Again I ask, tell us about where YOU worship and what kind of stuff you follow. Is it the lady who came for nowhere with her gobbledegook?
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The pagan roots of Easter
- Thread starter Hobie
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Again I ask, tell us about where YOU worship and what kind of stuff you follow. Is it the lady who came for nowhere with her gobbledegook?
And as I educated YOU - Jesus was crucified on a CROSS.
That's where the christian symbol of the cross comes from - NOT some pagan culture from another time.
As for the whole Dagon/Fish worship nonsense - I already explained that to you. And you don't get your history from "authentic" sources because this is debunkable nonsense - as I have already proven.
YOUR problem is that you don't know your Church history - hence your abject ignorance.
The ICHTHUS ("Fish" symbol) is an ancient symbol that goes ALL the way back to FIRST century Christianity.
The ICHTHUS carving on the right is from 1st century Ephesus:
Good grief - do your HOMEWORK . . .
MORE HORSE FEATHERS !
In your zeal to defend your cult, you missed my points entirely, which was to show that several now-revered symbols had pagan roots, same as some Easter practices.
You may do your own research to see that T-shaped crosses were pagan symbols before Jesus came. And the Romans had been practicing crucifixion long before Jesus came.
And before Christianity, I gave you one example of the pagan use of a fish symbol. You chose to squawk about Christians later adapting it.
And I said that the swastika, now a universal symbol of evil, was once a sign of good luck in several cultures.
You, or anyone else, may Google those facts for authenticity & veracity. I don't care if you believe them or not.
Yes, Jesus
Ummmmm, I wasn't arguing about the fact that Roman crucifixion went on before Christ. Of course it did.
I was arguing the point that as a Christian symbol - it was NOT adopted from paganism. It is merely the symbol of the instrument on which Christ made His ultimate sacrifice for humanity which has NOTHING to do with paganism any more than a sword does.
As for the fish/Dagon symbol - again, this was NOT adopted from paganism, as I explained. Although there ARE things that were adopted from paganism, such as wedding rings - which were later "Christianized" - the fish symbol was 100% Christian and had nothing to do with Dagon worship.
I was merely pointing to the fact that you misrepresented the origins of TWO Christian symbols.
So much for "Googling the facts" . . .
And I was pointing out that both of those symbols were previously used by pagans.
It's the same for Easter. The egg-laying bunnies, easter bonnets, egg hunts, hot-cross buns at Eastertime, etc. all came from the German spring rite into which Constantine's catholic missionaries wove the story of Jesus' resurrection.
Not at all sinful to observe Jesus' resurrection, the centerpiece of Christianity !
And MY point is that some of the things that pagans just happened to do before the age of Christianity, doesn't mean that Christians GOT these practices from pagans and "Christianized" them as YOU falsely assert.
Pagans drank water before the age of Christianity. Does that mean that drinking water is a "pagan" practice that we adopted??
How about sleeping or eating??
Your position is nonsense.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Well,
Admittedly you have asked Hobie, but I'll throw in...
I don't worship anywhere in particular, but I do worship Him always.
I get together with fellow believers in my own home to rejoice in my salvation by the grace of God, and I praise Him for His mercy and kindness to me.
In the process of this assembling together ( Hebrews 10:25 ), we edify and build one another up in the faith, and teach the Scriptures.
I don't feel that I need a temple to go to, and I stopped celebrating holidays some years ago now.
If we need a building bigger than one's home, I'm sure the Lord will provide it.
However, I see the real focus being God's people worshiping Him in spirit and in truth ( John 4:24 ).
His people are built up a spiritual house of lively stones ( 1 Peter 2:5 ) that have the Holy Spirit as both Comforter and Teacher, and wherever two or three of them are gathered together, there the Lord is in the midst of them ( Matthew 18:20 ).
In other words, it's the people who are the church, not the building.
We don't generally observe "times and seasons" ( Galatians 4:8-11 ), but if we regard days, we do so unto the Lord...
If we don't, we don't ( Romans 14:5-8 ).
If my brothers and sisters wish to pay special remembrance to "Easter" ( Christ's resurrection ), they have the right to do so, and I will not judge them for it.
Personally, I find no reason to do so, as that event happened a long time ago, and He is now sitting at the right hand of the Father making intercession for me.
In addition, I don't tend to look back at events that happened 2,000 years ago, except for what he did on a cross for me...
I do look for His coming again, which to me, won't be soon enough.
As for what I follow, I follow Christ and His every word ( Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4 ) as revealed in the Scriptures.
Generally I'm known as a "Baptist" because I see the Scriptural proof for "believer's baptism";
I'm also known as a "Particular Baptist" because I see the Scriptural proof for God's electing grace in salvation...
With man's efforts completely ruled out as having any determining factor in gaining or staying in, God's grace.
That "state of grace" is, was, and always will be determined by God ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18 ), not men.
Eternal life is for the elect, and is a gift given by God to them.
Whosoever believes in Him ( from the heart ) shall never perish, but does indeed have that gift.
I know where "Easter" came from, historically, and I also know what it symbolizes today.
Until sometime after the first century, it didn't even exist as a dedicated day set aside for celebration.
All that existed was Jesus Christ's work on the cross and believers knowing that He would come again.
All the rest that we see and experience today came in gradually over many centuries.
Truth be told, I'd prefer to wipe the slate clean and go back to what was in AD 50, as I firmly believe that too many things have worked their way in to take every believer's attention off what is really important:
Jesus Christ the Son of the living God, Him crucified for my sins, and His promised return.
I wish you well, and may God's wisdom and grace be upon you, sir.
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Hobie
Well-Known Member
Very nice my brother. You have Gods peace in the middle of this challenge around us.
I think you're missing the point. You are claiming that origins of symbols are very important and should never be christianized, and for that matter, can never be christianized. To be consistent, you'd have to give up a lot of things, including the Cross.
The problem is, you've not given a compelling biblical argument as to why something can never be christianized—why a symbol of old cannot be given new meaning. I see nothing in Scripture prohibiting this.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
Need to open your eyes and see what is in plain sight..
In Kings, King Hezekiah institutes an iconoclastic reform that requires the destruction of "the brazen serpent that Moses had made; for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it; and it was called Nehushtan". The term means "a brazen thing, a mere piece of brass".[1] .....Nehushtan - Wikipedia
2 Kings 18:4 He removed the high places, shattered the sacred pillars, and cut down the Asherah poles. He also demolished the bronze snake called Nehushtan that Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had burned incense to it.
In Kings, King Hezekiah institutes an iconoclastic reform that requires the destruction of "the brazen serpent that Moses had made; for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it; and it was called Nehushtan". The term means "a brazen thing, a mere piece of brass".[1] .....Nehushtan - Wikipedia
2 Kings 18:4 He removed the high places, shattered the sacred pillars, and cut down the Asherah poles. He also demolished the bronze snake called Nehushtan that Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had burned incense to it.
That is the exact OPPOSITE of what is being discussed here.
Nehushtan worship was a pagan practice that originated from an image that was constructed by the command of GOD Himself - not the other way around.
We also have to be careful when looking to God's interactions with Israel. Israel was its own nation, a theocratic nation, with its own government and laws. God gave them specific holidays and symbols and specifically instructed the removal things that were used to worship other gods. God was actually prohibiting other religions in Israel.
We are in the Church age. The Church is not Israel, and not its own nation. We live within other nations and respect their laws and sovereignty (including their borders). We are under grace and governed by passages like Romans 14.
And even in your example, you show how a symbol went from good to bad, from correct observance, to incorrect observance. This is the whole point. It's not the symbol, it's how you look at it and what you do with it.
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And Jeroboam said in his heart, Now shall the kingdom return to the house of David:
Whereupon the king took counsel, and made two calves of gold, and said unto them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt. And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan. And this thing became a sin: for the people went to worship before the one, even unto Dan.
Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
When Paul spoke of the cross did he envision a symbol hanging from a chain about one's neck?
In a way does that symbol try and show baptism? Show us a sign.
Arguments for the most part are incoherent. Usually they'll plaster up a verse with no explanation. I'd say it's more of an emotional response than rational one.
Hobie
Well-Known Member
It turned into a idol to the people and they were worshipping it, something that is a abomination to God.
Ezekiel 14:6
Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.
Exactly. Supports many of the points being made here. It's not the object, it's what you do with it, how you view it.
If I saw someone bowing down to a Christmas Tree and worshiping it, I'd tell them get rid of it. Otherwise, it's fine.
And if you can't get over the fact that some ancient people somewhere looked at a particular symbol in a certain way, then you have to follow your conscience. I just think it's kind of a strange way to approach this subject. If you're going to be consistent, you really would have to get rid of just about everything.
Absolutely - but that is NOT what we do when asking a saint in Heaven to pray for us.
A I have posted several times already - "Pray" does NOT mean "worship".
In fact "Worship" is only a secondary definition. "Pray" simply means to ASK.
Definition of the word “PRAY”:
Merriam-Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary:
Full Definition of pray
transitive verb
1: entreat, implore —often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea<pray be careful>
2: to get or bring by praying
intransitive verb
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving
Jesus PRAYED to people ALL the time . . .
(Matt. 5:46, Matt. 5:47, Matt. 6:27, Matt. 6:28, Matt. 7:3, Matt. 7:16, Matt. 8:26, Matt. 9:4, Matt. 9:5, Matt. 9:15, Matt. 9:28, Matt. 11:7, Matt. 11:16, Matt. 12:11, Matt. 12:29, Matt. 12:34, Matt. 12:48, Matt. 14:31, Matt. 15:3, Matt. 15:34, Matt. 16:9, Matt. 16:13, Matt. 16:15, Matt. 16:26, Matt. 17:17, Matt. 17:25, Matt. 18:12, Matt. 19:17, Matt. 20:21, Matt. 20:22, Matt. 20:32, Matt. 21:25, Matt. 21:28, Matt. 21:42, Matt. 22:18, Matt. 22:42, Matt. 23:17-19, Matt. 23:33, Matt. 26:10, Matt. 26:40, Matt. 26:53, Matt. 26:54, Matt. 26:55, Matt. 27:46, Mark 2:8, Mark 4:21, Mark 4:30, Mark 4:40, Mark 5:9, Mark 5:30, Mark 5:39, Mark 7:18, Mark 7:18, Mark 8:12, Mark 8:17-18, Mark 8:19, Mark 8:20, Mark 8:21, Mark 8:23, Mark 9:12, Mark 9:33, Mark 9:50, Mark 10:3, Mark 10:18, Mark 10:51, Mark 12:15, Mark 13:2, Mark 14:37, Mark 14:37, Luke 2:49, Luke 2:49, Luke 5:22, Luke 5:23, Luke 6:46, Luke 8:25, Luke 8:30, Luke 8:45, Luke 10:15, Luke 10:26, Luke 10:36, Luke 11:40, Luke 12:14-15, Luke 12:25, Luke 12:57, Luke 14:31, Luke 14:34, Luke 15:4, Luke 15:8, Luke 16:11, Luke 17:17, Luke 18:7, Luke 18:8, Luke 22:27, Luke 22:46, Luke 23:31, Luke 24:17, Luke 24:19, Luke 24:26, Luke 24:38, Luke 24:41, John 1:38, John 2:4, John 3:10, John 3:12, John 4:7, John 5:6, John 5:44, John 5:47, John 6:5, John 6:61, John 6:62, John 6:67, John 6:70, John 7:19, John7:19, John 7:23, John 8:10, John 8:43, John 8:46, John 8:46, John 10:36, John 11:9, John 11:26, John 11:33, John 13:12, John 14:9, John 18:4,7, John 18:11, John 18:34, John 18:21, John 18:23, John 20:15, John 21:5, John 21:17, John 21:22)
If you're praying to anything or anyone, that's definitely attributing great worth to that person or thing. I would not recommend praying to anyone but God.
Apparently, you skipped over the definition of the word "Pray" that I pasted from Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.
Do you have a better, more complete definition?
Did you see the 135 Scripture references I presented that show Christ Himself praying to people??
Perhaps, you should read the post again . . .
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