same.

 

[DHK]

Sometimes He did not heal anyone in certain locals, and even when He did heal in others it may have only been one that was healed, and sometimes as we both know, it was all. It varied. It was not always the same.

That is not what I asked. I asked: Who did he refuse to heal.

Concerning "certain locales," he could no longer do miracles in Capernaum because of the hardness of their hearts." It does not say that he could no longer have compassion upon them and not heal them.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Mat 13:58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

HP: Here are cases in which Christ did not heal nor did His disciples for various reasons. At other times He did no go up to certain feasts etc. for other reasons. Now you could hace challenged Christ to heal all in those areas at that time, but to no avail. Christ chose how, when, and where to heal , and it varied from time to time and place to place.