The Number Of God’s Elect

[Martin Marprelate]

How often have I read in various Facebook theological discussions the declaration of a Calvinist – “Freewill is not taught in Scriptures”?

Of Free Will — The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith

Chapter 9

www.the1689confession.com

 

[Silverhair]

Of Free Will — The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith

Chapter 9

www.the1689confession.com

I know you are not making the claim that the LBCF of is to be considered scripture.

But pointing to that does not deal with what was said in the post does it.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I know you are not making the claim that the LBCF of is to be considered scripture.

But pointing to that does not deal with what was said in the post does it.

I'm not making any claim at all, other than that the 1689 Confession does not deny free will. That is all.

 

[Tea]

I could go on, but you get the idea, Calvinism is based on reading into scripture conjecture, whereas my views are based on what is actually said.

The fundamental principles of Calvinism can stand alongside every one of the verses you cited.

Ok, one more 2 Thessalonians 2:13, God chooses individuals for salvation through faith in the truth, not God chooses individuals unconditionally, then gives them faith...

In the verse, being chosen encompasses all that God means for it to encompass, including sanctification and belief in the truth. Being chosen comes before everything else.

So as you can see, we are not altering the scripture; we are simply letting it say what it says.

 

[Silverhair]

I'm not making any claim at all, other than that the 1689 Confession does not deny free will. That is all.

Well I read through the LBCF Chap 9 on free will and what they call free will is not actual free will is it. It presents a false understanding of what free will is.

The calvinist free will is just the free will to do what has been determined for him to do. According to Paragraph 3. "Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation;"

But what we see in scripture is that God expects man to make real choices regarding salvation and will hold them accountable for the choices they make.

 

[Van]

The fields are white for harvest and labors can hasten the day of Christ's return, as the number to be elected has been predetermined by God.

Matthew 24:22 provides an indirect indication that a fixed number will be reached, and then the end will come. Here is a version of the verse:

If those days had not been shortened, no flesh would have been saved, but on account of the elect, those days will be shortened.​

 

[Charlie24]

God has never purposed or intended to save all mankind.There is no character assination when someone speaks the truth about God.In your made up story, and made up version, you could say that, but in realirt irt is not so, and has never been so.

Well now, we certainly disagree, but arguing will accomplish nothing just make the situation worse.

 

[Reformed]

It is often asserted that the doctrine of predestination and election was the invention of Augustine during the 4th century. I did some digging to see if there were any extra-biblical sources on predestination going back to the Apostolic Period and was intrigued by an epistle called “First Clement” written some time around 97 AD.

Clement of Rome (also known as Pope Clement I by our Catholic friends) had written to the church in Corinth rebuking them for removing their elders and urging that they be restored. He also makes mention of the elect in various places throughout, but the most eye-opening is what is found in the second chapter.

Full of holy designs, you did, with true earnestness of mind and a godly confidence, stretch forth your hands to God Almighty, beseeching Him to be merciful unto you, if you had been guilty of any involuntary transgression. Day and night you were anxious for the whole brotherhood, that the number of God's elect might be saved with mercy and a good conscience.

Notice the utilization of language that is very similar to Acts 13:48 (as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.) Just as it was with the Apostle Luke, Clement didn’t stop and explain the subject of election and predestination; he only mentioned it in passing and moved on.

I went even further and looked at the original language. The Greek word for “number” is “ἀριθμὸν,” a singular noun that indicates a specific total sum amount. In other words, Clement understood that the number of God’s elect was fixed and unchanging, having been determined prior to creation.

Ephesians 1:4 (ESV)
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.

I'm late to the party here and don't have the time to read every response, so forgive me if I cover ground others have tread.

No other theologian during the Patristic age delved into predestination and election like Augustine. Why? The early church was rife with heresies that tried to destroy the fledgling church through doctrinal corruption. Heresies such as Ebionism, Gnosticism, Monarchianism, Manicheism, Arianism, Montanism et al. figuratively took all the doctrinal oxygen out of the room. These were the big issues of the time. After Augustine's passing the papacy ascended into the dominant theological power. It wasn't until the Reformation that real theological scholarship gained traction.

 

[Zaatar71]

Well now, we certainly disagree, but arguing will accomplish nothing just make the situation worse.

I am not arguing, just stating easily proven scripture truth

 

[Charlie24]

I am not arguing, just stating easily proven scripture truth

Truth to your interpretation. Most Christians don't see it your way.

Most are convinced Christ is the satisfaction for the sins of the whole world, and He desires all men every where to repent.

It's the Calvinists that deny it, along with many other things.

 

[Zaatar71]

Truth to your interpretation. Most Christians don't see it your way

That is a subjective opinion.

Most are convinced Christ is the satisfaction for the sins of the whole world,

He is, in that there is no other satisfaction, but not for everyone's sins, or no one would be cast into hell.

and He desires all men every where to repent.

God does not wish anything, God decrees exactly who will be saved. If all men would repent and believe, he would save them all....but they will not, and in fact multitudes are perishing as we speak, without Jesus.Those perishing were never elected, so they remain in sin, bound by it.

nd spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and sucklingIt's the Calvinists that deny it, along with many other things.

Calvinists believe all the verses, and understand the implications of what is declared in scripture.
Charlie, explain to me, how God desired the salvation of all these Amalekites??? 1sam15;
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

 

[Charlie24]

That is a subjective opinion.

He is, in that there is no other satisfaction, but not for everyone's sins, or no one would be cast into hell.

God does not wish anything, God decrees exactly who will be saved. If all men would repent and believe, he would save them all....but they will not, and in fact multitudes are perishing as we speak, without Jesus.Those perishing were never elected, so they remain in sin, bound by it.

Calvinists believe all the verses, and understand the implications of what is declared in scripture.
Charlie, explain to me, how God desired the salvation of all these Amalekites??? 1sam15;
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

I don't know why you want me to explain, it will make no difference at all!

In His foreknowledge He knew the pagans in the Promised Land would never believe in Him, just as He knew Pharaoh would never believe.

The Lord destroyed them, all of them in the OT that stood in the way of Israel becoming a nation for the Messiah to be born and fulfill Scripture.

God has never wanted to destroy anyone in the OT, He had no choice but the destroy them, If not, Israel would have never been established and the Scripture would fail in prophecy.

 

[Zaatar71]

I don't know why you want me to explain, it will make no difference at all!

It might make a difference to you Charlie

In His foreknowledge He knew the pagans in the Promised Land would never believe in Him, just as He knew Pharaoh would never believe.

Even with your wrong use of the term foreknowledge, look how you contradict your own statement...watch

The Lord destroyed them, all of them in the OT that stood in the way of Israel becoming a nation for the Messiah to be born and fulfill Scripture.

God has never wanted to destroy anyone in the OT, He had no choice but the destroy them,

So Charlie, can you see it? If non elect persons are going to be destroyed, as you declare ,He had no choice, then if according to your wrong use of foreknowledge...He knew the pagans in the promised land would never believe in Him...He never planned to save them!

If not, Israel would have never been established and the Scripture would fail in prophecy.

In working through this question, you almost answer your own declaration. See the inconsistency? God in your view desired to save all men, but found out, He cannot??? This is wrong on so many levels. An Omniscient God had to learn who would and who would never believe in Him. He desired to save them, but He cannot???

 

[DaveXR650]

Well I read through the LBCF Chap 9 on free will and what they call free will is not actual free will is it. It presents a false understanding of what free will is.

The calvinist free will is just the free will to do what has been determined for him to do. According to Paragraph 3. "Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation;"

But what we see in scripture is that God expects man to make real choices regarding salvation and will hold them accountable for the choices they make.

It seems like that LBCF ch. 9 is just trying to show what the fall did to us and show that we need God's help to come to him. I wouldn't make too much of it. I mean, a Canadian speaking to an Englishman might want to explain to this American why you like Canada more than England, and Martin likes England more than Canada or America, and I like America more that Canada or England. (Although we are eying Canada). Are our beliefs in that case really due to autonomous free will or do you tend to like the place where you are born and raised? Just like we like our fallen prideful world and natures and have no reason to move toward God on our own.

 

[kyredneck]

(Although we are eying Canada)

EGAD! Please no, Lord!

 

[Silverhair]

It seems like that LBCF ch. 9 is just trying to show what the fall did to us and show that we need God's help to come to him. I wouldn't make too much of it. I mean, a Canadian speaking to an Englishman might want to explain to this American why you like Canada more than England, and Martin likes England more than Canada or America, and I like America more that Canada or England. (Although we are eying Canada). Are our beliefs in that case really due to autonomous free will or do you tend to like the place where you are born and raised? Just like we like our fallen prideful world and natures and have no reason to move toward God on our own.

But what the LBCF Ch 9 gives us is just man's opinion. It has more to do with supporting a particular theological view than it does with the word of God or with human reality.

God has provided various means to draw man to Himself but according to the LBCF it is impossible for man to respond to those drawings "has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation;" and yet God holds man responsible for not doing so. So either the LBCF is wrong when saying man cannot turn in faith or God is disingenuous in holding man responsible for something he cannot do.

Yes in this fallen world man tends to sin but to say they cannot or will not respond to the drawing of God is not supported by the word of God. Man has responded to the means of overcoming death in the OT via turning to the bronze serpent Num_21:9 or in the NT by turning to the risen Christ in faith. Joh 3:14-15

 

[Silverhair]

EGAD! Please no, Lord!

Have to agree with your comment KY "EGAD! Please no, Lord!"

Why would we want to join a nation that is tearing itself apart?