The Particular Mercy of God

[37818]

I do believe Children are born in sin but not born sinners.

So am I to understand that knowledge of good and evil ended with the death of Adam and Evil, and you are an advocate Pelagianism?

 

[MB]

Your false and empty reply demonstrates why you cannot find truth on these matters.
Not one thing quoted suggests what you say.
Have you worked through the quote with an open bible considering the verses.....no.
Can you go over line by line and show what you object to....no.
Why not try something?
Post on other topics and offer something biblically valuable.
That might try and establish some credibility which you do not have.
Show you can make biblical sense in contrast to trying to throw stones at bible believers who are Calvinists.
The quote offered has many verses....you offer none.

I do not accept Calvinism because I do not wish to be anything like you. You falsely accuse me every time you post to me. Your so full of hatered of anyone who disagrees with you. just like the Pharisee's. You believe Calvinist are the only ones saved. Just like the JW"s everyone else is absolutely wrong. Calvinism is all about self.
MB

 

[MB]

So am I to understand that knowledge of good and evil ended with the death of Adam and Evil, and you are an advocate Pelagianism?

I can't help but notice you have decided to assume what I believe. If I'm a pelagian then you are to The knowledge of good and evil is out there for everyone to know This knowledge does not have to be place in infants. As soon as they begin to understand language they hear of it and experiment. To say babies are sinners is ridiculous. You can't see there hearts, but you're assuming you have the knowledge of God by making such statements
You can't prove your theory so now like the Calvinist you attack me with insults accusing me of pelagianismm. Just so you have something else to accuse me of I do not believe babies go to hell because of someone else's sins either..
MB

 

[MB]

The links I post are loaded with scriptural truth.
They are intended to be food for the sheep.
You have no appetite for truth.
Perhaps you can search out those other websites that offer goat food and carnal philosophy.

I disagree. I'm here to oppose your Calvinism because I do not believe one word of it. You have failed to prove any of it..
MB

 

[37818]

I can't help but notice you have decided to assume what I believe. If I'm a pelagian then you are to The knowledge of good and evil is out there for everyone to know This knowledge does not have to be place in infants. As soon as they begin to understand language they hear of it and experiment. To say babies are sinners is ridiculous. You can't see there hearts, but you're assuming you have the knowledge of God by making such statements
You can't prove your theory so now like the Calvinist you attack me with insults accusing me of pelagianismm. Just so you have something else to accuse me of I do not believe babies go to hell because of someone else's sins either..
MB

Do you consider yourself a Pelagian or not and why?
For the recorded I am of the point of view that the knowledge of good and evil is the cause of Adam and Eve's spiritual death and the spiritual death of all who are conceived except Christ. Your agreement with my understanding is not required for me.

 

[MB]

So am I to understand that knowledge of good and evil ended with the death of Adam and Evil, and you are an advocate Pelagianism?

Just like a Calvinist you are assuming and insulting. I've never acknowledged any of your nonsense. I never said evil ended with Adam and Eve. You said that.
You still have not proven you assumption that babies are sinners because they inherited Adam's sin. You haven't proven anyone inherited sin from anyone.So stop making statements like there in scripture when they aren't.
MB

 

[MB]

Do you consider yourself a Pelagian or not and why?
For the recorded I am of the point of view that the knowledge of good and evil is the cause of Adam and Eve's spiritual death and the spiritual death of all who are conceived except Christ. Your agreement with my understanding is not required for me.

No I'm not, Are you a Calvinist?
MB

 

[Bible Scanned]

Can you show any scripture that says we have inherited Adam's sin?

Whether rightly or wrongly, I've always link Adam's sin to the doctrine of Total Depravity (which I agree with), because Adam's sin is the original cause:

Romans 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

To me, Adam = mankind.

@MB (I added this to my reply above):

I believe the above is also why Paul tells us,

Romans 2
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

We are all guilty.

 

[MB]

Whether rightly or wrongly, I've always link Adam's sin to the doctrine of Total Depravity (which I agree with), because Adam's sin is the original cause:

Romans 5
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

To me, Adam = mankind.

@MB (I added this to my reply above):

I believe the above is also why Paul tells us,

Romans 2
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

We are all guilty.

You believe in total inability as well then because this is what total depravity is. You believe you have to be regenerated first inorder to believe.
Am I right?
MB

 

[Bible Scanned]

Here's where we will disagree.
You wrote:

When I read the bold, I see you presenting a God who leaves things out of control and hopes in the chaos that humans will wilfully choose Him over other Gods.

Well no, I don't think God "leaves things out of control" - God always has control. But I see it like this:

Before the flood, there was a great big ship being constructed on a plain somewhere in the Middle East. Anyone who at the preaching of Noah believed, was welcome to enter it. Yet only 8 people did. I believe it's not that God did not want the rest (or as many as possible) to repent of their wickedness and unbelief and get themselves into the ark and be saved, but that He had judged the world and decreed to end all flesh 120 years before the flood came - but the door of the ark remained open until the day God Himself shut the door:

Hebrews 11:7
"By faith Noah, having been warned by God of things not yet seen, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

It was because of their unbelief that those who perished were not in the ark. Their unbelief condemned them:

John 3:17-19
"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

I do believe that God knew before the foundation of the world who would and would not believe (and why they refused to believe) - but that's the thing - Jesus does not say that the reason they do not believe is because they are not called or given witness - He says that the reason they refuse to believe is because they loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Paul tells us throughout the first 11 chapters of Romans that no one in the flesh will ever do that and indeed they cannot. Therefore Paul tells us about election and predestination, starting in Romans 8, and lays out that God chose Jacob and not Esau, before they had ever done anything wrong (Romans 9). Such election is from before the foundation of the world. Jesus tells us in John 6, 10 and 17 that only the sheep his Father has given him will hear his voice. Jesus tells us that he will ransom everyone of his sheep and not one will perish (2 Peter 3:9 is a promise to the elect, not a universal statement to all mankind. The context of 2 Peter 2 and 3 confirms this interpretation.). The mercy of God is particular to his elect.

Yes, and all that is true - but Jesus tells us in John 3:19 why not everyone will hear, repent, believe and submit to Christ. They choose not to enter the only Ark of our salvation, because they loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

To me even though God chose in Christ those who would believe even before the foundation of the world, and had foreknowledge of who would be in the Ark of our salvation and who would not, this foreknowledge does not speak of God choosing who would love darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

 

[Bible Scanned]

Welcome to BB.

Thank you

Consider Hebrews 2:16, it does not say He took upon Himself the sons of Adam....but rather it declares He took upon Himself THE SEED OF ABRAHAM.
It was a Covenant death.Now look at all the fine scripture you have offered and see how this blends in very nicely.

But you've left out the rest of the chapter, which says,

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Which people? It's clearly not talking about the Gentiles, but Israel, which shows that there's another fact that you are ignoring - the fact that He is not only of the seed of Abraham, but also the son of Man (Matthew 8:20 and many other verses), the second man and the last Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45, 47) - meaning He came to represent all mankind - all the sons of Adam. He was prophesied to come through the seed of Abraham - but He is also the son of Man.

 

[37818]

No I'm not, A re you a Calvinist?
MB

Well, you did not explain why you are
not Pelagian. And I am not a Calvinist. Though some of my beliefs might seem similar. I believe the same Scriptures, but not the same as the Calvinist.

 

[Bible Scanned]

You believe in total inability as well then because this is what total depravity is. You believe you have to be regenerated first inorder to believe.
Am I right?
MB

Yes, I believe that we need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in us so that we can be cleansed from within and through abiding in Christ (the vine) the Holy Spirit produces His fruit (when we are obedient to Him), and for that we need to be born of the Spirit of God from above...

.. and for that we need to be called first:

John 6
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:31-32
"Now is the judgement of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself."

I don't believe that all who are called are chosen - because many refused to believe when they were called, because they loved darkness rather than light (John 3:19).

Only those who hear, repent, believe and submit are chosen - and they were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

 

[MB]

Well, you did not explain why you are
not Pelagian. And I am not a Calvinist. Though some of my beliefs might seem similar. I believe the same Scriptures, but not the same as the Calvinist.

So my question was ridiculous just as yours was. So why ask such an ignorant question?. As far as why I did not explain is because I do not care what a pelagain is. It's an insult because the only man I follow is Jesus Christ. You might follow pelagus I don't know don't care to know as long as what you claim here lines up with scripture. Babies being born sinners is something you need to prove, and you cannot prove this with out scripture. If you have no scripture it's nonsense.
MB

 

[37818]

So my question was ridiculous just as yours was. So why ask such an ignorant question?. As far as why I did not explain is because I do not care what a pelagain is. It's an insult because the only man I follow is Jesus Christ. You might follow pelagus I don't know don't care to know as long as what you claim here lines up with scripture. Babies being born sinners is something you need to prove, and you canno6t prove this with out scripture. If you have no scripture it's nonsense.
MB

Well we have a fundamental problem. So let us deal with it one step at a time.

Genesis 2:16-17, ". . . And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. . . ." What do you understand about that tree? Also God did not make Eve yet (still day six Genesis 1).

 

[AustinC]

Well no, I don't think God "leaves things out of control" - God always has control. But I see it like this:

Before the flood, there was a great big ship being constructed on a plain somewhere in the Middle East. Anyone who at the preaching of Noah believed, was welcome to enter it. Yet only 8 people did. I believe it's not that God did not want the rest (or as many as possible) to repent of their wickedness and unbelief and get themselves into the ark and be saved, but that He had judged the world and decreed to end all flesh 120 years before the flood came - but the door of the ark remained open until the day God Himself shut the door:

Hebrews 11:7
"By faith Noah, having been warned by God of things not yet seen, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

It was because of their unbelief that those who perished were not in the ark. Their unbelief condemned them:

Indeed, everyone's unbelief condemns them. Romans 3, No one seeks after God, not even one.

They did not believe precisely because God gave them up to their sins and chose not to mercifully have them believe. God was under no obligation to mercifully save them. Yet, God, fulfilling his will and purpose, saved Noah and his family. God moved Noah and family to believe. Jesus uses the term "draw", which means to drag up, like a bucket out of a well draws up water. The water doesn't choose to go up the well, indeed it cannot because it is a slave to gravity. But a more powerful force can draw it up. That's what God does for all whom he chooses.

John 3:17-19
"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

I do believe that God knew before the foundation of the world who would and would not believe (and why they refused to believe) - but that's the thing - Jesus does not say that the reason they do not believe is because they are not called or given witness - He says that the reason they refuse to believe is because they loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Amen

Mankind, by nature is evil and will never choose God.

Romans 8:5-8 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Yes, and all that is true - but Jesus tells us in John 3:19 why not everyone will hear, repent, believe and submit to Christ. They choose not to enter the only Ark of our salvation, because they loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Amen, their very nature gives them only one choice. Rebellion and condemnation. Such were both you and me until God chose to draw us out of the well of our own sin. God must choose, because we will not.

To me even though God chose in Christ those who would believe even before the foundation of the world, and had foreknowledge of who would be in the Ark of our salvation and who would not, this foreknowledge does not speak of God choosing who would love darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Romans 9 does exactly that. It tells us that God chooses, before anyone can do either good or bad. From the end of Romans 8 through Romans 11, Paul walks us through God's election of both Jew and Gentile.

The mystery of how God does this election is not revealed to us. That is for the Sovereign King. What we know is that whosoever believes will be saved. The whosoever is the elect, the ones God chose from before the foundation of the world.

You leave a little wiggle room for mankind to cooperate with God. God doesn't give that wiggle room. He tells us that no one cooperates with God outside of Christ Jesus. No one seeks God. There is no wiggle room. We were all dead in our trespasses and sins until God made us alive with Christ. By grace you were saved. (Ephesians 2:1-9)

 

[MB]

Yes, I believe that we need the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in us so that we can be cleansed from within and through abiding in Christ (the vine) the Holy Spirit produces His fruit (when we are obedient to Him), and for that we need to be born of the Spirit of God from above...

.. and for that we need to be called first:

Let me explain what I believe. I believe a man must repent of his sins and believe in Christ. Paul wrote;

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

I was drawn, convicted of my sin. The hearing of the gospel gave me faith and the Holy Spirit convinced me of Christ as Savior. I was saved by Jesus Christ. Not the holy Spirit.as some here claim. Of course the Holy Spirit had a lot to do with it. Never the less it's called a relationship with the Lord and I had a choice. That choice was to believe or not to. I was 14 years old at the time. A relationship is a mutual agreement.

John 6
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who has sent Me draw him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:31-32
"Now is the judgement of this world. Now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw all to Myself."

I don't believe that all who are called are chosen - because many refused to believe when they were called, because they loved darkness rather than light (John 3:19).

Only those who hear, repent, believe and submit are chosen - and they were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

I do not believe this choosing is being elect as the Jews are and I didn't exist before the foundation of the world. I know I'm saved because I believe and the Bible tell me so We are chosen that we should be holy and without blame before him in love Eph 2:5
MB.

 

[MB]

Well we have a fundamental problem. So let us deal with it one step at a time.

Genesis 2:16-17, ". . . And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. . . ." What do you understand about that tree? Also God did not make Eve yet (still day six Genesis 1).

You answer some of my questions first. Where is your proof of men inheriting Adam's sin. and that Babies are born sinners.
MB

 

[1689Dave]

There is a difference between choosing to attempt something and the success of the attempt. Failure to succeed is not the same has having no free will to desire success. We might struggle against the flesh and fail, but the desire to overcome it is an attitude of free will. So there is nothing to prevent man from choosing to seek God after understanding the witness of creation. To those who seek, God will not fail to reveal his Gospel at which point the seeker has another choice to make, whether or not to believe the Gospel. Many turn back at this point but some do not turn away but believe. God saves those who choose to believe.

God foreknew all who would believe and He created a Divine destiny for them (He predestined them).

If you have free will, you control God who adapts His plans to accommodate your choices. And does not know all until you clue Him in. Hint, this is not the God of the Bible by any means. This is not biblical Christianity.

 

[ad finitum]

If you have free will, you control God who adapts His plans to accommodate your choices. And does not know all until you clue Him in. Hint, this is not the God of the Bible by any means.

With all due respect to you, this reasoning is a classic canard. The last sentence of your post is manifestly untrue if God foreknows before we even exist. God chooses to prepare deliverance to those whom he foreknows would seek Him. He is not forced to do this.

God didn't have to provide a destiny of deliverance for those whom He foreknew would seek Him. That fact that he does so, of His free will demonstrates His love, not our manipulation. There is no way were are controlling God in His decision to provide deliverance. God choses to do that from His own motives of Love and He made His choice before we made ours.