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Rev 1:1

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
The Revelation of Yeshua The Messiah, which God gave to him, to show his Servants what had been given to soon occur, and he symbolized it when he sent by his Angel to his Servant Yohannan,

Semaino: to give a sign, to signify, indicate, to make known

IMO, the entire book is symbolized.

Absolutely. It'll sure give one much to ponder and meditate on.

 

Personally I believe much of Revelation becomes clearer once we take that opening passage into due consideration, that the book is a whole series of signs. These signs point to definite truths of a spiritual nature.

Case in point is this New Jerusalem. I believe, based on the correlation of these Revelation passages with the latter chapters in Isaiah, that we are now in the New Jerusalem.

Not only that, I believe that we are the New Jerusalem. The passage above says as much. We are the Bride of Christ. The New Jerusalem is "prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

 

His disciples say, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no dark saying. Jn 16:29

And I do. This I take very literally:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;,,,,,,, Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev 1: 1, 3

I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown. Rev 3:11

Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe for the earth and for the sea: because the devil is gone down unto you, having great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time. Rev 12: 12

And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. Rev 21:6

And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book.,,,,,,,,,, And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.,,,,,,,, Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.,,,,,,,,,,,,,, He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus. Rev 22:7,10,12,20

He spoke very plainly there. No signs, no symbolism.

 

To my fellow amil Brethern; at what point do you see this earth being destroyed, elements melted with fervent heat, the heavens passing away with a great noise, etc?

 

Willis,

Most amill and post mill see this as happening ....on the last day.

Some....a minority see this language as symbolic of Ot Israel, the government and religious theocracy.....being destroyed, or judged ...and the New Covenant.....coming in it's place.....the most prominent theologian I am aware of who held this view.....was John Owen.

Most see it as a literal renewing and makeover of this sin cursed creation....sort of like how the flood destroyed the world of the ungodly, and Then noah came out of the ark to a "new creation"[in type} more like renewed.
because in the eternal state, the curse is fully removed...it would seem that this burning up, or purging will take place...in any case:thumbs:

here was owens idea....I offer it, I think there is at least a sense in which it has some merit as the Ot passing away was significant....

 

Most likely when Sol turns supernova.....

Thanks for this Icon, I wasn't aware Owens held to this view. It's significant to note that Peter was an apostle to the Jews [of that generation].

49 I came to cast fire upon the earth (read the land); and what do I desire, if it is already kindled?
50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
51 Think ye that I am come to give peace in the earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
52 for there shall be from henceforth five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
53 They shall be divided, father against son, and son against father; mother against daughter, and daughter against her mother; mother in law against her daughter in law, and daughter in law against her mother in law. Lu 12

10 And even now the axe lieth at the root of the trees: every tree therefore that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you in water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you in the Holy Spirit and in fire:
12 whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his threshing-floor; and he will gather his wheat into the garner, but the chaff he will burn up with unquenchable fire. Mt 3

 

Kyred,,,,

I was quite stunned years ago when I first came across this.My first reaction was how could he think this???
but when you go and look at Isa 65, 66 ...it gets some support. So , now i give each view a look, and sort of keep them on the back burner,but still available....The change from ot/nt was a radical change, and some of the language used in the OT....can only be explained as some of these men have set it out. At this point i am not settled on this.This might be a case of the text having some application, at the very least.:wavey::wavey:

 

What do you mean by "finally"? That I finally addressed the OP in the way you hoped someone would? Or that I finally got something right in your eyes? :laugh: I am guessing the latter moreso than the former.

 

So Brother Iconoclast, wouldn't your position be more inline with the historical pre-mill position, moreso than the amil? This is what I have garnered from what Owens posted.

 

Brother Baker,

Trying to figure out how this is accomplished, the end time events, is something that has caused me much confusion as to what happens, and when.

I used to think the world would be burned up, and then Christ would return to gather His children, but if that were the case, then how could they come from their graves if the world is already burnt? So I kinda see it like this: The last trump sounds, and Jesus comes in the Cloud(1 Thess. 4), the dead in Christ rise first and met Jesus in the air(cloud). Then the rest of the unsaved dead are risen up, and their guilty sentence is renderded before the Great White Throne(Matt. 25, Rev. 20), and they are cast into the Lake of Fire, along with Satan and his minions. The world is then obliterated with fire from heaven, and we return to heaven in the Cloud to be forever with our Triune God. How does this sound?

 

Preterists hold to Owen's view of the passage, and I doubt he had ever heard of preterism. Kinda like Phillip Mauro or Adam Clarke, two sources often quoted by preterists and most likely neither of them had ever heard the term in their lives.

 

Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

This is presently taking place in the world. The church is being called out to rule with Christ when he comes to sit on the throne of his glory. The prophets agreed that this would take place, that is the calling out a people for his name from among the Gentiles/heathen. They will not rule with him until after their resurrection. Jesus calls this the age to come in Luke 20 and the same time period he calls following him in the regeneration in Matthew 19:28.

I would think that Acts 15:16 is speaking of this same time period. After this. that is after he has called out a people for his name he will return and rebuild the house of David which is fallen down, that is the throne of David, the throne of Christ's glory. There is going have to be someone to rule over.

Verse 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

It appears to me that people will be able to come to the Lord at this time. Notice they seek not only the Lord but the Lord and the people called for his name. What do kings do? What do priests do? Will this be a time of proper education? I think an interesting thought is what order will these priest be after. Melchisedec or Levi? Where will Satan be at this time? What will he be doing relative to the residue of mankind?

Will the residue of mankind be marrying and having children at this time?
What about those ruling with Christ?

 

A lot odf this entire discussion revovoles around HOW to view the prophetic word of God!

is it to be seen as fully fulfilled, using allegory and spiritualising terms/events?

Or will it be literally fulfilled?

Still trying to see how ome casn view as NOW in the Millinium reign of Christ, with NO change on the conditions here on earth since his acension?

As I still see a future physical resurrection of the saints at return of jesus, and still see the need to have Him rule over thos world system AFTER he puts them all down...

bottom line to me is that this world is NOT being run as if the messianic Kingdom is alreasdy in place here, at least NOT the way described in the Bible!

 

Would you compare the above statement with my post from Acts 15:14-17?

Is God currently through taking out a people for his name?

So you believe Jesus is currently ruling and the ones ruling with him are those he called and have died? Has 1 Thess. 4:13-18 already taken place?

From that passage just when will the dead in Christ ever more be with the lord?

If I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you unto myself that where I am there ye shall be also.

Has he come again and received unto himself? If so, when did this take place?



I am going to start a thread with questions concerning a passage that I covet all's thoughts. Questions concerning Heb. 2:5 and following.

 

When that one resurrection took place and we agree there has been up to this present time only one, firstborn from the dead and that was Jesus of Nazareth the Son of Man the Son of God.

There was a prophesy made in the Old Testament concerning this resurrection by the prophet David of which Peter quoted on the day of Pentecost. It was relative to two aspects of the once living soul, Jesus, who a moment before dying had commended his spirit, (his life) into the hands of the one who had begotten him as the anointed, who had come in the flesh.

1. Was Jesus the soul. The person who some loved and others hated but was now dead.
2. The flesh and blood body, the earthly house of tabernacle, of the soul that is subject to be dissolved, that is corruptible.

1. Jesus the soul would not be left dead in Hades.
2. His flesh would not see corruption. Called the sure mercies of David, of which David never experienced.

The soul Jesus and the body incorruptible were resurrected from the dead by his Father God by the Spirit of God the Father. The dead soul Jesus was renewed with the Spirit Holy in an incorruptible body of flesh and bone.

2 Tim 4:1 I charge [thee] therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

I believe it is the soul and the body that is resurrected/changed and enters the kingdom of God at his appearing.

That takes place simultaneously. Speaking to the church.
2 Thess 1:4,5 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Where is Jesus presently?

Just my thoughts. I also do not have a clear understanding of it all.

 

For anyone to think that we are presently living in the Kingdom (the millennium) is just unbelievable to me. Our world is dominated by evil and darkness. Just watch the news. The devil is still prowling around seeking those whom he can devour. He is certainly not bound.