The Nine Gifts of the Spirit

[DHK]

Your point 5. is, in part what My post was refuting. what I offered for consideration was that the 'perfect' with maybe one exception is directly and only a reference to the mature (teleios) church. And that its use never indicates it is the scripture. It's just not in the text, nor the context.

I don't believe the Lord left his disciples without a "mature church." It came at the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit empowered all believers.
Furthermore, I don't believe such an entity as "The Church" exists. The Bible speaks of churches not "the church." The word is ekklesia and is properly translated "assembly" as it is in Young's Literal Translation, and in Darby's translation. In three missionary journeys Paul established about 100 churches, but not a universal or invisible church. There is no "church" but many local churches. Every church that Paul started became a mature church. Some of them, like the one at Corinth acted very immature. They needed time to grow. But they had the tools to grow.

Paul wrote his letter to the Corinthians in 55 A.D. It is one of the earliest letters written. Many of the spiritual gifts were in operation therefore. In later epistles we don't read of the gifts at all. They were a problem in this immature church because they abused them.

Precisely because teleios is in the neuter the context dictates that "that which is perfect" would refer to the "Word of God." The word "teleios" means complete as well. When the completed word of God comes, then that which is in part (temporary gifts) will be done away.

 

[fortytworc]

I don't believe the Lord left his disciples without a "mature church." It came at the Day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit empowered all believers.
Furthermore, I don't believe such an entity as "The Church" exists. The Bible speaks of churches not "the church." The word is ekklesia and is properly translated "assembly" as it is in Young's Literal Translation, and in Darby's translation. In three missionary journeys Paul established about 100 churches, but not a universal or invisible church. There is no "church" but many local churches. Every church that Paul started became a mature church. Some of them, like the one at Corinth acted very immature. They needed time to grow. But they had the tools to grow.

Paul wrote his letter to the Corinthians in 55 A.D. It is one of the earliest letters written. Many of the spiritual gifts were in operation therefore. In later epistles we don't read of the gifts at all. They were a problem in this immature church because they abused them.

Precisely because teleios is in the neuter the context dictates that "that which is perfect" would refer to the "Word of God." The word "teleios" means complete as well. When the completed word of God comes, then that which is in part (temporary gifts) will be done away.

I may need to reconsider the terms I use. Maybe it is just semantics,but sometimes a small thing can make a big difference. Generally I use the words Church and Body of Christ interchangeably. The body of Christ, made of many members is an entity. I still honestly don't see how the 'perfect' ( mature, complete, fully grown, ) in any of the 17 uses of it as having something to do with anything except people, namely, the Body of Christ. If I take a plain reading of the verses using this term, regardless of its' application to the gifts of the Spirit, I can't see it meaning the Scripture. without trying to seem bullheaded, this may be one of the 'agree to disagree ' things on which we differ, but don't have to angrily divide over. When I read :
(Eph 4:13 [KJ2000])
"Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:"
and I look around and don't see The Body fitting this description what am I supposed to think except we aren't there yet?

 

[fortytworc]

I may need to reconsider the terms I use. Maybe it is just semantics,but sometimes a small thing can make a big difference. Generally I use the words Church and Body of Christ interchangeably. The body of Christ, made of many members is an entity. I still honestly don't see how the 'perfect' ( mature, complete, fully grown, ) in any of the 17 uses of it as having something to do with anything except people, namely, the Body of Christ. If I take a plain reading of the verses using this term, regardless of its' application to the gifts of the Spirit, I can't see it meaning the Scripture. without trying to seem bullheaded, this may be one of the 'agree to disagree ' things on which we differ, but don't have to angrily divide over. When I read :
(Eph 4:13 [KJ2000])
"Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:"
and I look around and don't see The Body fitting this description what am I supposed to think except we aren't there yet?

I guess that one thing I'm trying to say is that a simple plain reading and study of what the 'perfect' is would conclude "it is the scripture" only if that was what I decided it is from the start. The text, nor the context lead me to that. A simple word study doesn't lead me to that. What used to lead me to that conclusion was my bias to it when I was a young Christian and that was the only thing I was taught. Aside from an already made up mind there was nothing to tell me the 'perfect' was the scripture.

 

[DHK]

"Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:"
and I look around and don't see The Body fitting this description what am I supposed to think except we aren't there yet?

One of the main reasons is that it is totally out of context. The context from the first verse of chapter 12 to the last verse of chapter 14 is spiritual gifts.

1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

We come to the end of chapter 12 and we have a short list given:
1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
--This list is given in order of importance: "first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that..." The least important gift on the list is the gift of tongues, and yet people today think that it is the most important.

1 Corinthians 12:29-30 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
--These two verses show that not every speaks tongues, nor is everyone given the same gift. They are rhetorical questions meant to point out that truth.

1 Corinthians 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
--The word "covet" simply means "desire." They were to desire gifts such as teaching, not tongues. To teach a person was to edify. Tongues could not edify.
But then he says he can show them a more "excellent way," and launches into a beautiful chapter about love. But only the first seven verses speak about love. In verse 8 he returns again to spiritual gifts.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
--He is being more specific now. He confines himself to "revelatory" to gifts, those gifts which speak of the revelation of God's Word. The date is 55 A.D. Much of the NT had not been written. Tongues had been given not only as a sign to unbelieving Jews (14:21,22), but also as a prophetic gift to those who found themselves in a place where the common language of Greek was not spoken. Paul found himself in such situations often. Paul said: "I thank God that I speak in tongues (languages) more than ye all."
--Prophecy was a revelatory gift. The NT was not yet complete. It was a gift given to make up for the revelation yet to come.
--Knowledge here is not common knowledge but revelatory knowledge--the knowledge of the Bible, in those books that had not yet been written.

At some point in time these gifts would not be needed because the Bible would be complete. Revelatory gifts would cease.

1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
--The part they knew was the OT. Prophesy was given to given to give further NT knowledge.

1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
--Someday they would have the completed revelation and would no longer need those temporary gift mentioned in verse 8. As told in verse 8, they would cease.

1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
--There are three gifts mentioned here. They are in contrast to the others.
Charity or Love is the greatest. Why? Because love will never cease.
What about faith. Someday it will cease.
When Christ comes faith will cease.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

At that same time, the Coming of Christ, hope will end:
Romans 8:24-25 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Only love will carry on through eternity, and therefore is the greatest of these gifts.
Tongues, prophecy, and revelatory knowledge will cease by the end of the first century when the revelation of God will be complete.
Faith and hope will cease when Christ comes again.
Only love will carry on forever.

 

[fortytworc]

One of the main reasons is that it is totally out of context. The context from the first verse of chapter 12 to the last verse of chapter 14 is spiritual gifts.

1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

We come to the end of chapter 12 and we have a short list given:
1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
--This list is given in order of importance: "first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that..." The least important gift on the list is the gift of tongues, and yet people today think that it is the most important.

1 Corinthians 12:29-30 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
--These two verses show that not every speaks tongues, nor is everyone given the same gift. They are rhetorical questions meant to point out that truth.

1 Corinthians 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
--The word "covet" simply means "desire." They were to desire gifts such as teaching, not tongues. To teach a person was to edify. Tongues could not edify.
But then he says he can show them a more "excellent way," and launches into a beautiful chapter about love. But only the first seven verses speak about love. In verse 8 he returns again to spiritual gifts.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
--He is being more specific now. He confines himself to "revelatory" to gifts, those gifts which speak of the revelation of God's Word. The date is 55 A.D. Much of the NT had not been written. Tongues had been given not only as a sign to unbelieving Jews (14:21,22), but also as a prophetic gift to those who found themselves in a place where the common language of Greek was not spoken. Paul found himself in such situations often. Paul said: "I thank God that I speak in tongues (languages) more than ye all."
--Prophecy was a revelatory gift. The NT was not yet complete. It was a gift given to make up for the revelation yet to come.
--Knowledge here is not common knowledge but revelatory knowledge--the knowledge of the Bible, in those books that had not yet been written.

At some point in time these gifts would not be needed because the Bible would be complete. Revelatory gifts would cease.

1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
--The part they knew was the OT. Prophesy was given to given to give further NT knowledge.

1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
--Someday they would have the completed revelation and would no longer need those temporary gift mentioned in verse 8. As told in verse 8, they would cease.

1 Corinthians 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
--There are three gifts mentioned here. They are in contrast to the others.
Charity or Love is the greatest. Why? Because love will never cease.
What about faith. Someday it will cease.
When Christ comes faith will cease.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

At that same time, the Coming of Christ, hope will end:
Romans 8:24-25 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Only love will carry on through eternity, and therefore is the greatest of these gifts.
Tongues, prophecy, and revelatory knowledge will cease by the end of the first century when the revelation of God will be complete.
Faith and hope will cease when Christ comes again.
Only love will carry on forever.

I thank you for your remarks. I don't see the difference in the way I put like words and scriptures together to draw a conclusion and the manner in which many others do. Except, at least in this case (to myself anyway) my conclusions actually use words the texts contain, rather than words put in which aren't there but support my view. Iron sharpening iron in the Love which never fails. I am interested in your take on 1Cor 14 especially the 'sign to the Jews' if a post presents the opportunity.