What feasts did Jesus not go to? A Jew was required by the Law to attend the 3 feasts every year. Jesus kept the Law perfectly.
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The Nine Gifts of the Spirit
- Thread starter plain_n_simple
- Start date
What feasts did Jesus not go to? A Jew was required by the Law to attend the 3 feasts every year. Jesus kept the Law perfectly.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
In reality, He went up later to the feast I referred to, but as if in private for they asked where He was. If He was emptying out the hospitals healing all that were in them, they would have known He was there.
My point was that He did NOT always act in the same manner to all in regards to healing, and that if one challenged Him He would not have been compelled to heal in any specific manner.
My point was that He did NOT always act in the same manner to all in regards to healing, and that if one challenged Him He would not have been compelled to heal in any specific manner.
Look at a map of Israel in the time of Christ, or better yet look at a map of Israel of the time of Christ, now. From north to south you will see Galilee, Samaria, and then Judea. Jerusalem was in Judea. This was both a geographical and national command. First they were not to go into Samaria, they were to dwell around their own hometowns first. That also corresponds to the command given at the ascension in Acts 1:8. There is nothing odd about evangelizing those around your own home before going to foreign nations.
To the Samaritan woman Jesus said: "Salvation is of the Jews."
Writing to the Romans, Paul said: "I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ; it is power of God unto salvation to the Jew first and also to the Greek."
The gospel went to the Jews first.
On the Day of Pentecost 3,000 Jews were saved.
There is nothing odd about the command of Christ here.
The first part of your post simply means you didn't read my last post.
Now who did Jesus not heal?
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Any and all of those that at any given specific time and any given specific place that He simply chose not to for reasons known only by Himself. He is Sovereign you know, and can do or not do at any time and at any place anything He wisely chooses to do or not to do, healing being no exception.
Nice dodge. You made a statement. You were wrong. You don't want to admit it. So I will ask you in much more clarity.
Give me chapter and verse in the Gospels where some one came to Jesus asking to be healed and Jesus refused to heal that person.
You were the one that said Jesus did not always heal. Where in the Bible did Jesus reject anyone who wanted to be healed?
Chapter and verse please!!
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: So if I cannot argue from silence, that proves your point? Get serious. Think DHK, think. My point has never been to suggest that I know where Jesus refused to heal anyone, (other than the times He chose not go somewhere or told others not to go somewhere for purposes know only to Himself), nor has it been to suggest or imply that Jesus rejected one that wanted to be healed. Scripture is mute on both of those points.
Joh 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.
I am certain there are some things he did NOT do as well, but silence or absence of a written notation on the issue proves neither point, not yours and certainly not mine.
You are trying in vain to ignore the real issue that was raised. It was your remarks as to what a faith healer should be doing today, if one was such a person with those gifts, to which my remarks were made. I will say it again, there is absolutely NO indication that if Jesus were here today that He would have to be going to hospitals and healing all that are in there to prove anything. Neither would one healing today via the gifts possibly given to them have to prove it by going to hospitals and healing all that are there. Your assumption was false then as it is now and has not the slightest ounce of credibility or veracity to it. God can heal whoever He so chooses when He so chooses and can refuse to heal any that He so chooses whenever He so chooses to. God is not, nor would a faith healer today, be bound to your argumentation to prove anything concerning healing or the lack thereof. God, nor men of God, have to fit into a box of your making concerning who would be healed or not and as to who they must heal to be authentic.
All of what you have written supports my point. Not everything that Jesus did could be written down. Your argument is out of silence. There is no recorded instance in the Bible where he refused to heal anyone who came to him.
No, that is not the exact nature of the issue raised. The gift eventually faded away. By the end of the first century Paul did not have the gift anymore. This is evidenced by the fact of the individuals that did not get healed.
Never did I say anything about what an individual who has the gift SHOULD be doing, but rather COULD have the power to do. Peter had the power to heal all that came to him (Acts 5:16). After a while, he may not have had that power as the gift faded, as revelation became more and more complete. But no one, and I mean no one, today has that gift. If they did, they COULD demonstrate it by going through a hospital and PROVING that they the gift of healing. But they can't. They can't demonstrate that they have the gift of healing, because it has ceased. God does heal. But he heals in answer to prayer. He heals individuals. He heals according to James 5, as pastors prayer over sick ones. He heals according to the prayers of others. But there is no one who can rightly be called a "faith healer" today (such as Benny Hinn). They are frauds and charlatans who just want your money. The Bible says that such false teachers "make merchandise of the people," and so they do.
If Jesus were here today he would heal all that came to him.
The fraudsters that pose themselves as faith healers can't do that.
Why not? If it is not credible, then why can't anyone heal the masses, whether in a hospital or not? Even in a large "Christian" gathering, such as a Billy Graham crusade, no faith healer would dare go out of his own environment and into another environment (like an open stadium where Graham holds his crusades) and make the claim that he can heal all that are there! No one today has that gift.
God can come to earth and dance around as a clown, but it isn't according to his nature, neither his revealed will.
God does not go against his Word or will. His Word reveals to us that the gifts of healing and other sign gifts have ceased.
You present God just like most Roman Catholics, and so many others I have met. He is like a little genie they carry around in their pocket. Whenever they want God to do something they take "God" out of their pocket (spiritually speaking) and ask God to heal, accomplish whatever their desire is, and then they put God back into their pocket again. He is their little genie only to be called on in time of need. He is a convenience and that is all. That is how you treat God instead of finding out who our Majestic Creator really is.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: There is nothing that I have stated or implied to deserve this remark and there is not even an ounce of truth in it. One thing that does become obvious is that when you cannot provide substance for real debate, you just start taking cheap uncalled for shots at whoever it is that debates you. Go lie and falsely accuse someone else.
Then don't dote around words falsely, vainly, and to no good end. What I have said is true. The gift of healing has ceased. If it hasn't ceased you would be able to provide evidence of it such as I suggested. Instead you are offended and suggest that I serve a little god. That is what you inferred in your post. Now you are offended because I respond in kind.
So you can offend people with your unbiblical position and offensive remarks toward me, and now get offended because I describe you exactly how others really do think. They think and act just as I described you. If you don't fit that picture, fine. But there are many that do. The trouble is--you present a God that you believe that you can command to do your bidding at any time. That is false. If it were true (i.e. the gift of healing), you would be able to demonstrate it, but, alas, you cannot. You have been defeated and all you can do is complain about it.
Wow, I believe these people are an example when God mentions "worker of iniquity, I never knew you." I never heard of this guy but I cannot imagine some of the even nuttier charismatics would like this guy. Then again, they gave Todd Bentley his own channel for a long time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKUrUUvpMxE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKUrUUvpMxE&feature=related
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fortytworc
Member
I believe that this list is not exhaustive. There are more gifts of the Spirit. There is no Scripture that clearly states that any of the gifts have ceased
plain_n_simple
Active Member
I agree, there are more, and none have ceased.
You cannot add new prophecies to the Bible, prophecies ceased, just as the Bible says they would.
fortytworc
Member
I assume this is just a simple poll and not a place for possible long, drawn out, most likely heated (sigh) debate. Some points of contention have been presented. This is your poll and I want to respect it as such.
plain_n_simple
Active Member
Feel free to say what you want
fortytworc
Member
Thank you. I may need to wait until my current dose of Parkinson's meds kick in. That could take some time. I will be back. Hey, maybe someone could pray for me to be healed. Since most agree God heals with\without 'sign' gifts, maybe He will heal me.
fortytworc
Member
In this discussion of the gifts of the Spirit I would like to begin with a statement I think we can all agree on: *At one time in what is generally called the history of the New Testament
Church The Holy Spirit of God gave what we call 'Gifts of the Holy Spirit' to His church.*
I think that everything else said about these gifts is disputed for various reasons.
These gifts were given to various people in the church as
the Spirit willed. They were given to the church to build up and equip the church to function as the many member one Body of Jesus and spread the Good News of Jesus to the world.
Though there were many gifts and many members there was one body.
Many teach that certain 'sign gifts' were given for a brief time in the early church and then ceased after their purpose was served and they were no longer needed.
People may disagree on much of the particulars of these gifts but I think the main ones debated about are found in 1 Corinthians 13:1-13.
(1Cor 13:1[ESV])
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
(1Cor 13:2
And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
(1Cor 13:3
If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
(1Cor 13:4
Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant
(1Cor 13:5
or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;
(1Cor 13:6
it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth.
(1Cor 13:7
Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
(1Cor 13:8
Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.
(1Cor 13:9
For we know in part and we prophesy in part,
(1Cor 13:10
but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
(1Cor 13:11
When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
(1Cor 13:12
For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
(1Cor 13:13
So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
I beleave the main argument goes something like this: 'The specific gifts of prophecy, tongues, and knowledge were to cease when "the perfect comes.'
Other sign gifts were given mainly to the Apostles to authenticate there authority in the church. Slowly, as the Apostles died
(some say this would include those whom the Apostles had directly laid hands on to impart some gifts) these sign gifts ceased. Some of the other sign gifts
would include gifts of healings and gifts of working miracles.
Prophecies, tongues, and knowledge ceased when the Scriptures were complete, it is said because it is "that which is perfect" and complete.
There are no new prophecies because any true prophecy would be Scripture but they were completed long ago. Tongues ceased with the perfect completion of the Bible
because verse 10 of 1 Corinthians says they would cease "when the perfect (the completed Scriptures)come.
Knowledge (the gift of knowing something that the Holy Spirit lets you know) stopped because all we need to know from God is now told to us through the Scriptures.
Is "the perfect" the Scriptures? The word translated "perfect" is
- Original: τέλειος
- Transliteration: Teleios
- Phonetic: tel'-i-os
- Definition:
1. brought to its end, finished
2. wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3. perfect
4. that which is perfect
a. consummate human integrity and virtue
b. of men
1. full grown, adult, of full age, mature
- Origin: from H5056
- TDNT entry: 09:07,1
- Part(s) of speech: Adjective
and it is used 17 times in the New Testament. Here are the verses:
(Matt 5:48 [ASV])
Ye therefore shall be perfect, as you’re heavenly Father is perfect.
(Matt 19:21 [ASV])
Jesus said unto him, If thou wouldest be perfect, go, sell that which thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
(Rom 12:2 [ASV])
And be not fashioned according to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
(1Cor 2:6 [ASV])
We speak wisdom, however, among them that are fullgrown (teleios): yet a wisdom not of this world, nor of the rulers of this world, who are coming to nought:
(1Cor 13:10 [ASV])
but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.
(1Cor 14:20 [ASV])
Brethren, be not children in mind: yet in malice be ye babes, but in mind be men.(teleios)
(Eph 4:13 [ASV])
till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown(teleios) man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
(Phil 3:15 [ASV])
Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, be thus minded: and if in anything ye are otherwise minded, this also shall God reveal unto you:
(Col 1:28 [ASV])
whom we proclaim, admonishing every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ;
(Col 4:12 [ASV])
Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ Jesus, saluteth you, always striving for you in his prayers, that ye may stand perfect and fully assured in all the will of God.
(Heb 5:14 [ASV])
But solid food is for fullgrown(teleios) men, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good and evil.
(Heb 9:11 [ASV])
But Christ having come a high priest of the good things to come, through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation,
(Jas 1:4 [ASV])
And let patience have its perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, lacking in nothing.
(Jas 1:17 [ASV])
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom can be no variation, neither shadow that is cast by turning.
(Jas 1:25 [ASV])
But he that looketh into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and so continueth, being not a hearer that forgetteth but a doer that worketh, this man shall be blessed in his doing.
(Jas 3:2 [ASV])
For in many things we all stumble. If any stumbleth not in word, the same is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body also.
(1John 4:18 [ASV])
There is no fear in love: but perfect love casteth out fear, because fear hath punishment; and he that feareth is not made perfect in love.
This word is almost Entirely used with direct reference to People! At no time is the 'perfect' used for an object. The maturity of his people is what the 'perfect' is.
There is reference made to when certain "Gifts to the church" will cease in Eph 4:7-14
(Eph 4:7 [ESV])
But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift.
(Eph 4:8
Therefore it says,” When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”
(Eph 4:9
(In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth?
(Eph 4:10
He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)
(Eph 4:11
And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers,
(Eph 4:12
to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
HERE IT IS! FOR HOW LONG?
V V V V V
(Eph 4:13
until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,
(Eph 4:14
so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.
The gifts of the Spirit will be given when His church Grows Up. The perfect is the mature Body of Christ
I've said before, and I repeat it: I do not claim to have all the answers to the questions that this will bring up. I do know some of what presents itself as 'Plain and Simple'
I think that's all I can tackle right now. Thanks to those who provide BB and to those who help me participate.
I see five specific problems to your analysis:
1. The term "perfect" translates a Greek term that is found in the Neuter. Hence, it cannot refer to Christ and His coming.
2. Ephesians 4:13 is not speaking about when Christ comes but when maturity is reached so that you be no longer tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine as defined by verses 14-15. That is a near objective and a present objective that every Pastsor not only aims for but succeeds in obtaining in many cases here and now.
3. The gifts can be clearly divided into three categories:
a. Sign gifts associated with apostolic office and apostolic laying on of hands - 1 Cor. 12/ 2 Cor. 12:12
b. Servant gifts - Eph. 4:11-12
c. Serivice gifts - Romans 12:7-10
4. Tongues cease prior to the gifts of knowledge and prophecy - 1 Cor. 13:8
5. Knowledge and prophecy are "part" gifts until that which is "perfect" completes - Isaiah 8:16-18 predicts the completion of the scriptures through the disciples of Christ - Heb. 2:3-4, 10-12. The "now" in 1 Cor. 13:11-13 is the apostolic age. The "then" is the maturing of the scriptures to completion as illustrated by the two analogies (child growing up; current brass mirror that does not give a full and clear image to the finished word of God that gives a complete picture of God's revelation. Until that finished revelation occurs, the maturity level of Christians may be judged by three moral principles - faith hope and love. On the basis of these principles Paul judges the proper and mature use of spiritual gifts in chapter 14.
1. The term "perfect" translates a Greek term that is found in the Neuter. Hence, it cannot refer to Christ and His coming.
2. Ephesians 4:13 is not speaking about when Christ comes but when maturity is reached so that you be no longer tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine as defined by verses 14-15. That is a near objective and a present objective that every Pastsor not only aims for but succeeds in obtaining in many cases here and now.
3. The gifts can be clearly divided into three categories:
a. Sign gifts associated with apostolic office and apostolic laying on of hands - 1 Cor. 12/ 2 Cor. 12:12
b. Servant gifts - Eph. 4:11-12
c. Serivice gifts - Romans 12:7-10
4. Tongues cease prior to the gifts of knowledge and prophecy - 1 Cor. 13:8
5. Knowledge and prophecy are "part" gifts until that which is "perfect" completes - Isaiah 8:16-18 predicts the completion of the scriptures through the disciples of Christ - Heb. 2:3-4, 10-12. The "now" in 1 Cor. 13:11-13 is the apostolic age. The "then" is the maturing of the scriptures to completion as illustrated by the two analogies (child growing up; current brass mirror that does not give a full and clear image to the finished word of God that gives a complete picture of God's revelation. Until that finished revelation occurs, the maturity level of Christians may be judged by three moral principles - faith hope and love. On the basis of these principles Paul judges the proper and mature use of spiritual gifts in chapter 14.
fortytworc
Member
I re-read my post and could not find that I said it referred to His second coming. Basically I agree with you on your point 1.
On your point 2. Still basic agreement.
No problem with your point 3.
Disagree on 4. I don't see your point in the scripture reference.
Your point 5. is, in part what My post was refuting. what I offered for consideration was that the 'perfect' with maybe one exception is directly and only a reference to the mature (teleios) church. And that its use never indicates it is the scripture. It's just not in the text, nor the context.
fortytworc
Member
Concerning the gift of phophecy:
Prophecies ceased when the Scriptures were complete, the argument goes, because the Scripture is "that which is perfect" and complete.
There are no new prophecies because any true prophecy would be Scripture but, the canon of scripture was determined and completed hundreds of years ago.
- Original: προφητεία
- Transliteration: Propheteia
- Phonetic: prof-ay-ti'-ah
- Definition:
1. prophecy
a. a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden; esp. by foretelling future events
b. Used in the NT of the utterance of OT prophets
1. of the prediction of events relating to Christ's kingdom and its speedy triumph, together with the consolations and admonitions pertaining to it, the spirit of prophecy, the divine mind, to which the prophetic faculty is due
2. of the endowment and speech of the Christian teachers called prophets
3. the gifts and utterances of these prophets, esp. of the predictions of the works of which, set apart to teach the gospel, will accomplish for the kingdom of Christ
- Origin: "from H4396 ("prophecy")"
- TDNT entry: 19:02,0
- Part(s) of speech: Noun Feminine
Here we see the word which is transliterated 'prophecy'
We can also see that most of the definitions concerning this word have simply to do with "Speaking from Devine insperation. Only a part of this word's use pertains to telling the future.
Speaking from Divine inspiration is akin to saying that the Founders of the united States of America were led by the Spirit of God and produced a form of government and a set of documents which were nothing short of inspired by God.
We speak of many thins as being Spirit led and inspired by God. But we don't ad them to uor current compilation of books we call the Bible.
Now if someone still says that when anyone speaks "a word from the Lord," or a "Prophetic word It should be written down and added to the Bible. (all the while we know this won't happen because the Bible is 'Complete and Perfect."
I would encourage you to consider thes Scriptures :
Luke 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess...
(Acts 21:8 [KJV])
And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.
9
And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.
10
And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.
11
And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles .
In these we find those recognized by the New Testament Church as Prophets and Prophetess. But What is missing?...There is no compilation of writings or speaches, or chapters in the Bible about their prophecies.
There is no Book of ...Anna...nor of Phillip the Evangelists daughters...no Book of Agabus.
Since 1.) 'The Perfect' is the fully grown, mature Church ( which has not yet been something we can say we are).
2.) Most Divinely Inspired speach (prophecy) is not Bible.
3.) the only time frame given for the cessation of any of the Gifts of the Spirit is When the Church, (Body) of God Christ is Mature, and United Ephesians 4:11-14.
I believe I can confidently say that all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still extant. Whoa!! I forgot I even had that word floating around up there somewhere.
Concerning the gift of prophecy:
Prophecies ceased when the Scriptures were complete, the argument goes, because the Scripture is "that which is perfect" and complete.
There are no new prophecies because any true prophecy would be Scripture but, the canon of scripture was determined and completed hundreds of years ago.
- Original: προφητεία
- Transliteration: Propheteia
- Phonetic: prof-ay-ti'-ah
- Definition:
1. Prophecy
a. a discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden; esp. by foretelling future events
b. Used in the NT of the utterance of OT prophets
1. Of the prediction of events relating to Christ's kingdom and its speedy triumph, together with the consolations and admonitions pertaining to it, the spirit of prophecy, the divine mind, to which the prophetic faculty is due
2. Of the endowment and speech of the Christian teachers called prophets
3. The gifts and utterances of these prophets, esp. of the predictions of the works of which, set apart to teach the gospel, will accomplish for the kingdom of Christ
- Origin: "from H4396 ("prophecy")"
- TDNT entry: 19:02, 0
- Part(s) of speech: Noun Feminine
Here we see the word which is transliterated 'prophecy'
We can also see that most of the definitions concerning this word have simply to do with "Speaking from Devine inspiration. Only a part of this word's use pertains to telling the future.
Speaking from Divine inspiration is akin to saying that the Founders of the united States of America were led by the Spirit of God and produced a form of government and a set of documents which were nothing short of inspired by God.
We speak of many thins as being Spirit led and inspired by God. But we don't ad them to our current compilation of books we call the Bible.
Now if someone still says that when anyone speaks "a word from the Lord," or a "Prophetic word it should be written down and added to the Bible. (All the while we know this won't happen because the Bible is 'Complete and Perfect."
I would encourage you to consider these Scriptures:
Luke 2:36 and there was one Anna, a prophetess...
(Acts 21:8 [KJV])
And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.
9
And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.
10
And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.
11
And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.
In these we find those recognized by the New Testament Church as Prophets and Prophetess. But What is missing?...There is no compilation of writings or speeches, or chapters in the Bible about their prophecies.
There is no Book of ...Anna...nor of Phillip the Evangelists daughters...no Book of Agabus.
Since 1.) 'The Perfect' is the fully grown, mature Church (which has not yet been something we can say we are).
2.) Most Divinely Inspired speech (prophecy) is not Bible.
3.) The only time frame given for the cessation of any of the Gifts of the Spirit is When the Church, (Body) of God Christ is Mature, and United Ephesians 4:11-14.
I believe I can confidently say that all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still extant. Whoa!! I forgot I even had that word floating around up there somewhere.