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The Parenthesis Church

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thomas15

Well-Known Member
....Jesus Christ came to save sinners. No purification by man can achieve that, Israel had 1500 years to obey God and failed miserably.

And the local church you belong to sir, tell me are they in obedience to the laws of Jehovah? Are they observing all the things that Christ commanded?
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Rather than being caustic in your opening, take a firm stand on your own view, and engage those who would disagree on terms and ground in which would edify rather than accuse and condemn.

I am not sure how I could be more firm than I was in the OP. I suspect that many of the Rapture Ready dispensationalists on this Forum had no idea what dispensationalism was all about. Fortunately there is a movement away from the early, classic dispensational view of the Church, called progressive dispensationalism.
 

thomas15

Well-Known Member
....Jesus Christ came to save sinners. No purification by man can achieve that, Israel had 1500 years to obey God and failed miserably.

Yes or No? Does your local Church Old Regular keep the laws of Jehovah and or all the commands of the Lord Jesus?
 

mandym

New Member
>>>>>>

See BB folks, OR's original OP of of the use of the word, heretic, can be applied right back at him, and others who support that view.

A post such as this can be just as inquisitorially read and stated in just as inflaming a rhetoric with a desire for the same results.

OR REALLY didn't want true discussion, or he would have at least been accommodating in his OP in order to not proclaim certain Scriptural judgment upon those who do for Scriptural reasons not agree with him.

Unfortunately, that was not OR's intent - he did not desire discussion. He was accusatory, and desired to shut down discussion. Later, in the thread, he blamed the inflamed retorts as examples of how dispensation thinking folks revert to name calling and demeaning to support their view.

This further distorts the truth of the responses to the thread, and just as this post illustrates, he had no real intent of bringing edification but to proclaim some self righteous assumption that only his thinking was acceptable.

This is exactly right.
 
I would appreciate a post from two types of people. It would be good to hear from a covenant-Arminian and a dispensational-Calvinist.

For what? To see them "duke it out'? :laugh:


I am a covenant Arm, so here is where my studying has brought me to.



Romans 4:9-17
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.


Abraham is the father of many nations, and not just Israel. The promise of God was given to Abraham prior to him being circumcised, also. We who are saved, obtain the promise(s) given by God to Abraham.

Galatians 3:6-14
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


Israel of the OT was a shadow of the church to come in the NT. Now there has always been a "church", whether it was a "called out assembly" in the OT, or the Church, which Jesus established through His work upon the cross. The promise(s) given to Abraham way back then, stand good for the Church now.
 
You make some excellent points there Willis! :thumbs:


See, I am not the "full blown heretic" that some think I am. I just have a blown head gasket....:laugh:


God's promises to OT Israel are for the NT Church, and NOT for Israel AND the Church. Israel and the Church are now "one man", and both have access to the Father through faith in His Son, Who is the Head of His body, the Church.
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Pinpoint please where in Revelation the return of Christ occurs.

....John's account:

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

Couldn't do it, eh?
 

HankD

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Just as a final word which is directly related to the O/P:

IMO, the word "parenthesis" is a very poor choice of words by which to designate the ongoing status of the Church.

Most people connect it in their minds with the grammatical pair of parenthesis around a set of words closely relating it to the preceding idea.

That concept makes it look like the church was some sort of an afterthought or sudden idea of God rather than an historical descriptive adjective in the progressive history (The Bible which is now complete) of salvation.

Rather the church (at the first advent of Christ) was/is a temporal gentile fulfilment of the abrahamic promise to bless both Abraham's seed as well as the gentile nations (goyim).

In this age believing Hebrews come in the same manner as gentiles.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.​

In no manner is/was the church an afterthought or a sudden and brilliant idea on God's part but an integral part of the plan of the redemption of mankind from before the foundation of the world.

Personally I believe it should be officially discarded by dispensationalism (not sure who would do it) as a descriptive word concerning the status of the church (and for the most part it has been).

But there are still a few old Scofield Bibles out there.
Saw one in church about a month ago.

HankD
 

AresMan

Active Member
Site Supporter
See, I am not the "full blown heretic" that some think I am. I just have a blown head gasket....:laugh:


God's promises to OT Israel are for the NT Church, and NOT for Israel AND the Church. Israel and the Church are now "one man", and both have access to the Father through faith in His Son, Who is the Head of His body, the Church.
:thumbs::applause::jesus:
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Just as a final word which is directly related to the O/P:

IMO, the word "parenthesis" is a very poor choice of words by which to designate the ongoing status of the Church.

Louis Sperry Chafer, founder and first president of the Dallas Theological Seminary, and author of a multi-volume set, Systemic Theology agree that the term parenthesis is inappropriate. He writes [Systematic Theology, Vol 4, p41]:
In fact, the new, hitherto unrevealed purpose of God in the outcalling of a heavenly people from Jews and Gentiles is so divergent with respect to the divine purpose toward lsrael, which purpose preceded it and will yet follow it, that the term parenthetical, commonly employed to describe the new age-purpose, is inaccuurate. A parenthetical portion suitains some direct or indirect relation to that which goes beforeor that which follows; but the.present age-prirpose is not thus related and therefore rs more properly termed an intercalation.

Other leading dispensationalists who advocate for the parenthesis Church are:

John F, Walvoord, successor to Chafer at DTS, states [Millennial Kingdom, p230]:.
The evidence if interpreted literally leads inevitably to the parenthesis doctrine.

J. Dwight Pentecost states [Things to Come, p201]:
The church is manifestly an interruption of God’s program for Israel.

Charles C. Ryrie, editor of the Ryrie Study Bible, states [Basis of Premillennial Faith, p136; ]:
The Church age is not seen in God's program for Israel. It is an intercalation. [See also Dispensationalism, p134]​


One sometimes wonders if these men understood that Jesus Christ died for the Church, not Israel!
 
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OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Couldn't do it, eh?

Actually in the last half of Chapter 19. He is here in the last half of Chapter 20 and in Chapters 21 & 22!

But this is not a pre-trib or premillennial return. It is at the end of the age. Until that time Jesus Christ is reigning at the right hand of God the Father!
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Abraham is the father of many nations, and not just Israel. The promise of God was given to Abraham prior to him being circumcised, also. We who are saved, obtain the promise(s) given by God to Abraham.

Israel of the OT was a shadow of the church to come in the NT. Now there has always been a "church", whether it was a "called out assembly" in the OT, or the Church, which Jesus established through His work upon the cross. The promise(s) given to Abraham way back then, stand good for the Church now.

Finally convicted1! Finally!:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
See, I am not the "full blown heretic" that some think I am. I just have a blown head gasket....:laugh:


God's promises to OT Israel are for the NT Church, and NOT for Israel AND the Church. Israel and the Church are now "one man", and both have access to the Father through faith in His Son, Who is the Head of His body, the Church.

Twice in a row!:applause::thumbs::godisgood:
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Actually in the last half of Chapter 19. He is here in the last half of Chapter 20 and in Chapters 21 & 22!

But this is not a pre-trib or premillennial return. It is at the end of the age. Until that time Jesus Christ is reigning at the right hand of God the Father!

Where does it indicate a literal 'physical' return to terra firma?
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Where does it indicate a literal 'physical' return to terra firma?

Revelation 21:1-3
1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them.


"Terra firma" may be somewhat different but He is here. I believe that the last half of Revelation 19 is a picture of the actual return to earth. At the Great White Throne Judgment everything is changed!

Revelation 20:11-15
11. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


That being said lets face it: The mind of man cannot comprehend what it will be like in the presence of God! And that is the truth.
 
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kyredneck

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I saw a new heaven and a new earth [of the new covenant]: for the first heaven and the first earth [of the first covenant] were passed away

I just can't commit to literalize any of the book.
 
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OldRegular

Well-Known Member
I saw a new heaven and a new earth [of the new covenant]: for the first heaven and the first earth [of the first covenant] were passed away

I just can't commit to literalize any of the book.

Literalize where literal is appropriate. That is what I do, at least I try.

There is no doubt that much of Revelation is written in apocalyptic language. In fact it is probable that much of language in the Book of Revelation Chapters 4-22 should not be considered as literal language. That does not mean that apocalyptic language does not teach a literal truth.
 
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